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Riven starts agility Saturday


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Im so excited. The open house for the agility place in town is Saturday, and I'll meet a few people I've been talking to on the phone and on line. On Saturday, we'll make plans for the training days and she will officially start. My concern is that she goes dog crazy when she sees other dogs. I know the spray bottle really gets her attention, but if I use it she'll shut down. My question is, is it possible to effectively use it anyway since she's gonna be so hyped up? Would it still shut her down or would it keep her in line? I know thats hard to diagnose, but Im asking opinions. Riven goes crazy over other dogs so much, thats why she cant pass CGC test.

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I would never spray bottle my dog for going gah-gah over other dogs. They key here is that YOU have the be the most exciting thing in the room - always! Whether it's because you have treats or a toy or are dancing around like a clown making baby talk to her the whole time. It can be very tiring for you to keep up your energy the whole session. Be prepared!

 

Agility is always FUN and NEVER punished/corrected. You want your dog to want to do it.

 

You MUST have control over Riven (pretty soon off leash too) to have any type of success in agility. It's just the way the game is played. You can't teach her anything is she's never paying attention to you.

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good on you for starting...

 

kingsley gets hyped up for agility cos i am excited and he's excited.. all the works.. food, toys... praise... etc.. and he does leave the other dogs( except when he is tied up waiting for his turn and his nemesis shows up) and pay attention to me cos his focus is on me...

 

we are working on attention on me at all times though.. and using the leave it command

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I would never spray bottle my dog for going gah-gah over other dogs. They key here is that YOU have the be the most exciting thing in the room - always! Whether it's because you have treats or a toy or are dancing around like a clown making baby talk to her the whole time. It can be very tiring for you to keep up your energy the whole session. Be prepared!

 

Agility is always FUN and NEVER punished/corrected. You want your dog to want to do it.

 

You MUST have control over Riven (pretty soon off leash too) to have any type of success in agility. It's just the way the game is played. You can't teach her anything is she's never paying attention to you.

 

Good point. The guy said he's totally positive, so you're right he wouldnt approve of that. I hate the whole treat idea, I dont want to start an arguement, but I hate treating because of good behavior. However, in this case, I guess I need her to listen no matter what huh? But in thinking about her positive obedience training, even with treats, she didnt care she wanted at the dogs. She just sniffs and checks them out then wants left alone.. what is her issue? I dont know what would keep her attention on me using only positives... this is gonna be hard for me since treats and the ball probably wont work (well...hasnt in the past)

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I hate the whole treat idea, I dont want to start an arguement, but I hate treating because of good behavior. However, in this case, I guess I need her to listen no matter what huh? But in thinking about her positive obedience training, even with treats, she didnt care she wanted at the dogs. She just sniffs and checks them out then wants left alone.. what is her issue?

 

The goal of agility is fun for both of you! It's your job to figure out how to make it fun for her so you'll both enjoy it. I'd try not feeding her for a day or so before hand, and then take cooked liver cut into little pieces, hopefully the combination of hungry dog and very yummy treats will help. Treats can go a long way in helping to teach her good behavior in the first place.

 

IT CAN BE WORK to teach a dog to focus. Again, IT CAN BE WORK to teach a dog to focus! It took me a good month of work to get Kipp really interested in toys at home. Now I'm working to build that same intensity to play away from home and with other people. I just keep looking for steady progress, as slow as it may seem at times. You have to make yourself very, very fun and exciting.

 

FWIW, I've been taking Kipp to SAR training once a week for about 4 months. He still goes a bit nutty around other dogs though I do see slow but steady improvement. So good behavior will come with training, even though it seems to be a slow progress at times.

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I bet Riven will be so excited by agility that soon she won't even notice the other dogs. I know you're nervous, but I bet everything will work itself out on the first day. Once she realizes it's FUN FUN FUN she will ignore the other dogs and focus on you. Keep us informed and remember to have fun!!!

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Good point. The guy said he's totally positive, so you're right he wouldnt approve of that. I hate the whole treat idea, I dont want to start an arguement, but I hate treating because of good behavior. However, in this case, I guess I need her to listen no matter what huh? But in thinking about her positive obedience training, even with treats, she didnt care she wanted at the dogs. She just sniffs and checks them out then wants left alone.. what is her issue? I dont know what would keep her attention on me using only positives... this is gonna be hard for me since treats and the ball probably wont work (well...hasnt in the past)

 

When you're training focus, rate of reinforcement is key, and if she isn't keen enough with toys, how is she going to decide that you're so much cooler than any of those exciting other dogs on the field? I know what you mean about not wanting to "bribe" her to behave, but when there's no middle ground between shutting down and not caring about anything other than the rest of the class, it's almost unfair for you to just expect perfect behavior. Lower your expectations and set her up for success. Be totally proud of her when she looks back at you and treat her like she's done the most amazing thing ever! Agility is supposed to be fun! Just skip her dinner before agility class and use treats to motivate your hungry girl. She'll learn that agility is so much more fun if she's paying attention to her person, being praised, and having fun instead of looking at boring other dogs and getting scolded! :rolleyes:

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Donna,

You're getting some good advice. No spray bottle and get Riven more excited about seeing you instead of the other dogs. It takes time but it's possible.

 

Jake and JJ were both like that. I was lucky to have DH with me when we took JJ to his obedience classes. He would listen to the instructor while I would go thru commands with him. JJ had to learn more commands than the others in class because as soon as we would stop to listen to the instructor, he would try to go exploring or say 'hello' to the others.

 

Because we had taken JJ to 3 obedience classes, I knew what to do with Jake. He was great at learning his commands. Unfortunately, he thought the dogs next door were more exciting. No matter how good he was in the house, once he was outside and the next door neighbors dogs were out, we no longer existed. The straw that broke the camel's back was when we took the boys to an agility event and Jake slipped out of his gentle leader harness and ran across the course because the poodle that was running the course was barking and he thought it was a 'squeaky toy'. I was horrified! I signed Jake up for obedience classes right after that specifically because of his obsession with other dogs. We had the same instructor we had with JJ, so she didn't get upset when I wasn't paying attention. She knew why I was there. She knew I knew what I was doing. And she knew bc's. Jake graduated from all 3 classes top of his class. In fact, the night he graduated from his 3rd class, he even blew away the class. He was the only one who executed his routine perfectly.

 

How many obedience classes did you take Riven to? How often does he see other dogs away from home? I believe he needs to be exposed to others while you learn to draw his attention away from them. I know you don't want to treat him for being good but look at it like teaching him not to be food aggressive. If you wanted to teach him to let you take his food away, you would replace it with something else he likes, right? What you could try is buy a different kind of dry dog food to use as a treat. When he notices another dog, draw his attention away with the dog food. You're just replacing one thing he like with another. It takes time and it takes patience but it can be done and you can do it.

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I dont know what would keep her attention on me using only positives... this is gonna be hard for me since treats and the ball probably wont work (well...hasnt in the past)

My preference is to tug with my dog when I possible (that is, the instructor isn't talking, or we're not walking the course, or building a squence, etc.). Tug, for us, is more interactive than shovelling cookies, and the ball can be too distracting as it tends to bounce in and amongst other dogs, which is not a good thing.

 

When I can't interact with her, I put her in a crate or otherwise remove her from the stimulus. I wish Northof49 would answer this thread, as she gives EXCELLENT seminars on impulse control, and I promise with my NEXT agility dog, I will train impulse control FIRST so I don't have to resort to these management techniques!

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Impulse control, you say ...... Oh, yes, Northof49, do come our with some suggestions on that = my 5 year old boy is a total loony near agility equipment - total obstacle focus - although I'm starting to be able to get a hold of his brain a bit. :rolleyes:

 

Yes, I'd endorse tug as a way of keeping Riven's focus on you, Donna - and crating Riven when you need to be paying attention yourself. You can get some great tug-leads, so you don't have your hands too full.

 

I wonder at your saying you don't like giving treats for good behavior - do you mean, you don't like luring, or you don't like rewarding? Do you get paid at work? Just a thought. You will likely find that you will be asked to both lure and reward while you're learning agility with Riven - and there is definitely a place for toys too, but with food you can get a high rate of reinforcement, without breaking the flow of what you're doing.

 

As you say, if you're going to a positive training set-up, you'll maybe need to be open to new ways of thinking about the training game. Above all, have fun - and remember, too much motivation is better than not enough.

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I've been to classes with a BC who isn't so much happy to see dogs as really angry. The dog is highly reactive and wants to go after anything that moves the wrong way. The handler does an AMAZING job keeping him focused by bringing a tug toy on a short braided rope, and using that to both get/keep his attention and to reward him. Any time the dog gets distracted, she squeaks or shakes the toy, and the dog returns his attention immediately.

 

Don't know if your dog is toy-crazy... food works for Buddy... but maybe something like that?

 

Mary

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I bet Riven will be so excited by agility that soon she won't even notice the other dogs. I know you're nervous, but I bet everything will work itself out on the first day. Once she realizes it's FUN FUN FUN she will ignore the other dogs and focus on you. Keep us informed and remember to have fun!!!

 

Just be aware that this isn't always the case. Some dogs will become SO aroused and SO over the top that they then can't learn or respond to their owner. I am going through that with Blaze right now. We started a very beginners agility foundation class and we ended up not even being able to stay in the building as he got SO over the top and over aroused by moving dogs.

 

I am now starting focus and control stuff with him. There is a new book out that is getting rave reviews and is excellent ... Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. It is available at www.cleanrun.com and, I believe, www.dogwise.com

 

I am half way through the book right now, but it has a lot of exercises to get the dog to learn how to control him/herself. Lots of good stuff in there ... even stuff that makes it easier to live with the dog such as going to a mat to settle or to have control when exiting out the front door.

 

When I can't interact with her, I put her in a crate or otherwise remove her from the stimulus. I wish Northof49 would answer this thread, as she gives EXCELLENT seminars on impulse control, and I promise with my NEXT agility dog, I will train impulse control FIRST so I don't have to resort to these management techniques!

 

Amen to that!!! Luce and Princess learned some measure of control and the rest I could manage very easily. This time with Blaze, however, management ends up being not participating in class and him in his crate in the car. Not quite what I had in mind. :D

 

Luce was very reactive to moving dogs, but is on the low end of intensity, drive and activity for a border collie so I was able to work through it. Same with my first agility dog, Princess. Blaze, however, is a VERY intense dog and can ramp up out of control very easily. He likes to tug, but in a class situation, at this point in time, that gets him even "higher". A dog that is that aroused can not focus and can not learn. He is so over threshold that he will only take treats at the very beginning ... but after a minute or so, will no longer take treats or tug. He will always focus on his ball, but I can hardly throw that in a class situation :-)

 

Once Blaze learns some control and learns to NOT get so aroused in a class situation, THEN he will be able to focus on me and agility. And I do have hope ... I know someone with a dog who reacted like Blaze does who took classes from the Control Unleashed author and can now walk her dog around the ring and take agility classes, and, I believe, will start competing this fall. I have done some agility with him in my yard and he is "getting" it to the point that he will now occasionally take a jump or tunnel while going for his ball. Luce will usually take a jump in that situation. He is starting to learn that this agility stuff might be fun ... not as much fun as his ball of course, but still fun :D However, at this point, as he gets so aroused in a class situation, he can't learn anything at all. He just isn't "there" for me at all.

 

Luce doesn't fit the mold of a typical border collie. The common perception is that border collies come prewired to chase a ball/frisbee or to tug. Not Luce. I had to teach her to retrieve (and she won't retrieve a ball .. I think she has only ever had a ball in her mouth half a dozen times at the most) and she does it at a canter at the most. I had to teach her how to tug. It took weeks and then she would only tug at home. More time and then she would tug outside. Over a year to get her to tug at an agility trial and now she will tug near a ring. However, it is still not the most valuable thing for her, but I did manage to increase the value of tugging for her and use it in training when I want her to be more "up".

 

My point?? ... oh yeah <g>, it did involve lots of treats at first ... now I don't have to use a treat most of the time when tugging as tugging has become rewarding to Luce on its own. Sometimes she is a tugging maniac and doesn't want to stop ... and I am always thrilled when that happens because a few years ago she wouldn't tug at all, ever, no way, no how. Using treats at first for a new behaviour or trick or obstacle .. nothing wrong with that. Eventually the new behaviour or trick or obstacle can become rewarding on its own. I do still reward very occasionally with treats after tugging or even certain default behaviours such as sit or down as I do believe that learning is a life long process with dogs.

 

Donna, I don't want to scare you off here <g> But please, please, please don't be afraid to use treats for agility and this kind of thing! When a dog is learning something, they need to "get" something out of it, they don't work for free. For some dogs, verbal praise is good, for others it is a toy, and for others treats are good. Agility, obedience, trick training are not something these dogs do naturally (as compared to, say, herding) and you need to let them see that it is worthwhile. You won't be stuffing treats in her mouth forever, I promise :D

 

Wow ... this is very long. Sorry .... I got woken up early this morning and couldn't get back to sleep so I am on my third cup of coffee :rolleyes:

 

Helen

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I can't believe how dogs are so different. Mine have never really worked for treats. They enjoy the praise more. Now Usher is quite the strange mix in my group I've had. The tennis ball keeps his attention more. I don't have to bounce it or anything, just hold it and he'll follow me or anyone with it. If I give him a treat during obedience, it's kind of "well, thanks", it's good, but I'd rather you tell me I did a good job then get that small piece of whatever you gave me. So, I guess you have to figure out what Riven REALLY likes and work with that, weather it be tug- I see alot of that on TV. Or praise or sneaking treats to help her find the contact area when she's beginning.

P.S. Take your camera.

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