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Dog Trainer Tamar Geller on 20/20 last night


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http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3321844&page=1 (video on the right side of screen)

 

I was prepared to not like her just because I like Millan. But she actually had good points. I dont think it will work on all dogs, and I think one of her ideas was dangerous but she did have some good ideas.

 

There was a BC and every time they scared it they'd treat it. So according to her the dog would put treats/scary noises together. But I dunno, wouldnt that be just like rewarding it being scared?

 

The one I think was dangerous is this. There was a dog (cant remember what kind but a larger dog) that would nip the kids. So she spread peanut butter on the kids (!) hands and had the dog lick it off. Then as the dog licked it off they'd say "kisses". Might work for this 6 month old puppy the used it on, but I dunno about a truly aggressive dog. That seems asking for trouble.

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She doesn't strike me as all that has been hyped, but I do like her better than Cesar.

 

The scary noise example was interesting - it could work, but I think she was starting at too high an intensity of the "scary thing" for it to work as well as if she had started a bit slower. It won't reward the fear - it's called classical conditioning (like Pavlov's dog) and will ideally condition a different emotional reaction to the noise.

 

The PB thing seemed odd to me - I mean seriously the dog hasn't been taught that nipping is bad, just that people taste yummy and to lick them. Yea licking is good, but nothing has been done to teach bite inhibition and now the dog licks everyone - ick! And yea the PB thing isn't something for an aggressive dog for sure - just puppy nipping.

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There was a BC and every time they scared it they'd treat it. So according to her the dog would put treats/scary noises together. But I dunno, wouldnt that be just like rewarding it being scared?

 

 

 

No. To understand why, you need to understand the difference between operant conditioning and classical conditioning. By pairing the treat with the scary noises she establishes a new association in the dogs mind. scary noises=yummy treats.

 

Wish I had seen the show.

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There was a BC and every time they scared it they'd treat it. So according to her the dog would put treats/scary noises together. But I dunno, wouldnt that be just like rewarding it being scared?

 

What they were trying to do (and it did seem to be working) was classical conditioning, building positive associations. This is often very effective. I find it a useful technique for some situations.

 

There was a dog (cant remember what kind but a larger dog) that would nip the kids. So she spread peanut butter on the kids (!) hands and had the dog lick it off. Then as the dog licked it off they'd say "kisses". Might work for this 6 month old puppy the used it on, but I dunno about a truly aggressive dog. That seems asking for trouble.

 

I hope she wouldn't suggest it for an aggressive dog, but for a boisterous puppy with kids, it seems harmless enough and might be helpful. Of course training and exercise would go a long way with that situation as well (for both dogs and kids :rolleyes: )

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Guest LJS1993
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3321844&page=1 (video on the right side of screen)

 

I was prepared to not like her just because I like Millan. But she actually had good points. I dont think it will work on all dogs, and I think one of her ideas was dangerous but she did have some good ideas.

 

There was a BC and every time they scared it they'd treat it. So according to her the dog would put treats/scary noises together. But I dunno, wouldnt that be just like rewarding it being scared?

 

The one I think was dangerous is this. There was a dog (cant remember what kind but a larger dog) that would nip the kids. So she spread peanut butter on the kids (!) hands and had the dog lick it off. Then as the dog licked it off they'd say "kisses". Might work for this 6 month old puppy the used it on, but I dunno about a truly aggressive dog. That seems asking for trouble.

 

The peanut butter thing is creative, but the scared with treats thing? Come on. I really like Cesar because he has a natural feel for the dogs. I know, someone told me he uses shock collars and beats the Pirate dogs into submission on another forum. But you know, from what I have seen he has some really good ideas and methods. Do I agree that every action is a struggle for dominance? Nope, because I know for damned sure Freckles knows I'm the alpha yet loves to jump and play with me like a dog. I think every trainer has some things you can take and use. Kind of like sports, something I can equate to. In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu you take a little from everybody and make it your own to fit your personality and body. Well same with dogs, take what you like, try it, if it works for your dog use it.

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I used to think that, but after using this technique with my severely fearful dog and watching him become significantly more confident after developing coping mechanisms in situations that once would have incapacitated him, I found that it does not cause the dog to become more fearful.

 

Fear is an involuntary brain response. There is a stimulus (the thing that causes fear) and the brain reacts and sends out the chemicals that cause the physical fear reaction. It's not something that the dog actually chooses.

 

When you are using rewards to reinforce a behavior, you are reinforcing behaviors that the dog is choosing to put forth (example - sit or come when called).

 

Fear is very different because the dog doesn't choose to experience it. So, using rewards to desensitize a dog that is fearful is not going to cause the dog to start "throwing" fear at you. Over time, you can actually "retrain" the dog's brain in a way that their response to a given stimulus is different. So, instead of hiding behind your legs in panic, the dog might learn to look to you for direction calmly.

 

Just feeding a fearful dog isn't a quick fix, though. There is so much more to it. The food is a bridge that builds trust between the dog and handler. What my fearful dog has really learned is that when he is fearful, he can count on me to be in control of the situation, so he can relax. The food is my way of communicating to him that I am, in fact, there and have the situation under control.

 

It's extremely fascinating - at least now that I've seen the results of this sort of desensitization over a long time.

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When River was a nipping puppy, I would tell her 'no bite' sternly, sometime had to hold her snout a sec, and then asked for kisses - saying it in a way to let her know that bite isn't ok, but kisses are. I guess the peanut butter thing is the same concept. I got my idea from the same concept of 'no, you can't chew my shoe, but here's your toy you can chew instead'.

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Guest WoobiesMom

Well put Kristine! I wish my fearful pup was food motivated, it would probably make our work go much more quickly. He's just not there yet. Outside the door to the house, he's just too "aware" if you will, to be interested in the food. We're at the point that he'll take food rewards in the back yard, but nowhere else yet. I'm focusing on the trust building and slow (VERY SLOW) desensitization exercises. There is alot of differing opinions about whether the food reinforces the fear response, but I buy into the concept of building positive associations in the dog's mind between that fearful stimuli and a positive reward. I have a small squeak toy that he likes and chasing that during a desensitization exercise seems to make him happy. Lots of praise and "atta boys" from me seem to work also.

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Guest LJS1993
Well put Kristine! I wish my fearful pup was food motivated, it would probably make our work go much more quickly. He's just not there yet. Outside the door to the house, he's just too "aware" if you will, to be interested in the food. We're at the point that he'll take food rewards in the back yard, but nowhere else yet. I'm focusing on the trust building and slow (VERY SLOW) desensitization exercises. There is alot of differing opinions about whether the food reinforces the fear response, but I buy into the concept of building positive associations in the dog's mind between that fearful stimuli and a positive reward. I have a small squeak toy that he likes and chasing that during a desensitization exercise seems to make him happy. Lots of praise and "atta boys" from me seem to work also.

 

 

Yes, I think your strategy will work. Freckles is really into food treats, at least here on the ranch and around the home. We will have to see how it works outside with the general public.

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Interesting discussion!

 

Buddy is completely treat-driven - to the point that he will completely stop his barking/growling fear reaction if I show him a piece of chicken. It's a shortcut to get him to allow strangers in the house, which is still a tough situation for him. (Since I live alone, I don't have a lot of folks coming and going constantly, and the regulars, Buddy already trusts.) For Buddy, food = trust. And I've bridged that trust with a "friend" word that he understands, too...

 

I don't know what you'd do with a dog who wasn't food obsessed. A woman in my class, who has a REALLY reactive BC, uses a tug toy to get his attention away from distrations, and that works great for her. How would you desensitize a dog who didn't motivate with food or toy?

 

Mary

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Guest WoobiesMom

I think it would be really hard, and it has been with Woobie. When I was a kid I retrained a gaming horse to western pleasure. One thing she had to do was walk through tires. Apparently when the horse is right over the tire, they can't see the center of it and have to trust the handler that it is not a black hole they are stepping into. This horse hated the tires. It wasn't a situation of being able to give it food or treats during a competition that I was training for. It was a very slow 6 months of trust building. I'd show her that I was standing in them, let her see me walk through them, talk, soothe, and project as much confident energy onto her as I could. Eventually she made it. I know there's a day in Woobie's future that we can walk through a playground full of kids and he'll be fine, also a day that we'll be able to do competitive obedience and he'll stand for examination without fear, that day is just a long way off. I'm patient, we'll get there together but it will be his accomplishment. I think that day is probably about 18 months away! :rolleyes:

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There was a BC and every time they scared it they'd treat it. So according to her the dog would put treats/scary noises together.

 

I have seen this technique work very well in agility for dogs that are afraid of the banging noise of the teeter. My trainer bangs the teeter on purpose, with the dog a short distance away, and each time, the handler quickly, almost simultaneously treats the dog. Over time, the dog stops jumping or flinching at the sound of the teeter.

 

I wonder if I could do the same thing with fireworks? The problem is that they are so unpredictable that I'd have to buy my own and have someone set them off for me just for training sessions. :rolleyes: I'm not wild about driveway fireworks either (wonder if she senses that?).

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I've used the desensitizing/treating for Jackson. If he would look at a man for a split second he got a treat, then I just extended the time between seeing the guy and getting the treat. Then I would let him get a little closer and start back to the beginning. Now he is not afraid of men, interacts with them, and seeks out their attention. I also used to do that with thunder. I would start to play with him (inside) and whenever the thunder boomed I would throw the toy so 1) he had to leave my side 2) I couldn't physically cuddle him or reassure him 3) he realized that thunder didn't scare me enough to stop playing so he couldn't stop playing and hide. Now he is nervous with thunder, but he doesn't get panicked.

 

But really, he trusted food more than me at first. Now he is fine with a pet on the head and a command on my part. He is now absolutely fearless when he is with me and I have to make sure he doesn't take unneeded risks. I can now take him to new surroundings, to street fairs, parks, playgrounds, downtown city.

 

Woobie: You have a lot of patience and that is great! I'm sure Woobie will do great. Jackson was never food modivated either. I used to use a game of tug or just concentration exercises with him instead. I taught him "eyes" so that I could hold his attention when something super scary went by, like a bicycle or a skateboarder. That helped a lot. I would just say eyes, point to my eye, and maintain eye contact with him until we passed, then after he was a little calmer he got a treat. He seemed to get comfort in the fact that I identified the problem, assessed the danger and dismissed it by looking at him. And I had to upgrade to a lot of smelly treats like hot dogs, cheese, lunch meat, chicken etc...

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Toys can definitely work well with dogs that aren't as food motivated.

 

Dean is afraid of the banging agility teeter. Since our class is outside, I took him into he building to start. I started just playing ball with him inside and then moved out. He wasn't ready, so we went back in. By the third time, he was ready. Gradually we moved closer to the field, and as long as he was playing ball, he was fine.

 

He isn't really fearful by nature, so the process is happening pretty quickly.

 

You can also build food motivation in a dog. One way is to train on a regular basis in the morning before your dog has eaten. By training the dog when he is hungry, you are conditioning your dog to work for food. Eventually that can translate into situations where your dog isn't as hungry.

 

Another tactic is to use a variety of treats at once and make sure there is one thing in the mixture that your dog is absolutely CRAZY over. It might be leftover roast beef from dinner or string cheese. Some dogs simply don't care enough about actual "dog treats" to be motivated to work for them when out and about, but those same dogs will go nuts over something like cheese.

 

The main thing, though, is to do what works. I saw someone once whose dog was "not food motivated" really struggling in class. Nothing that she fed the dog got his interest. Finally, she got a kleenex and to reward the dog, she waved the kleenex around and the dog went wild chasing it. This was a small dog of some sort. It worked and the dog excelled in class whever the kleenex came out!

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