Stock sense

[Pippin's person]

Answering honestly, do you think a person (not me, of course, a friend of mine) who comes to stock as an adult (and who is not an "animal whisperer" by nature) can actually acquire stock sense within the confines of a normal adult lifetime? I know you can't get it out of a book (darn!), but I've been wondering if you need to get it in your mama's milk to really *get* it

 

I'm not asking because I'm in a hurry to have it--I'm actually enjoying my turtle like pace through this new world--and am perfectly willing (though I'll be disappointed) to accept that I'll never be a native speaker of "sheep" if that's the case.

 

It's more that I've noticed that very good stockdog handlers tend to have been around livestock as children/youngsters. Almost always without dogs, to which many seem to come later in life.

 

I was scribing at a trial recently and the judge consistently commented on the people who had no stocksense in his opinion (there were all open handlers). I could see what he meant, but I wasn't sure whether it was fixable.

 

So, maybe what I'm really asking for is the stories of folks who came to stockwork later in life (let's say after age 30) and truly have stock sense. If such folks do indeed exist.

 

Thanks as always

Robin

[juliepoudrier]

Ack! Thirty is "later in life"? Dang, I must be a positive fossil! Short answer to your question: yes it's possible to learn stock sense. If you are experienced with stock, you'll have a leg up on folks who are not, but *anyone* can learn to read stock and understand stock. The fact is that even those of us raised around stock might not have been raised around the type of stock we have now, so while generalities may apply, specifics may not.

 

At any rate, the best way to gain stock sense is to work with stock as much as you can, especially without your dog so you can see how the stock react to you (without any distractions). Also spend time observing your stock in their natural setting--pasture (you'll note patterns to their behavior that will help you to handle them) as well as how they react in more confined settings (pens, barns, chutes). Watch how they react to, say, a cat crossing the pasture. Notice what they notice and how quickly they notice it, and what causes them to notice. Note the things that upset them or make them uneasy. Watch how they negotiate obstacles or new "things" appearing in their field. Learning stockmanship really just means doing and observing (and learning from your mistakes). Anyone can do it, even those ancient folks over 30! LOL!

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Well, I, too, am a fossil in that sense. I picked 30 arbitrarily as a point past childhood/young adulthood. A sort of stock sense "critical period" rather than a point past the prime of life.

 

I like your description of essentially doing a stock ethnography--that seems like a great way to learn a lot about them and to start to gain some intuitions about what they will do.

 

But, the fact that you yourself were raised around stock illustrates the question I was asking.

 

How do you know that anyone can do it?

 

ETA: Looking more carefully at your post, Julie, it's exactly the generalities of being around stock as a young person that I'm wondering about.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Raising hand here. I won't say I have no stock sense, because put me in a pen with sheep and I have no problems by myself, considering I too am a city girl wannabe. Put a dog in there with me, any of mine in particular, and I freakin' lose my mind. I can't explain it.

 

I'm the one that years ago after my run, someone behind me complimented me on having a nice dog and a pretty level head (that was kind of surprising), but that I'd really benefit if I got some sheep to practice on. I wasn't sure whether it was better to shut up or let him know I'd had sheep about five years, at that point.

 

There's a saying, "It's better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

[Pipedream Farm]

Is it possible? yes

 

But like dogs, people all have different learning curves based upon their genetics (some are born animal whisperers) and their working experiences. Then there is the issue that Becca pointed out, being able to translate your stock knowledge into commands for a dog. Adding a dog means your processing speed needs to match (or better still exceed) the speed of the dog.

 

Mark (only 12 years on the stock sense learning curve and a looooong ways to go)

[Pearse]

I wouldn't say I had much stock sense (or any other kind of sense for that matter) having never been within arms length of a sheep until I got my first Border Collie four years ago but a couple of things have helped me out.

 

Watch people who have great stock sense. Lots of the better handlers are stockmen and women who grew up working livestock. When you go to trials, watch them carefully especially at the pen and in the shedding ring. See how they move to affect the stock.

 

Work the pens at trials. It's a dirty job and no one wants to do it, so you pretty much can always offer to help and trial organizers will say yes. You don't need a dog (and unless you have one used to working pens, you're better to leave it behind) but you will need to move sheep and the more you can do it without laying hands on them, the cleaner you will be, and the quieter the sheep will be when they are put on the field. You learn a lot trying to move a reluctant ewe into the chute with just body pressure.

 

Move sheep without a dog. I once asked a very good handler how to improve my shedding. He told me to take 10 or so sheep out into the field, lay my dog down on the far side of the sheep, just to hold one side, then pick a sheep at one end and move it to the other end of the group and back without moving the dog or upsetting the other sheep. "When you have done this grasshopper, then it is time for you to shed", quoth he before rolling up his bedroll and walking barefoot into the sunset.

 

Needless to say, it's not time for me to shed yet but I give it a go anyway. You can learn anything if you want to. It just takes longer as you fossilize.

 

Pearse

[Sue R]

What terrific advice folks have given in this thread! I have to agree with everything said, and that's coming from someone raised in the wilds of suburbia, who didn't have exposure to any livestock (other than horses) until well into adulthood.

 

I think you will learn more if you do work the stock without a dog, as said. That will help you to understand flight zones, pressure, animal reactions, etc. Putting the dog into the mix, like Rebecca said, speeds up things so much that it's hard for me to see, interpret, and respond in any sort of timely manner.

 

I have a dear friend (I'm not sure she's speaking to me but she is dear to me!) who has occasionally let me do pen work with her (and without my dog) and that is a tremendous opportunity to learn.

 

Now, I'm going to take my fossilized old bones and get out of here...

[Howdyjabo]

I have known several people brought up around stock-- worked stock constantly-- and still had no stock sense.

And stock didn't like them even when they technically did everything right.

My Father-In-law and son are prime examples.

 

Then there are those that just seem to inately know how to relate right from the get go-- and stock like them(very forgiving) even when they do something wrong.

My daughter from the day she was born is a prime example.

 

And theres all the people and levels in between--- the more stock work you do the more chance of developing your natural stock sense--

If its just not there you can work stock from now until doomesday and it won't help.

[bcnewe2]

I think experience is the best teacher. When young(ger) we tend to learn quicker but that doesn't mean we can't learn. I've had sheep since '99 and I think only now am I really learning what stock sence is all about. Doesn't always work for me on the trial field. Once I was out working stock somewhere else and couldn't figure out why the sheep wouldn't come to me in the pen....DUH...I wasn't their shepherd and they knew it, I didn't know that it mattered.

I have a son who is 15 so was 7 or 8 when we got sheep. He's a natural at stock and dogs but doesn't like either so he'll never get to use what he learned so easy. He does know exactly how to push my sheep and dog buttons to pi** me off or get a rise as he likes to say but he really doesn't like either.

 

Off to try what Pearse talked about with shedding. I've recently learned how to help make a hole for the dog and can't figure out what I'm doing differently than when I couldn't make one.

Just my 2 old fossil cents worth

Hopping off like the grasshopper I am

Kristen

[Deacon Dog]

My gut reaction is it's like learning a language later in life. Can you do it and even become fluent? Probably. Will it become instinctual and intuitive like you've been speaking it since you were a kid? Probably not.

[Wendy V]

I was scribing at a trial recently and the judge consistently commented on the people who had no stocksense in his opinion (there were all open handlers).

 

Please tell me that I wasn't one of those singled out!

 

I am a city girl, still sheepless, and a slow learner. What I found to be very helpful is to study the videos of the International trials (I guess this relates to Pearce's comment). I'll usually will focus on one particualr aspect of trialing that is giving me grief and try to figure out what the GOOD competitors are doing correctly. This makes a great winter project. You can order them on the internet from Rural Route videos.

 

Also, my stock handling improved when I was able to get on a field to work my dog by myself, wothout interferance from others. Sudenly I became 100% responsible for the livestock and had to come up with a training plan for myself and the dog. I made a gadzillion mistakes but I had the mental space to work them out for myself.

 

HTH,

[Zoe]

Sorry to butt in, but this thread is one of the best things I've read in ages. Thanks.

[kelpiegirl]

At a recent clinic we went over where the dog should be, so that the stock could move ahead, and not have to stop and fight, or just plain stop. Doesn't seem like a big deal right? Well, we all had to work the sheep - one person was the handler, and one was the dog. I was the dog. I was sent to move the sheep off the fence toward the middle of the paddock. I KNEW that if I came in straight, looking at them that they would move forward, instead of off the fence. So, I cheated a bit, and turned completely away, and backed up It worked, then I turned, and got them moving toward the middle of the paddock. This exercise highlighted for us just how much of an effect the position of the dog/dog's eye has on the sheep- especially sheep that don't know the dog. THis has come full circle into seeing how when my dog over flanks and gets pushy, that a sheep will take offense, and stop- as if to say- what are you DOING? I am MOVING ahead, what do you want NOW? And then, the ewe stops, and stomps. It makes me pay more attention to the stock, and NOT the dog. Something that I have had drilled in my head by more than one clinician, but apparently, I took a more academic stance on it. I also emlpoyed what I am finally "getting" when working goose control. The dog had been swimming after a wounded duck. I didn't want the duck to be "got". Dog came across to the middle of the pond, and Duck swimming for it's life- albeit more flailing. I wanted that duck to get away, and knew that since the dog was heading the duck to me, it would slow up, and perhaps get "gotten". I ended up stepping off to the right, and the duck hooked a 180 degree from me, and swam away from me, and sped up. I got myself out of the bubble of that duck, and it was able to find a place to get away. Same thing happened with a rabbit recently- but I won't bore you with details. Anyway, sheep, especially have pretty observant vision, and the effects our dogs have on them are readily noted when you watch their ears, and their heads. Duh. It only took me eons to get that....

[Bill Fosher]

I came to stock at the tender age of 28 or 29 -- when I was what I've referred to in another thread as a young buck. I spent my first several years doing everything with brute force -- whether it was setting up electronet, moving sheep, or stacking hay. Now, as I approach the second decade of this nonsense, my joints are forcing me to stop and think about better ways to do things.

 

I remember reading a set of sheep handling principles in a Premier catalog once which really helped the penny drop for me. The first point was something like, "Sheep have four legs and can move on their own." Ding-ding-ding!

 

So, have I developed stock sense? Some, at least, out of sheer necessity. But I learn a little every day and every time I work sheep. That's what keeps me going -- the chance that I'll learn something new. Some problems are more intractable than others, but as I've aged I've stopped apply brute muscular force in favor of mental force wherever possible. Unfortunately for me my body, even as it teeters on the brink of the slippery slope toward decrepitude,is still stronger than my mind, and seems to be capable of blocking out pain signals -- as well as those advising a little common sense -- in times of stress.

[Guest pax]

My gut reaction is it's like learning a language later in life. Can you do it and even become fluent? Probably. Will it become instinctual and intuitive like you've been speaking it since you were a kid? Probably not.

 

 

This has been my experience in trying to teach non-horsey adults about horses, exactly.

 

The other part is, there is a certain amount of physical fear which makes beginners stiff. Unless you are lucky enough to be teaching someone who is already an athlete, getting over the body tension is the biggest obstacle. And I'm not talking about just the riding, I'm talking about how they deal physically with the animals on the ground, as well. It sets the tone.

[juliepoudrier]

The other part is, there is a certain amount of physical fear which makes beginners stiff. Unless you are lucky enough to be teaching someone who is already an athlete, getting over the body tension is the biggest obstacle. And I'm not talking about just the riding, I'm talking about how they deal physically with the animals on the ground, as well. It sets the tone.

I agree completely on the fear and stiffness thing. Animals read us way better than we read them (that's why your dog also feels tension when you're nervous), and the more relaxed and confident you can be around livestock, the more relaxed and confident they will be in you (the opposite is also true). This is why it's helpful to just spend time with stock getting to know them and their habits. Not only are you learning *about* them, but you are also learning to relax and be comfortable *around* them. You needn't be an athlete to be successful (I'm guessing you meant that the athletic types might be more successful and releasing tension than the nonathletes), but relaxing/releasing tension (and that doesn't mean letting your guard down, say, in the case of working with rams, bulls, or stallions) can go a long way toward helping you to be more effective in your stock handling. And as Bill notes, while you can often manhandle animals the size of sheep, handling them smart (by working with their instincts and habits), with the least effort for you and struggle for them, is always the best option.

 

On another note, someone mentioned working in the pens at a trial without a dog. This is a great exercise in learning to move stock effieciently and effectively. Both Laura and Rachel got some good lessons in stock handling from Louanne Coulter and Henry Kuykendall (long-time sheep people) at Tony's trial last December. They were working the pens and were soon able to move the sheep where they wanted them to go very quietly and calmly and without touching them. We did make fun of Rachel's crablike technique but she was effective! I guess the lesson there is that if you have access to people with good stock sense and they are willing to impart their knowledge to you, soak it up like a sponge whenever you get a chance!

 

J.

[Carson Crazies]

Both Laura and Rachel got some good lessons in stock handling from Louanne Coulter and Henry Kuykendall (long-time sheep people) at Tony's trial last December. They were working the pens and were soon able to move the sheep where they wanted them to go very quietly and calmly and without touching them. We did make fun of Rachel's crablike technique but she was effective! I guess the lesson there is that if you have access to people with good stock sense and they are willing to impart their knowledge to you, soak it up like a sponge whenever you get a chance!

 

Yes, yes we did! I went up there, hopped into the pens, and promptly grabbed up a ewe and shoved her into the next pen. I was kindly, gently, and quickly educated on how to move them without having to (wo)manhandle them. It was a fantastic learning experience, and I had the time of my life. I think I could have spent months just absorbing anything they could pass on to us. I remember standing up there that day with the sun at my back, the wind in my hair, a pen full of sheep and a good friend the next pen over thinking, "This must be the best day of my life!". I surely do hope that stock sense can be learned some, or else I'm in serious trouble since I'm turning a big old 32 in a month.

 

I tried my hand (just last weekend) at penning about 25 sheep by myself. While I wasn't completely successful, it was a neat learning experience. When I have the opportunity to I go out and spend some time moving sheep around by myself, and just watching and observing them. Even having had some horse experience, I'm finding this to be a bit of a steep learning curve. It's great though - those aha! moments are worth it.

[Carson Crazies]

I remember standing up there that day with the sun at my back, the wind in my hair, a pen full of sheep and a good friend the next pen over thinking, "This must be the best day of my life!".

 

Uh, maybe I should say the best day of my life next to the day I married my husband.

[Marilyn T]

I echo Wendy... please tell me that I wasn't one of the handlers the judge was refering to! I came into sheep by way of horses. It helped, but not as much as you would think. Firstly, horses don't 'flock' as easily, especially if they are raised from foals, and handled a lot. Getting sheep was a big eye opener, and as Wendy said, being responsible for the training plan and their well being sort of forces in some stock sense.

 

One thing I would suggest for urban folks is getting 5 ducks if you can sneak them into your living situation. Get ones like Calls, or Indian runners, clip their wings and practice moving them around your yard without a dog. They are more sensitive than sheep, but are stock.

 

The good thing about them is that they are small and don't take up much space. (It might be the only good thing!!!) Also if you get caught and have to git rid of them, they are good to eat!! I was told that one sex is quieter than another, but can't remember which. I guarantee you will begin to watch your stock, and begin to figure out their intentions. Once, long ago when he was still into trialing, I went to a Kent Kuykendall sheep camp. One of our days of camp involved ducks, and moving them around the course on foot, dogless. Kent himself was the only one able to pen the *&*((* 's and he sprained his ankle doing it. It was an education.

[Sue R]

The concept of "beginner stiffness" is something that is so true, whether you are riding a horse, ice-skating, or trying to work/train your dog - and, I think, the older you come to it, the harder it is to overcome. I do believe that, if you become focussed on the job at hand and what's happening, you can "lose yourself" and loosen up and begin to respond much better than if you keep of your mind involved in worrying about your own body. Does that make any sense? I just can't express what I'm feeling here. If you aren't worrying about how you look or whatever - you can responding to the stock and dog and so your timing becomes better and more instinctual.

 

Another thing I was thinking of with regard to stock sense is also having "dog sense" or being able to read and understand the dog. I think this is also a vital component of being successful. Watching someone like Jack Knox just shows me how little I understand my dog and what he is "saying" with his movements, posture, ears, face, etc. I don't always understand what Jack is doing or why, but I can see the results.

 

This is where working a dog on stock is unlike any other endeavor - in addition to the terrain and surroundings, there are three living, thinking, responding species (maybe more?) involved in the equation that make it very complex indeed, and wonderful...

[painted_ponies]

The concept of "beginner stiffness" is something that is so true, whether you are riding a horse, ice-skating, or trying to work/train your dog - and, I think, the older you come to it, the harder it is to overcome. I do believe that, if you become focussed on the job at hand and what's happening, you can "lose yourself" and loosen up and begin to respond much better than if you keep of your mind involved in worrying about your own body. Does that make any sense? I just can't express what I'm feeling here. If you aren't worrying about how you look or whatever - you can responding to the stock and dog and so your timing becomes better and more instinctual.

 

Did you ever read Sally Swift's book, "Centered Riding"? I think her chapter on "soft eyes" describes what you're talking about. THe "soft eyes" technique involves expanding one's awareness to take in everything and everyone around, not focusing hard on any one thing to the exclusion of others, staying in the moment (i.e. not worrying about what might happen next), and reacting to what's happening right then. Kind of riding on the right side of the brain. It is hard to explain, and even after reading the chapter many times I didn't get the hang of it on a horse for months.

 

Anyway, I'm learning a lot from reading this thread too. I shall be pestering to work the sheep pens in the near future - off to the USBCHA page to see when the next trial is.

[Pippin's person]

What a nice discussion. Thanks everyone for your insights.

 

Working the pens without a dog is a great idea. Moving ducks would also be great, but I think our neighbors might truly turn us in if we added a small bevvy of ducks to our brood...that might have to wait for the move to the country. I think using "soft eyes" as the metaphor for mindful focus is a good way to go about it--kind of adds some kind of calm state to the enterprise.

 

On beginner stifnesss: Twice in the last two weeks, I found myself more worried about stepping in a hole and twisting my ankle than in what was going on with sheep or dog. Result was first a dog who chased a poor sheep all over the world and wouldn't stop (that was a bad training set-up in a million ways and I learned that I should stop a session if I can't get my head screwed on right for it). The second result was a Cheviot that got the better of me and the dog--but in the brief moments when I focused, the dog settled down and the ewe settled down, and I learned something about how sheep who aren't completely dog-broke actually move and work. And, thankfully, no broken ankles.

 

RE: The judge didn't mention either Wendy or Marilyn as having no stock sense. Now, their shedding..... (just kidding and hard to resist)

[bexie]

Did you ever read Sally Swift's book, "Centered Riding"? I think her chapter on "soft eyes" describes what you're talking about. THe "soft eyes" technique involves expanding one's awareness to take in everything and everyone around, not focusing hard on any one thing to the exclusion of others, staying in the moment (i.e. not worrying about what might happen next), and reacting to what's happening right then. Kind of riding on the right side of the brain. It is hard to explain, and even after reading the chapter many times I didn't get the hang of it on a horse for months.

 

Anyway, I'm learning a lot from reading this thread too. I shall be pestering to work the sheep pens in the near future - off to the USBCHA page to see when the next trial is.

 

Not that I have much in the way of relevant experience yet, but how much of this might relate to fear of the consequences of a mistake? Young people don't generally think that far. They probably don't worry that they'll mess up and "hurt" their dog or the stock or themselves. They're kids and they're expected to have trouble learning things and need practice and make mistakes. But we're adults and we want to be perfect. I know from the riding perspective that I had an "instructor" for a long time that kept telling me my balance sucked... that I sat horribly on a horse and couldn't hold the reins steady. Result: I freaked out so much that I'd hurt the horse's mouth with the bit or fall off that I tensed up like mad and DID sit badly. Solution: Go try a new horse far away from said "instructor". Really love the horse and try riding bareback to see how it moves. Discover that I can sit absolutely fine on the horse when no one is pestering me. Discover that I can ride my BF's horse and manage the reins just fine even though she is wearing a good strong western curb bit. Now I have no qualms about going out and taking BF's horse on a trail ride alone because I am finally confident that I can manage, so I can.

 

So basically, if we quit worrying that we're going to break something and can relax and just try it, we have a much better chance of getting it "right".

 

Same with Molly. When I start thinking "I have no idea what I'm doing" and don't expect to succeed, I can't do anything right. But when no one is looking and I don't feel like I have to prove anything, I can get her to walk properly on the leash and she's so happy doing it...

 

Thanks for the interesting thread. I need to learn how cattle work if I want to get Molly working them. Time to start going up to help the neighbor get his cows in even before the dog is ready!

[PSmitty]

<snip> On beginner stifnesss: Twice in the last two weeks, I found myself more worried about stepping in a hole and twisting my ankle than in what was going on with sheep or dog. Result was first a dog who chased a poor sheep all over the world and wouldn't stop <snip>

 

Oh, I feel your pain. That was me Saturday! Not only was it my first time and I couldn't have been more clueless, but the pen was overgrown, had big sticks and whatnot all over. I was trying to watch sheep, dog and my feet, to avoid tripping over something. Or twisting an ankle. The results: a dive bombing dog. Geez!

 

Anyway, just wanted to echo the others who've said what a great thread this is. Thanks, everyone!

[gail]

I think one of the things that makes it difficult for people who are new to sheep and are training their first dog is that it is very difficult to focus on both at once. You really can't gain much stock sense if you are focused only on your dog & if you have an untrained dog & have never trained a dog before, you have to focus on your dog.

 

I think this is one of the main reasons why many people recommend that someone new to sheep start with a trained dog - it allows you to focus on the sheep. This is also why it is so beneficial to work sheep by yourself - because you don't have to focus on your dog. I think that teaching a good stop is very important for your first dog. It may "mechanize" your dog a bit, but it allows you to stop, take a deep breath, and focus on the sheep. When I am working well with a dog, I am not even looking at the dog, I am focused on the sheep & just checking in on the dog or keeping them in my side view. Based on what the sheep are doing and how they are reacting, I pretty much know what the dog is doing.

 

I know that learning about sheep behavior can be done at any age - it just varies alot for each individual person.

 

gail