Rescued BC, need advice on behavior issues

[Guest LJS1993]

Its true, I would never allow that man near a child...... (not the OP's, but my EX), his idea of punishment (dog or child) was to hit it, yell, and scare.....

 

He would actually hit your dog? Man, nothing pisses me off more than child and dog abusers. Both look to the adult/human for leadership and guidance. Furthermore, both will continue to stay loyal to their abuser out of pure love and devotion.

[BC-Liz]

Yes, and many times it reflects on his behaviors and attitudes towards children. Note I said many times.

 

Oh I've already decided if we ever get married I'm never having kids with him unless he changes his ways. I'm no idiot (not that you were saying that). The only way I can show him he's doing wrong is to be a good example. If the dogs respond better to me and he sees how I handle them, maybe he'll pick up on the idea that sugar catches more flies than vinegar.

 

MaryP--I agree, i just need someone else to tell him too. this is why I've asked for our friends help.

[bc4pack]

Just to add my voice to the mix...slow and easy is the way ... working with a shy dog is kinda like watching paint

dry.

 

I also think you'ld find a lot of emotional support as well as a lot of experienced rescuers, trainers and owners

of shy/ fearful dogs if you come over to shy-k9s group.

[OurBoys]

"Oh I've already decided if we ever get married I'm never having kids with him unless he changes his ways."

 

Honey, just some advice from an old lady........Never marry anyone in the first place unless you're wanting to have his kids. I'm not saying having kids is the only reason to marry but if they aren't good father material before getting married, don't expect them to change afterwards.

 

I applaud you for helping a rescued dog.

[BC-Liz]

"Oh I've already decided if we ever get married I'm never having kids with him unless he changes his ways."

 

Honey, just some advice from an old lady........Never marry anyone in the first place unless you're wanting to have his kids. I'm not saying having kids is the only reason to marry but if they aren't good father material before getting married, don't expect them to change afterwards.

 

I applaud you for helping a rescued dog.

 

That's the other thing...I don't plan on having kids. I tell my parents they have their grandkids. They're furry and fetch a ball.

 

But I digress....

[shelb'smum]

And (not trying to harp, just share wisdom learned the hard way...) Don't expect him to change, because he won't unless he wants too..... I spent 2 years trying to get my ex to change... after 3 years.. I figured out that he wouldn't..

 

BUT Good for you for helping her out, if you can keep you man in line ( i suggest a shock collar) you should continue on slowly but surely!

[Shetlander]

Are the dog park and petsmart ideas any good though? feedback please

 

I had morbidly shy sheltie. He came that way at 7 weeks old. He made great progress but it took lots of time and tons of patience. I kept taking him places, having him meet new people, kindly but firmly. At the same time, I still took my cue from him. For instance, there were very few dogs he ever wanted to play with A dog park would have been the worst place for him, especially with how badly behaved dogs can be at those places. On the other hand, rather oddly I thought, he loved pet stores so I always took him along when I needed to go to one. He hated obedience but loved training in agility, which turned out to be one of the best things I could have done for him. I wish I had done clicker training with him because I think that would have been great for him, but this was in my pre clicker days.

 

One of the things I used to tell myself regarding this dog was "He'll always be who he is." He made great strides. He had wonderful days and impressed me with his own brand of courage as he faced the often overwhelming world around him But he was never truly "normal." He had bad days where he seemed to backslide which could be very disheartening. And the progress he made, while huge, took months and years. I think that's what RDM was saying. Your girl will always be who she is. So you work with her, learn from her, train her and grow with her. But she'll probably always have at least a little of that underlying fear. It doesn’t mean she won't be a wonderful dog. She might even end up being your favorite all time dog, just like my shy guy was for me.

 

Give her lots of encouragement, be patient, try to find the right pace for her to try new things (don't push too hard or overwhelm her) and just have fun with her. These shy dogs are special and bring great gifts to those who love them.

[ShoresDog]

I understand the OP's desire to have Masi be more like her other dogs. It's not for OP's sake, really, but for Masi's sake, to be more relaxed, happy and comfortable in her own skin. Even if she may never be as calm and confident as the other two, there are a lot of good suggestions in this thread to help her make progress. Just keep on loving her wherever she gets to!

 

There are two little books that I've read and liked:

 

On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals, by Turid Rugaas. This trainer was mentioned earlier. This book is great because it has a lot of pictures to help you interpret and work with your dog's worried behavior. If there is a Turid Rugaas video, I'd get it if you can, and the suggestion to have BF take a role in using it was excellent.

 

The Cautious Canine: How to Help Dogs Conquer Their Fears, by Patricia McConnell. This is really just a pamphlet, a little instructional manual as it were. Anything McConnell writes is good!

 

[Those book titles are links to Amazon.com pages for each book.]

 

As to the dog park, it would depend on whether it is a smaller, fenced-in space or a large open area. I found that when I'd first gotten Daisy 2.5 years ago, she thought the small enclosed park full of strange dogs was absolutely TERRIFYING! She still does much better if she is allowed to make friends at her own pace and if she knows she has an "escape route."

 

Good luck! Let us know how it's going, eh.

[HHorn]

Oh I've already decided if we ever get married I'm never having kids with him unless he changes his ways. I'm no idiot (not that you were saying that). The only way I can show him he's doing wrong is to be a good example. If the dogs respond better to me and he sees how I handle them, maybe he'll pick up on the idea that sugar catches more flies than vinegar.

 

MaryP--I agree, i just need someone else to tell him too. this is why I've asked for our friends help.

 

You could

1. -print out this thread, Well maybe specific posts

or

2. Spray him in the mouth with bitter apple

 

I have taken my shy Sally to petsmart daycare, but only after she looked a little more comfortable being in the store. Long walks can also help get some nervous energy out. I would take my pups on walks in the late evening so that there was less crowd around in the park.

 

Good luck. My girl took awhile to come around, but my hubby actually likes her and was patient until she came out of her shell. She wasn't abused, but she is just a bit more reserved. I love her for that, since my other dog won't cuddle. This is my Gus, the non cuddler.

[Alaska]

Lots of good advice on this thread...and what a welcome change (from recent threads on this board) to have a reasonable discussion where advice is sincerely asked for and then genuinely considered!

 

I especially want to reiterate the suggestion to join "shy-k9s". You'll be working with this dog for some time to come, and it really helps to have an ongoing support group to help you revise your expections and criteria as she progresses.

 

I also want to suggest that you NOT take her to a dog park. You want to use situations where you can control the level of challenge so that it is appropriate for her level of confidence, and dog parks are exactly the opposite. You don't know what dogs will be there, how many of them, which ones are "safe" for your dog, who brought their own undersocialized dog that snaps at others in hopes it would magically become socialized at the dog park, etc. Also, most dog parks are too small to allow your dog the space she will likely need from stressful situations. Better to set up supervised interactions with people and dogs you know (though not necessarily ones your dog knows), and who understand that the purpose of the meeting is to help your dog take one little baby step forward each time.

 

I'm on the fence about PetSmart. If you go there, be sure not to challenge your dog too much, e.g. by making her squeeze past dogs and people that are clearly making her uncomfortable. On the other hand, by choosing which aisles you walk down, you can do a pretty good job of controlling the level of challenge in that environment. However....

 

Panting, drooling, glazed over eyes, inability to focus on you or accept food, are all signs that a dog is over-stressed.

 

These signals mean you have gone WAY, WAY too far. You need to be watching for much more subtle signals if you want to make progress. Taking the dog to the point of panting, drooling, etc. means she has essentially shut down and is no longer able to learn. Reading/watching material by Turid Rugaas is a really good way to learn how to notice the more subtle, earlier signs of stress. Here is an article by Turid to get you started:

 

Calming Signals - The Art of Survival

 

Wow. About 8 more people posted on this thread just while I was composing this reply. What a great community this can be.

[Alaska]

He thinks he's making her stronger by spooking her. Like she'll eventually grow to not be spooked so easily and thus be a stronger dog. I think that's why he doesn't listen to me when I tell him it only hurts her progress.

It's a matter of degree. Both of you are trying to make her stronger by challenging her, which is good. But you are phasing in the challenges gradually, building on prior successes, whereas he going straight to a really scary level and expecting an instant cure. Not only is that lazy and unrealistic (if you were scared of flying, say, would he just dump you in the open cockpit of a biplane and take you up for a few barrel rolls to get you over it?), but it can backfire and cause the dog to shut down permanently. If he needs proof that this can happen, there are plenty of examples from both the dog world and the human world.

 

And yes, you can (and should) buy a Turid Rugaas video:

 

CALMING SIGNALS: WHAT YOUR DOG TELLS YOU DVD

 

There is a short video excerpt on the site above that shows a couple of the signals (turning head, looking away) and how subtle they are. Your BF (assuming he's still your BF, after all the advice you've gotten here ) might also benefit from watching the DVD, as it might get him out of the "quick fix" way of thinking and more interested in the actual task at hand.

 

A couple more links for you to check out:

 

HELP FOR YOUR FEARFUL DOG: A STEP-BY-STEP GUIDE TO HELPING YOUR DOG CONQUER HIS FEARS (there is also a DVD you can buy to accompany this book)

 

Dogwise's complete list of books and videos on "Problem solving and prevention"

 

ETA: Oh yeah. If you haven't done so already, read this thread:

 

My dog is scared of my boyfriend

[MickeyDogs]

Lots of good advice and good resources coming from this thread so I'll just jump in here with a few suggestions (ok... maybe more than a few )

 

1) Trust. The most important thing you should be fostering in her is trusting you without reservation. The more she trusts you, the more she'll feel secure about what the two of you are doing or what you're asking her to do. Your BF's technique to "toughen her up" while scaring her is also undermining any trust she may have had in him.

 

2) Be self assured and confident yourself when with her, no matter what happens. She'll sense your attitude that will help her feel more secure.

 

3) Don't correct her for her inappropriate actions if they are fear based. Correcting dog that is scared only reinforces the dog's thought that there is something to fear.

 

4) As for the dog parks and PetSmart - you could start out by keeping your distance and just watching the activities. Stand a distance away from the entrance of PetSmart and just have her watch the people and dogs come and go. At the park don't go into the park but stay outside a distance away and again have her watch the activity. Remain at a distance where she is calm but curious. Keep your attitude upbeat.

 

5) Distracting a dog from what frightens her can be a good tool. Use treats or toys. Play with her. You have to catch her the instant she notices the scary whatever and distract her then. If you wait too long she may be too deep in her fear for the distraction to work.

 

6) Handle her as much as you can. During a quiet time of the day start at a spot on her body or head where she likes it the best. (Jill's favorite was having the back of her neck scratched). Start there then soothingly move to another part of her body then back to her more favorite spot. If she gets up and leaves, let her. Try again another day. A lot of fearful dogs are fearful of being touched and this technique will help her see that a doggie massage is a good thing!

 

She's a beauty ! Kudos to you for adopting her. Good luck & keep us posted.

[Pia]

Wow lots of good info on this post and suggestions for material to help.

The one thing I have learned in the past year is that I watched my dogs but never really "saw" the language. Oh sure I knew when my dogs were happy, sad, upset, and all, but my recent experience working with trainers has alerted me to how much I was actually missing that my dog was telling me.

So now I "PAY ATTENTION" and in this situation, Eagle Eyes on her reactions to every situation is essential, for Praise, for backing off, for pushing forward a bit more.

 

Hats off to you for your dedicated commitment to help a less fortunate dog have a happy life.

 

As far as BF and all that, well good luck "training" him too! Sounds like you got two "kids" to train!

 

My experience with my last shy rescue dog was that she improved greatly when I removed both myself and her from X!!! She was always afraid of men. Years later, she became the social butterfly of the neighborhood and enjoyed interaction with other dogs & men too.

I truely believe she could read my tension with the X, and along with removal from the situation came peace for me & her.

 

Good Luck

Pia

[PSmitty]

These signals mean you have gone WAY, WAY too far. You need to be watching for much more subtle signals if you want to make progress. Taking the dog to the point of panting, drooling, etc. means she has essentially shut down and is no longer able to learn.

 

Just to clarify, I also said, in the same post:

 

You want to keep her experiences in new, potentially scary places, short and sweet. End the session *before* she gets to the stress point.

 

Yes, great idea to familiarize yourself with more subtle signs of stress, but I wanted to make sure no one thought I meant that you should stop when you see panting, drooling, glazed over eyes, etc.

[mbc1963]

Oh I've already decided if we ever get married I'm never having kids with him unless he changes his ways.

 

Yikes! Another middle-aged lady here, being a busybody. There's a great quote from Maya Angelou:

 

"When someone shows you who he is, believe him the first time."

 

I think most of us who are a bit older wish we had learned this lesson very solidly and very early.

 

If someone lies to you once, he's showing you that he's a liar. If he cheats on you once, he's showing you that he's a cheater. And, unfortunately, if someone is so - I dunno, macho? - as to be unkind to helpless animals... well, he's showing you something very specific about his character.

 

Good people sometimes make bad decisions, and bad people sometimes make good ones. But I honestly don't think the essential character of a person changes much with age. I have great students whom I respect even though they're 13, and I have others who are already manipulative, weasling cheats. I suspect the great kids will be great adults, and I doubt that the weasling cheats will be much different when they're 45. (I work alongside the adult versions of these idiots.) ::Sigh::

 

I obviously don't know this guy, and you do, and he could be a great guy making a silly decision about the dog. Just be sure to take the evidence he's presenting SERIOUSLY.

 

Mary

[sandyleew]

I also rescued an under-socialized, severely abused dog and it took more than a year for him to even start to come around. It has been 2 years now and only recently have I seen him really relax. Until just a few weeks ago, he would not sleep soundly. He always had his eyes open just a bit so that he could be aware of what was happening around him. It does take a very long time and a whole lot of patience. I don't know if he would have ever been to this point if my husband had not been on board with the way I wanted him handled. If you want this dog to overcome any of this, you absolutely must stop your bf from doing this. If he isn't on board, then tell him not to interact at all. My husband and I never even raise our voices to Brew. It isn't necessary and it sets him back still, 2 years later. He will never be a super confident, social dog like Taz, but I love him for who he is. He may get better as the years go by or he may not. It doesn't matter to me. He is my heart dog. I have a once in a lifetime bond with him that I don't think I will ever find again with another dog. He is definitely a work in progress and probably always will be. As far as dog parks and PetsMart, I still would not attempt to take Brew to either of those places. He just gets too stressed.

[BC-Liz]

Wow, thanks everyone for your advice and stories. After observing her closely last night I think she's farther along than I sometimes see. She's come to the point in our relationship where I can mess with her and she loves it. she's not quite there with Steven yet but I do notice that even after he's startled her, she'll come right back to him if he calls her so there's a bond and trust there too that I may not have conveyed in my original text. I will continue to try and make him understand that he's not to the point in their relationship where he can mess with her and she be alright with it. I think I will also look into those authors and see if I can find that DVD. I think there's signals that she's sending me that I don't reccognize.

 

I wish I had a video of how she really is so everyone knows she's doing well. I know now from hearing everyones stories (and thank you for sharing) that I just need to be patient, loving and supportive and she'll come along at her own pace. Like I said before, I've never had to try and rehabilitate a dog before so I didn't know how long it would take to see her really come around. I suppose being with her everyday it's hard to see drastic changes but our friends that have seen her off and on since we first got her have noticed her huge successes.

 

So thank you again everybody, I really appreciate your help (and so does Masi).

[Pia]

I think there's signals that she's sending me that I don't reccognize.

 

I wish I had a video of how she really is so everyone knows she's doing well. I know now from hearing everyones stories (and thank you for sharing) that I just need to be patient, loving and supportive and she'll come along at her own pace. Like I said before, I've never had to try and rehabilitate a dog before so I didn't know how long it would take to see her really come around. I suppose being with her everyday it's hard to see drastic changes but our friends that have seen her off and on since we first got her have noticed her huge successes.

 

So thank you again everybody, I really appreciate your help (and so does Masi).

 

Yes when you are there day in and out, you dont see the changes, as someone would who only sees her once in a while.

And you are right knowing the signals she is sending is the 'meat & potatoes" of the menu.

This is your first attempt at rehab, oh believe me you will be so thrilled as the years go by, the changes will amaze you, humble you, and create a bond that you may never have with your other well adjusted dogs.

 

I spent most of my life taking care of dogs that no one else wanted, some by chance some because I picked them.

It does not matter that most of them were not BC's, they all shared one thing in common,

they had done something that caused their owner to reject them.

 

As Tucker approaches 1 1/2 years, I watched him tonite, he is getting the Herding "stance" as he plays with me in the yard, waiting for me to throw the frisbee. I think to myself, wow this is what it is like to start with a dog from "scratch"

a puppy, yes from ASPCA, but still a puppy who I had the pleasure of socializing, loving, teaching, and along with him LEARNING.

Do not give up, you will be surprised down the road you even doubted Masi, and you will be proud you took the time to Care!

I don't need a video, I see it in my Mind!

Pia