Parvo in Pups

[Ellie]

I remember when we went to this horrid place to pick up Ellie the breeder, who will be revealed one day, said she had had parvo as did some of the other dogs but he nursed them through using mostly fresh goats milk. My vet gave her a clean bill and all the shots but I wonder what other lasting damage could have been done besides the heart. Isn't that where parvo causes the most harm and could Ellie's lethargy be due to heart damage where it could affect O2 transfer. SHe is the most laid back BC I ahve ever had. Of course she could be gaming me a bitve but I am just wondering and could use some words of experience on this. SHe would have been 3-4 months old when she had it. I think most of her brothers and sisters died.

OnceI get the papers for Ellie from this cretin I shall expose him. I thought of a horse whip then and there but was so grief stricken over losing Katie that rescue ws boilin in my blood. Enoough of that

Please advise about the parvo. Thanks all and Ellie gives these pages 4 paws up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MaggieDog]

I believe that some people have noticed GI problems like Irritable Bowel Syndrome and others. Behaviorally there is some evidence that puppies that have a serious illness during their first 14 weeks are more prone to behavior issues, especially owner directed aggression, but that study was based on animals that were hospitalized at a vet clinic so I don't know that it would apply.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I'm told that my Woobie had a short case of parvo when he was about 14 weeks or so. It was caught quickly and 24 hours after IV antibiotics, he was markedly improved. Could it be a contributor to his shyness and skittishness? I'm not sure. I have noticed that he's not the super high energy BC mix that I thought he'd be and also that he tends towards loose stools, but they do firm up with the right food. It's just getting him to eat it, he won't eat the Science Diet straight w/o some Nutro mixed in. Not sure if his case of parvo made a difference or not, maybe...

[Pia]

I'm told that my Woobie had a short case of parvo when he was about 14 weeks or so. It was caught quickly and 24 hours after IV antibiotics, he was markedly improved. Could it be a contributor to his shyness and skittishness? I'm not sure. I have noticed that he's not the super high energy BC mix that I thought he'd be and also that he tends towards loose stools, but they do firm up with the right food. It's just getting him to eat it, he won't eat the Science Diet straight w/o some Nutro mixed in. Not sure if his case of parvo made a difference or not, maybe...

 

WOW this discussion hits home for me. I have wondered alot of the same since at 14 weeks Tucker got parvo 3 days after we picked him up at the SPCA. well the SPCA did give him his booster shot before we got him but they tell me it takes a week to be effective and because I was quick to get him to the vet, and the test showed infection but not a REAL dark blue, we tend to think the shot may have helped the severity and saved his life. At any rate it took 3 days for him to show a good sign of turn around.

I have problems with runny stools also, and if I give any food but eukenubia he gets runny immediately.

The other thing I wondered was the energy level, as a puppy when he first came home from the vet, of course he would tire easy.

As he got older he can run for hours but after the weekend, his most active time, he takes most of monday to recover, he sleeps more then other times. He is not aggressive at all he loves people and other dogs so bahavior doesnt factor in my case.

 

So being this is my first BC puppy I have nothing to go by as a comparison, so I would love to see others responses on this thread.

Pia & Tucker

[Lenajo]

I've dealt with multiple cases of parvo now and all have done well. In particular Di was 4 months and fully vaccinated when she contracted it and Coal was 5 months. Both had the severest form of the disease - violent bloody stools and vomiting, incredible weakness. Coal required a blood transfusion at the worst of it - he wasn't able to come of IVs for over a week.

 

Both dogs have cast iron stomachs now - Coal is a working farm dog and learning trialing, Di is a well regarded Open dog and a farm dog. Both were raised, and continue to eat a raw diet with relish. They glow with health and you couldn't ask for lovelier temperaments.

 

Parvo that affects the heart is usually in very small pups (less than 6 weeks) and is usually fatal. Older pups have the GI version and with proper care should have no lasting effects.

 

I don't understand why Ellie's pup was given vaccines after Parvo? Am I understanding this correctly.

 

Di and Coal's story is not uncommen - its repeated over and over again with different dogs, different issues, on the natural diet and rearing lists.

[Ellie]

I've dealt with multiple cases of parvo now and all have done well. In particular Di was 4 months and fully vaccinated when she contracted it and Coal was 5 months. Both had the severest form of the disease - violent bloody stools and vomiting, incredible weakness. Coal required a blood transfusion at the worst of it - he wasn't able to come of IVs for over a week.

 

Both dogs have cast iron stomachs now - Coal is a working farm dog and learning trialing, Di is a well regarded Open dog and a farm dog. Both were raised, and continue to eat a raw diet with relish. They glow with health and you couldn't ask for lovelier temperaments.

 

Parvo that affects the heart is usually in very small pups (less than 6 weeks) and is usually fatal. Older pups have the GI version and with proper care should have no lasting effects.

 

I don't understand why Ellie's pup was given vaccines after Parvo? Am I understanding this correctly.

 

Di and Coal's story is not uncommen - its repeated over and over again with different dogs, different issues, on the natural diet and rearing lists.

 

 

I may be wrong on that last about the parvo vaccine as I was a bit out of it when the Katester was killed and then Ellie rescued from the disgusting camp. So don't beleive too mmuch of the timeline. I'll look to natural diet but Ellie eats well and is not becoming MUCH less fearful of me and is realizing I speak BC. That helps

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

If your puppy came down with Parvo 3 days after the vaccine, the vaccine itself probably did not protect her but rather was the cause of the outbreak in the first place.

 

My Rascal is a Parvo survivor. As Lenajo's dogs, Rascal also had the severest of forms with violent bloody stools and excessive vomiting. She was just 7 weeks old and vaccinated 2 days prior to her breakout. I knew nothing of Parvo before I got her and if I'd known what I was doing, I would have waited 10-14 days to vaccinate her after getting her from a shelter.

 

Anyhow, Rascal has zero side effects three years later. She does have a grade 2 heart murmur which no one can tell me either was or was not caused by the Parvo. I will never know.

[Ellie]

If your puppy came down with Parvo 3 days after the vaccine, the vaccine itself probably did not protect her but rather was the cause of the outbreak in the first place.

 

My Rascal is a Parvo survivor. As Lenajo's dogs, Rascal also had the severest of forms with violent bloody stools and excessive vomiting. She was just 7 weeks old and vaccinated 2 days prior to her breakout. I knew nothing of Parvo before I got her and if I'd known what I was doing, I would have waited 10-14 days to vaccinate her after getting her from a shelter.

 

Anyhow, Rascal has zero side effects three years later. She does have a grade 2 heart murmur which no one can tell me either was or was not caused by the Parvo. I will never know.

 

 

my error she had parvo and survived. She is almost 1 year now and I think she had the parvo when she was a pup. We got her terrified and abused at 10 months

[AK dog doc]

If your pup broke with parvo three days after the vaccine, the vaccine was PROBABLY NOT the cause of the outbreak. Almost certainly not, actually. Even if it was a modified live virus vaccine and not a killed virus vaccine, the attentuated viruses are extremely unlikey to revert to virulence.

 

Incubation on the parvo virus is typically seven to ten days, which would suggest that the pup was exposed several days PRIOR to the vaccine being given. (NOTE: during the incubation period, the animal will seem perfectly healthy, even though the infection is starting to replicate invisibly.) By the time the vaccine was given, the infection was already rolling and the vaccine was too late to stop it. Vaccines work by educating the immune system to prevent infection and illness. If the illness has already started the education of the immune system is too late to prevent the illness. Rarely, if the system is very stressed by other system problems, you might speed up the incubation slightly, but in such a case the illness is STILL not from the vaccine - it's from natural exposure. As noted, several other dogs in Ellie's environment ALSO had parvo, which means that the virus was present her surroundings and available to infect her. As the parvo virus is extremely hardy in the environment and HIGHLY contagious, that's about a zillion times more likely to be the source of the infection that the vaccine would be.

 

It's kind of like saying, "This door has no lock on it so I'd better install one." Let's say installing a lock is a complex process that takes a week, and breaking into a house ALSO takes a week. Let's also say that four days before you start yout lock installation, a burgler starts the break-in process. If you're on day three of lock installation, and the burglar breaks in and steals everything you own, was that caused by having started lock installation? Of course not. You just didn't have time to complete the installation before the burglar completed the break-in process.

 

Even if you were inclined to argue that drilling a hole in the door jamb for the dead bolt made the break-in easier, that still didn't cause the break-in. The break-in was caused by the burgler, NOT THE LOCK - or the installation thereof. The fact of the matter is that a door without a lock is easily opened, and having drilled a hole in the door jamb won't change that. The only thing that WILL change that is having time to install the lock all the way so you can lock the burgler out.

 

That said, the longterm effects (if any) of having survived parvo at her age are most likely to relate to her GI tract. The vast majority of parvo survivors show no longterm ill effects. I hope Ellie falls into that category.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

if the system is very stressed by other system problems, you might speed up the incubation slightly, but in such a case the illness is STILL not from the vaccine - it's from natural exposure.

 

This was the situation I was referring to which is why I stated that I would wait 10-14 days after getting a dog to give it vaccines (if at all) in the future. The immune system is more likely to be able to fight off the virus (which it's probably been exposed to in a shelter) due to the natural exposure if the immune system is not further weakened by giving the dog vaccines immediately. The immune system will almost certainly be lowered to a level at which parvo is able to just take over completely if the dog is vaccinated while unknowingly harvesting the illness. If the dog is not vaccinated so soon, it's much more likely the virus will not be as bad or the dog will be able to fight it off completely without showing symptoms because the immune system will not be dampened further by the vaccines. This is why, instead of immediately vaccinating dogs that I get, I boost their immune system for the first few weeks before ever even considering vaccines. Then, if I decide to vaccinate the dog at all, I will consider doing that at that time. I was not clear with my first statement.

 

 

As noted, several other dogs in Ellie's environment ALSO had parvo, which means that the virus was present her surroundings and available to infect her.

 

My initial comments were actually directed at Pia, who stated that her pup came down with parvo 3 days after they got her (at which point the SPCA vaccinated her).

[SilverWolf73]

I got my dog Heidi (a schnauzer mix) from the pound at 12 weeks of age or so. I took her for vaccinations that day. She contracted severe Parvo (bloody diarrhea, vomiting, etc) and was hospitalized for a week. Even after that she was still vomiting and unable to hold down much of anything...I wonder why they sent her home, actually. I honestly don't know how she survived on so little food and water...she was skin and bones and began to have that glazed "death" look in her eyes. SLOWLY she began a recovery, and now, six years later, she is the best dog ever!! No lasting effects at all so far...she is VERY smart and sweet and loves to play just like she did as a pup....hopefully she will live a LONG time with no more ill effects. One lasting effect that is not health related is that she is kind of dog aggressive to strange dogs because I missed a window of socialization opportunity...she was too sick to take anywhere until she was about 5 months old! Another is that we really bonded during that time and she is my heart dog...I love that raggety little rascal! You can see her on Dixie's dogster page...there is a link to her page as a member of Dixie's family.

[Lenajo]

sorry AK Doc, but my vets agree 100% RuffMutt.

 

Regardless of agreement on that matter, it is definately on the vaccine data sheet from the manufacturer that it is only to be given to healthy animals. A freshly disease exposed, stressed puppy 3 days from the shelter is not healthy.

 

Also worth noting is that vaccinating a stressed, virally challanged dog is a major risk factor for triggering autoimmune hemolytic anemia (AIHA). This per researcher and hemotologist W Jean Dodds DVM

[AK dog doc]

sorry AK Doc, but my vets agree 100% RuffMutt.

 

Regardless of agreement on that matter, it is definately on the vaccine data sheet from the manufacturer that it is only to be given to healthy animals. A freshly disease exposed, stressed puppy 3 days from the shelter is not healthy.

 

Agree 100% with what?

 

And of course no one should ever vaccinate an unwell puppy - but one that is in the incubation stage generally is NOT unwell in any apparant or detectable way, because the symptoms have not broken yet. As I was not in the room when the puppy was vaccinated, I can't say whether or not it was showing symptoms, but in parvo cases, the vast majority become ill VERY abruptly - as in they feel fine, eat, play, and act in every way normal, and then an hour or two later are vomiting and lethargic and clearly unwell. But had you seen the puppy a few hours prior to onset, there would be no detectable way to determine it had parvo - even if you had run the parvo test it would have been negative, because that would have preceeded viral shed in the gut.

 

RuffMutt, are you saying that you think that the VACCINE caused the parvo, or are you saying that you think that having a vaccine AFTER the dog already HAS parvo (but is in the incubation stage and apparantly well) hastened the signs of onset? The first would be incorrect, the second is certainly possible - but it does NOT mean the vaccine caused the parvo. At most it would only REVEAL the parvoviral infection slightly sooner than would have otherwise occurred. That might seem like a subtle distinction but I assure you it is not. The two things are very distinct and separate situations and should not be confused with one another. I'm not nitpicking here; this is medicine we're talking about, and it's necessary to be accurate. (Although I agree it's not always easy to make clear what one means via written communication on a BB)!

 

At any rate, the post I quoted made it sound as if you were saying that the vaccine CAUSED the parvo. Your subsequent one made it sound as if you felt the vaccine might have REVEALED an already-ongoing case of parvo, to which the puppy had already been exposed and which it was at that point incubating. I'd agree that the latter is possible, but that's not how the prior post actually reads. You may have MEANT the latter, but for the sake of others reading the thread, I needed to clear up the potential misconception and make clear a distinction as to where the parvo that caused the illness actually CAME from.

 

FWIW, a few years ago I had a case in which two out of a litter of five Alaskan husky pups were shipped out of state to a purhcaser (in MI, IIRC). The two who were shipped had a health certificate and were given first vaccines - by me. They appeared perfectly healthy at the time of exam, yipping and playing and climbing up me and generally acting like puppies. Five days later the owners were back with the pups who had remained home (and had not yet been vaccinated). All three of them had parvo - one vomiting, one with vomiting and diarrhea, one just moping but clearly not feeling well. I advised them to contact the purchasers of the other pups and let them know that they were exposed to parvo prior to the vaccine and they should be observing the puppies closely for signs of illness. As it turns out, by the time the three that stayed in AK went home from the hospital (all well, thank goodness), the two who had been shipped were still perfectly healthy and had shown NO sign of illness at any time. The pups who were shipped were CERTAINLY more stressed than those who stayed home, and unless they somehow magically (and very coincidentally), out of the entire litter, did NOT encounter the parvovirus in the home environment, they should have been the ones to break with it first. Yet they never got it at all. The immune system is a strange and wonderful creature, and all I can think is that for whatever reason (perhaps by sidestepping maternal antibodies?) the vaccine stimulated sufficient immunity to prevent illness from occurring in those two puppies. I would not have thought that possible, but there you go. Go figure. Now I can at least say that I DO know it's *possible* - perhaps not likely, but possible - that vaccine might prevent illness in a pup with a known exposure.

 

[NOTE: there is a difference between preventing INFECTION and preventing ILLNESS. A pup in the incubation stage is INFECTED, but not yet ILL. The goal is really to prevent ILLNESS, although we can sometimes prevent infection as well. Just in case you weren't confused enough already.]

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

In my second post I wrote that I was not clear with my first statement (about the vaccine actually giving the dog Parvo vs. the vaccine very possibly causing the symptoms to be worse when previously infected).

 

At any rate, I give up on trying to make clear points on the internet. It's darn near impossible to please everyone when written words can be read 354362354325213 different ways.

[Pia]

sorry AK Doc, but my vets agree 100% RuffMutt.

 

Regardless of agreement on that matter, it is definately on the vaccine data sheet from the manufacturer that it is only to be given to healthy animals. A freshly disease exposed, stressed puppy 3 days from the shelter is not healthy.

 

Also worth noting is that vaccinating a stressed, virally challanged dog is a major risk factor for triggering autoimmune hemolytic anemia (AIHA). This per researcher and hemotologist W Jean Dodds DVM

 

Since the first comment in this debate was meant for my post, after reading all of this, I can figure as I did orginially, that Tucker was exposed to the virus once he arrived at the SPCA. Approximently 5 days after his arrival I saw him for the first time, he acted normal. that was a Sunday, on Monday the SPCA feeling that they had a good adoption lead gave him the vaccinations. Tuesday nite we picked Tucker up, he was normal, happy, full of energy but still in the exposure period which my vet told me is 7 to 10 days. Wednesday morning he ate some food, and drank. After wednesday morning he would not eat anything. Thursday I was tring to give him chicken breast, he refused to eat. I was on the phone with the vet and the spca I was upset but had no prior dealings with parvo so didnt get the hints.

friday morning exactly 10 days from surrender to spca, he was vomiting every 1/2 hour.

Did the shot excellerate the infection? don't know

personally I am more upset with the owner of the puppy then anyone, to turn over a 14 week old puppy with only 1 set of shots knowing he did not get the needed second set in time (for the 7 to 10 period) was like handing the puppy a death sentence. they sold the other 6 puppies, or so they claimed, and if you rasie puppies at all you must be aware of the danger of taking an unvaccinated dog and exposing them to the virus. This was no out of state puppy mill these people lived in the same town as the SPCA.

I would never surrender an animal without the means to fight off illness but that is just ME

Pia

[Ellie]

since I started this thread the breeder or so he calls himself said she had had a bad case of parvo and they nursed her through it though some of the other littermates died. They did it with goats milk and I have to say this place was like a POW camp and it was all I could do not to cram him into the cage; one of many littel tiger cages there. Ellei was 1o months old when we got her and according to the vet, our usual who is very good said she appeared to be ok. I DON"T KNOW ABOUT THE ORIGINAL VACCINES. I do know she is coming along quite well and is now 1 year old but acts about 12-14 weeks in the gourd. We need to get another local pup tp help teach her how to play; my knees are getting sore chasing the ball and frisbee. My original question was well answered and it is TERRIFIC that so many of yoju ahve in depth knowledge on these topics. SHe is beginning to learn come stay sit and when she can come to a whistle or call then she gets off the leash.

 

Thank you all for the information and help. Everyday she is better and some days are huge jumps. It was interstring to read the thread about the 9 month fall back terrible 2's etc. This gives hope as she was one damaged chickadee but this place is a wellspring of love. That always works. Oour other two borders made my life as y'all know

[Pia]

since I started this thread the breeder or so he calls himself said she had had a bad case of parvo and they nursed her through it though some of the other littermates died. They did it with goats milk and I have to say this place was like a POW camp and it was all I could do not to cram him into the cage; one of many littel tiger cages there. Ellei was 1o months old when we got her and according to the vet, our usual who is very good said she appeared to be ok. I DON"T KNOW ABOUT THE ORIGINAL VACCINES. I do know she is coming along quite well and is now 1 year old but acts about 12-14 weeks in the gourd. We need to get another local pup tp help teach her how to play; my knees are getting sore chasing the ball and frisbee. My original question was well answered and it is TERRIFIC that so many of yoju ahve in depth knowledge on these topics. SHe is beginning to learn come stay sit and when she can come to a whistle or call then she gets off the leash.

 

Thank you all for the information and help. Everyday she is better and some days are huge jumps. It was interstring to read the thread about the 9 month fall back terrible 2's etc. This gives hope as she was one damaged chickadee but this place is a wellspring of love. That always works. Oour other two borders made my life as y'all know

 

YUP terrible 2's explains it very well, closest thing to a kid i ever had

Paws up to u for the fine job you have done with her!!

[BayouBC]

I had a litter of 4 six week old BC mix pups that came down with parvo around Thanksgiving last year. The two that seemed to have the worst cases died. One of the surviving pups just had the bloody diarrhea, and the other never really showed symptoms at all...both continued to eat and drink on their own the entire time. The litter hadn't been vaccinated at all so far as is known. They were just dropped off at the shelter.

 

The two surivors, now about 7-8 months old, have seemed to grow at normal rates, bounced back very well, and haven't shown to be affected in any way with regards to their health. They're both very outgoing with people and love everyone. So far as I know, at last report, they hadn't shown any problems with other dogs either. The latter was my biggest concern since, after adoption, they still had to be kept away from other dogs and parks etc until they had stopped shedding the virus.

 

I have another parvo pup, 4.5 months, right now, and he's on the up-swing at 6 days after the first hint of trouble. But this was one of those cases where I was telling my vet, "I know he's not symptomatic in the ways you expect, but I'm telling you...it's parvo". So he was started on treatment before anyone, outside of me, even really believed that's what we were dealing with. He was vaccinated at 8 weeks by the breeder, and then never got a 2nd or 3rd even though they had decided to keep him. By the time he got to me, the 2nd vaccine was either too late to beat out his being exposed or just wasn't enough to prevent the disease breaking. BUT his having that 2nd vaccine is probably a major factor in how fast he's swung back, that and early early treatment.

 

Considering how much parvo we have here, it just disgusts me how many people just blow off the vaccines. My foster pup was case #5 that we've seen at the clinic in the past two weeks.

[Guest TheRuffMuttGang]

I am more upset with the owner of the puppy then anyone, to turn over a 14 week old puppy with only 1 set of shots knowing he did not get the needed second set in time (for the 7 to 10 period) was like handing the puppy a death sentence.

 

Four months ago I pulled three FIVE WEEK OLD puppies from the pound. Tell me who dumps five week old (or perhaps younger per my vet) puppies at a pound?!?! Clearly purebred, but of course they got deathly ill with some sort of upper respiratory crap. Vet said distemper but I am not sure. One of the pups died, one got very, very sick but survived and the 3rd pup coughed about three times and never got any worse. Strange how those immune systems work. The surviving pups were not vaccinated for the first time until they were three months old because their immune systems just couldn't handle it until then.

 

With any of these diseases treatment is sort of a crapshoot. There's no cure for Parvo or Distemper so treatment is largely supportive and even the best supported dogs that seem to be doing well can crash and die on you. I have a friend that lost a puppy to Parvo a few months ago and thought it would be okay to bring a new puppy in about 5-6 months later. I suggested she not do it but she did it anyway. I did convince her to give the puppy a product called Parvaid and consider not vaccinating him for at least 10 days after she brought him home (to see if he would break with the Virus). She did both. Two months later the puppy had had two sets of shots and broke with Parvo. Fortunately, I think the Parvaid actually did some good. The puppy vomited once and didn't seem like himself so his owner took him to the E-vet, knowing it could be Parvo. He tested positive. He stayed at the E-vet overnight and then the regular vet for 3 more days but never got any worse so was sent home.

 

Courtney, I'm sorry you're dealing with Parvo again.

[Beth G]

Some idiot that drives my husband to dialysis, has a gorgeous rott. He has let her get pregnant twice now, even though I offered to hook him up with some free spay coupons for her and his cat(who has been pregnant now three times!!!) to take both of them to the vet for him as he works so much.

 

Anyhooo my gripe is that he has gotten rid of both puppy litters at 5 wks old to whomever he can find on a city street corner to take them!! Out here the law is the pups should stay with their mom until 10 wks.

 

I tried to explain this to him about how important it is as the mom teaches her babies so much(bite inhibition, socialization skills- even some housebreaking!!) but he wouldn't listen.

 

Oh sure he said that he would keep them with her til at least 8 wks, but last weekend got rid of them anyhow....

 

Makes me so mad.