biting

[shebec]

Another thing Sheena does is when she takes one of my son's stuffed animal, she will go behind the couch with it. She nips all the time, but when I lean over the couch to pull animal out of her mouth, she growls her mean growl and she bit me. I've had her since she was 8 wks old and she's 17 wks old now. Is this normal?

[MaggieDog]

I bet she's testing her limits - have you done any work w/ trading toys for treats or better toys? This would be where I'd start if it were me - it also is a good way to teach 'drop it' or 'give' commands and you end up with a dog that loves to have you take things away.

[Beth G]

I am under the strong impression that EVERY dog would nip us and be alpha(even the most submissive dog!)if they could get away with ...lol. Because that's how the dog mind works. They are always pushing their limits to see what rung of the social ladder they belong on and if they can get an upgrade.

 

And I have found that with every pup I have raised,that in certain situations like the one you just described, it seems to me, like a(gentle) alpha roll is the best way to go to make your point to the dog.

 

It shows the asap who is boss and instantly straightens out your dog's status in their eyes.

 

Now if you have an aggressive dog, or a full grown dog doing this, then I do not recommend doing this. It would be best to call in a trainer in that case.

 

But I agree, I would work on the give command and praise or treat when the dog releases things into your hand.

[Lunar]

Originally posted by Beth G:

I am under the strong impression that EVERY dog would nip us and be alpha(even the most submissive dog!)if they could get away with ...lol. Because that's how the dog mind works. They are always pushing their limits to see what rung of the social ladder they belong on and if they can get an upgrade.

I would disagree with this - there are many submissive dogs who feel a great deal of anxiety if they are pushed into an alpha role. Zoe's one of those - she sees how much she can get away with sometimes (getting into things, etc), but she is VERY happy to have the lowest rung. Some dogs aren't meant to be leaders.

 

Though this obviously isn't the type of dog at hand. A small puppy growling is testing his limits and seeing where in the pack he's going to fit - you just have to make it VERY clear to him that it's not acceptable and you ARE in charge. A small puppy is easy to physically control - I'm probably not the best one to talk, but if a pup did that to me I'd grab him by the scruff and give a (light!) shake and growl at him. Make sure you nip this in the bud now, before he matures.

[CoRayBee]

I agree with Natalie...not every dog would be comfortable on the top rung of the social ladder. Barra is top dog but defers to me in just about everything.

 

Your puppy needs to learn asap that she is NOT in charge...of anything. Everything in the house belongs to YOU, most importantly the toys and the food.

 

Here is a great article you may want to read. While I don't necessarily agree with the auther on every subject, this one is spot-on IMO. Hope it helps shed some light on things. Good luck.

http://www.leerburg.com/puppygroundwork.htm

[WyoBC]

I know I don't have a border collie yet, and I don't want to try to look I know how they are, but I agree that I would stop it before it got to far. We did it with both our dogs and it worked pretty good. God Bless

[Beth G]

I'm sorry. I should have reworded that. I think that most dogs would like to be higher up on the ladder, but not all. Not meant to offend.

[shebec]

What is an alpha roll?

[Beth G]

An alpha roll is when the top(alpha) dog rolls another lesser (omega) dog. To mimic this people will gently scruff the dog and force it into a roll and then pin it to the ground when they discipline it. This clarifies to the dog who is boss, in canine language. This practice it not however, recommended for every dog.

[Kyrasmom]

I'm trying to keep this in context, but we have a 17 week old puppy who is growling and being defensive, and as per another post, barking in excess.

 

I'm going to assume, and maybe incorrectly, that this puppy is just not being socialized/trained/interacted with or in the right manner enough.

 

I don't agree with the gentle alpha roll simply because I question the poster's ability to know if it's really necessary, much less administer it in a timely, albeit gentle, manner. When I handle puppies, I always cuddle and play and they often end up on their back, not as a correction, but simply as a way to let them know it's OK and it's Safe.

 

Shebec, why don't you tell us a little bit more about your dog, how and what you're training, how much time you spend together with your pup and more importantly, what you do with your pup.

 

Knowing that, it'll be easier to know how to answer both of your posts without assuming the worst incorrectly.

 

Maria

[CoRayBee]

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I'm trying to keep this in context, but we have a 17 week old puppy who is growling and being defensive, and as per another post, barking in excess.

 

This description doesn't sound like the puppy in the original post. What, exactly do you mean by 'being defensive?'

 

The suggestions we've offered can only be with regards to what's in the original post. From the description it sounds like the o/p's puppy is not being defensive; rather, it sounds like a confident, possessive puppy who believes she is higher rank than most of her family. There is nothing wrong with that in itself- I've had very submissive puppies and I've had one who pushed every button possible (and when she was finished pushing those buttons she invented more.) It's just what some puppies do. BUT..it needs to be properly handled right away if the people involved don't want to end up with an out-of-control dog a year from now.

 

(...and if a person does not know what an 'alpha roll' is, it's much better not to try it. Trainers are all over the board on whether this actually works.)

 

IMO puppies need crystal clear rules and, when necessary, discipline. They also need an equal amount of praise and affection. I hope I didn't come across as harsh- that wasn't my intention. It's just very sad when people choose not to do their puppy-raising homework and then give the dog up when it becomes too much for them to handle. Hopefully this won't be the case this time.

[Kyrasmom]

Originally posted by CoRayBee:

Originally posted by Kyrasmom:

I'm trying to keep this in context, but we have a 17 week old puppy who is growling and being defensive, and as per another post, barking in excess.

 

This description doesn't sound like the puppy in the original post. What, exactly do you mean by 'being defensive?'

Defensive was the wrong choice of words but a person leaning over a couch, presumably over a puppy, could put a dog into defensive mode. There are better, more effective ways, of training a puppy to give up a toy than reaching over and grabbing it.

 

And how is a puppy supposed to know which toys are his if they're so obviously within reach? He must be taught.

 

I think for the most part the suggestions given are fine if the original poster has some dog experience and knows the difference between a dominant puppy and one who is making up the rules as he goes along because nobody else is doing it for him. He's entertaining himself by snatching toys (where are his?) and barking.

 

He could very well be a dominant puppy...or a really bored one.

 

Maria

[Black Watch Debatable]

Beth G wrote:

An alpha roll is when the top(alpha) dog rolls another lesser (omega) dog. To mimic this people will gently scruff the dog and force it into a roll and then pin it to the ground when they discipline it. This clarifies to the dog who is boss, in canine language.

Jean Donaldson writes:

A linear hierarchy, where the social structure revolves around priority access to resources, was first described in chickens, resulting in the term ?pecking order.? In the 30?s and 40?s a couple of short-term studies of wolf packs were performed and these referred to conflict resolution between members in terms of dominance. One animal was presumed to physically roll another over and pin him or her on the ground to assert rank.

 

What was not known at that time is that appeasement gestures, which inhibit or cut-off aggression in another animal, are willingly offered by the subordinate animal, not forced by the superior. There is not one documented case of a wolf (or a dog) rolling over or pinning another animal on the ground. Nor is there one case of a mother wolf or dog ?scruff-shaking? puppies. LINK.

I can think of a bunch of "experts" I'd butt heads with regarding interpretation of canine behavior and dog training methodology, but Jean Donaldson ain't one of them. Resource guarding/aggression is a common problem, and Donaldson has written an entire book about it. All her books are terrific, and worth a read. In fact, the Culture Clash chapter on socialization should be required reading for all new dog owners.

 

(And having said this, if a healthy, sane, spoiled, four month old pup ever growled and bit me over a toy, my instinctive response would be to cuff the little chucklehead upside the muzzle, snatch him up by his cheek hairs and growl, "Don't you ever, ever, EVER do that again!" And that would be the end of that. [Please, please don't try this at home ] I'm a big fan of the exchange exercises---they really work. Follow the advice in Donaldson's book, and if the problem continues, see a good trainer or behaviorist. You might also want to check out Eileen's post in this thread.)

[Jack & Co.]

I have been out of the loop as far as doggy trends are concerned due to living with an old dog and then grieving for him for so long, so I had never heard of an "alpha roll." My Google search revealed that even the authors of the book that first introduced the idea have changed their position on it and regret that they included it in their book.

[Beth G]

I hope I did not offend anyone with my mention of the alpha roll. It's just that have I've had luck with it when all else failed.

 

I can see why people don't like it though. Others might misuse or abuse with it.

[shebec]

You guys have good advice, but what is an alpha roll? No one answered that. I guess I just have to work with her more. She's only in her crate at night, otherwise she'll pee and poo in the house. But, ever since I got the crate, about 2 weeks ago, she's been meaner. I called the breeders and asked if she'd had her distemper shot and she said yes, and in 6 more weeks, she gets her 2nd shots. She's never mean unless you try to take something away from her that's not hers. I could take her ball away, but if she has my sock or something, that's when she won't give it up and when I try to get it away from her, she does her mean growl and tries to bite me. It's been 2 or 3 times I've been bitten, but only when I try to get MY things away from her. She's starting to scare me.

[Lunar]

Actually Beth answered your alpha roll question, above.

 

Zeeke was the same way with the growling and biting - only when he had something of mine. But he was a year old when we got him, I wouldn't expect that kind of behavior from a 17 week old puppy. I highly suggest you find a behavioralist/trainer to deal with your situation in person if you're reaching the point where you are nervous in that situation, because she's just going to pick up on it and make it worse. Don't let it continue - the older she gets, the worse it's going to get unless you put a stop to it NOW.

[Eileen Stein]

There's nothing wrong with crating her at night. That's a good thing to do. But you need to spend time training her and doing things with her. Training her to do things -- like sit, lie down, stay, walk nicely on a leash, etc. -- builds a relationship where she looks to you to know what she should do. It will carry over, and help you in training her not to do things you don't want her to do. If you don't build that relationship, you're leaving her uncivilized. From her point of view, why SHOULD she give you that sock if she has it and she can find a way to keep it?

 

If you don't know how to train her, you need to find a trainer or a training class where you can learn how, or else read one of the books that tell you how. Some good ones were suggested earlier in this thread. There are tried and true methods to train a dog, and you need to learn what they are. But all of them will require you to spend time interacting with your pup.

 

You also need to find a way to give her some exercise. A growing pup needs exercise, just as a growing kid does. If their energy is all bottled up and never gets released, they can't "calm down." Do you have a fenced yard, or is there a fenced area you could take her to, where you could teach her to fetch a ball or a frisbee? That's helpful in building a relationship with her as well.

 

You may be thinking, "I don't need to hear about all this stuff, I just want to know how to stop her from growling and biting when I take things away from her. That's my only problem." It may be your only problem NOW, but your pup is growing up, and this looks to me like a situation where you'll soon have more problems if you don't start working with her now.

[Kyrasmom]

Hi Rebecca,

 

Thanks for coming back with more information. I can't echo the advice Eileen gave enough, you really need to start working with your dog because it sounds like she's setting her own rules...and believe it or not, this makes for a very unhappy and stressed out dog. Please look for a local training class, not only will it help your dog, it'll also teach you how to correct and/or avoid certain behaviors.

 

Have you had dogs before? I'm not sure I understand your question to the breeder about the distemper shot. At the risk of sounding very simplistic, distemper has nothing to do with her "meanness". Also, if you've had her since she was 8 weeks, and now she's 17 weeks, has she had any vaccinations in the interim?

 

Maria