Very heavy subject- the meaning of it all

[kelpiegirl]

This is a question to those of you out there who work your dogs on sheep, not for a living, but for a hobby. What is the meaning of this? When we work the dogs on sheep- they are on point with it, and doing what we ask- but for what? To move sheep around a course, and do it with style so we can get score well? Is this watering down of what the dog was bred for? Is is something we should be doing? I find myself grappling with this. The well bred dogs are bred to work- not move three sheep down a line as straight as can be, in some made up "course". When we work the dogs with just this goal in mind, do we lose the real meaning of the work? Did we ever know it? What about those like me who long for their own property for sheep to work the dogs on? Isn't that putting the cart before the horse? Would we do better working our dogs on other's farms, doing real work? I don't know. It all just seems so artificial to me. Maybe the post regarding only open level trial dogs that have proven themselves got me thinking about this. Why do we love this "sport" so much? Should it even BE a sport? I don't know.

 

I will say that there is nothing I enjoy more than working my girl on sheep, but I wish I could be doing more than working her for the sake of working her. Until I win the lotto however, I doubt it will be much more than that.

 

Julie

[Carson Crazies]

Well, since I've just recently acquired my own sheep, things have become quite a bit clearer. There is a different kind of purpose to what we do now, and a different feeling of responsibility. That's not to say that I didn't care about the sheep that I worked before - because I *did* and I still *do*, there's just a different dichotomy when these living beings belong to you. At any rate, it's quite a bit different as we now have a job to do - purposeful work as opposed to just aimlessly wandering around or drilling.

 

It's different because now if I want to work my pup, I use my older dog to sort out my sheep from their pasture mates, and bring my sheep out into the pasture. When I feed I have to sort sheep, and put some out in the pasture, and some in a paddock according to who gets grain and who doesn't right now. It's the practical stuff that we've been missing out on. I get to trim my own hooves, and my dog gets to help me (well, she's learning, anyway, and thankfully we had help for our first time). June and I even brought the sheep out to graze the other day. Way cool. I've had to figure a few things out for myself, and so has my dog - that has been interesting.

 

I am the type of person who *has* to have a purpose. All of the lessons in the world, and all of the helping with chores with my friends never quite brought it home like this. And I love it. Now, certainly the reason why I began taking lessons with my dog was because I was interested in learning how to work stock. Then it sort of morphed into wanting to learn this so I could have my own stock. I'm sure that the responsibility will increase exponentially with my next big change - which will be to keep my sheep at my own place & increase the numbers. It's been a great ride so far though.

 

It's been fascinating to watch my dog grow too. She's pretty darned excited to have a purpose. It took her a few days to figure out what I was asking her to do in some situations, but she's *getting it* and she's better for it. So I don't know if any of this gives you any answers to your questions, but I understand your dilemma.

 

Edit to add - I'm sure that my tiny experience is just the tip of the iceberg, but I'm still all full of wonder at this point, so please forgive my babbling. That's not to say that there's an insignificance to the lesson experience, this is just... different.

[Guest pax]

Yesterday, I sat on the top of Mark and Renee's hill, watching Renee work Bette. Starr was sitting next to me, touching, which is unusual for her and me. We had just had a very fun penning session, she and I. The sky was cobalt, the breeze was perfect, the sun was shining just enough to warm me. There was a bird singing with such regularity that at first I thought it was Renee's whistle, just chiming away. The mountains and valleys all around were the most amazing golden green. It was a moment of nothing but pure joy, followed by a rush of gratefulness for all the forces that knitted themselves together to get me there.

 

That's the meaning of it all. Those moments. Finding the joy in those moments is enough.

 

 

 

 

We don't need to justify our usefulness every moment of our lives.

[PSmitty]

I just recently read here, posted by someone wiser than me, that working stock fulfills an innate need in the border collie. So, while "real work" might be more important, I don't think it does a disservice to the dog to let it work for other reasons, including training for trials. At least the dog is getting to do what it was born to do.

 

That's just my .02, and I have no experience at all, so take it for what it's worth.

 

ETA-great post, Celia! We should all be so lucky to have a moment like that.

[Moss]

Interesting topic.

 

I don't fall into either category really -I am rather in limbo between them both. I am training my dogs for real work and use them efficiently on the estate in Scotland where my boyfriend lives and works when I visit at weekends and holidays. I am planning on moving up in the long-term and then will feel I am really working my dogs, rather than being a "hobby herder". Currently however I am also training them on stock for my pleasure and theirs, and to hopefully have a go at nursery and eventually open trialling.

 

Hobby herding is a great way of bonding with your dog, learning all about what this breed was bred for and excels in, and hopefully having some fun along the way.

 

Trialling in the UK is a great social gathering, and very important part of country life.

 

I believe trials are important in order to view the finest dogs in competition and to learn from their handers. I am not sure whether this is mainly in the UK or also abroad, but sheepdog trials do not only attract hobby herders or trialling enthusiasts, but many ordinary shepherds and farmers go along to watch the dogs work and seek out potential stud dogs or progeny.

 

The intention is still to secure the better management of stock by improving the border collie as a working dog and I think trials are the arena to show off these dogs.

 

I do know what you are getting at regarding breeding dogs for the trials field, rather than for proper work and I think this may be the case in part (unfortunately) but I still feel that the best dogs can both work a full day on the farm and put up a good show on the trial field.

[Howdyjabo]

What is the meaning of this? When we work the dogs on sheep- they are on point with it, and doing what we ask- but for what? To move sheep around a course, and do it with style so we can get score well? Is this watering down of what the dog was bred for? Is is something we should be doing?

 

I'm jumping in here(and I'll probably regret it) because I am hard core and don't think that trialing(as it is now) is enough to preserve the integrity of the breed. BUT I think people are getting the WRONG message.

 

Trialing is not bad- working hard at it is good. Just accept it for what it is AND what it is not.

The only harm is when strictly trialing dogs are bred without any real life background in stockwork-over and over and over. The old adage "don't use it/ loose it" fits here.

 

If you are not breeding, trialing is great(if you and the dog are doing it competently)- there are NO downsides to consider-- enjoy it- do great at it- value your(and the dogs) accomplishments.

 

If you are breeding-- cover the bases and either get your dog out into real life high pressure farm/ranch work OR make sure that the prodginy is being placed where they can do the prooving for the strictly trial dogs.

 

Most trialers won't even bother to cultivate a real life market for their pups- its just so much easlier to sell to the trialing/pet crowd than educate a farmer. With good reason-----Farmers fail often for lack of understanding and more often effort.

Trialing breeders would have an incentive to work with farmers if the trialers/pet owners buying pups valued that background as much as the trialing background. Making sure that there is a well rounded genetic background preserved in the breed.

[Deacon Dog]

I like being outside, the beauty of seeing good dog work, tending livestock, the intellectual rigor of training creatures that don't think or communicate like humans and doing something that gets my mind off my day job. I like trialing for the same reasons and, for the most part, being around like-minded people I enjoy, but I wouldn't give up working dogs or raising livestock if trialing ceased to exist.

 

Has trialing watered down the dogs? I think so. My impression is this feeling is pretty widespread, and it makes me wonder why we aren't working to make trialing a better test which is too bad because it's the only semi-objective criteria we've got.

[Shoofly]

I don't think trialing per se is the problem. There are trials out there that are fair tests. I'm going to two in the next week - Borders On Paradise is using unbroke wool sheep this year, and the Bluegrass the usual challenging Bluegrass sheep. You have to look at *where* dogs do well, not just at generic "trialing". I mean, AKC has "trials" too but we know what kind of test that usually is.

 

Like so very many things with these dogs, the answer is "it depends".

[Eileen Stein]

This is a question to those of you out there who work your dogs on sheep, not for a living, but for a hobby. What is the meaning of this? When we work the dogs on sheep- they are on point with it, and doing what we ask- but for what? To move sheep around a course, and do it with style so we can get score well?

 

When I got into this, I had no livestock and no livestock background. I went to a sheepdog trial in 1985, and I was immediately drawn to it as forcefully as anything in my life. It was obviously so complex, and yet so elemental. I wanted to understand it -- really understand it. I knew it wouldn't be easy -- I thought it must be the most difficult form of dog training there is, and I still think so -- but I thought that if I tried as hard as I could I would learn a lot about dog training, a lot about my dog, a lot about doghood in general, a lot about myself, and a lot about many things that seem on the surface to be far removed from dogs and sheep. And I was right.

 

It has never come easy to me. It's harder than anything I've ever done in my life -- much harder than practicing law, for example, and I don't mean just physically. (And I don't mean just mentally either -- it's a form of knowing that's largely not intellect and rationality, but is knowing nevertheless.) Competition was never the point to me. I don't think I ever, even early on, pictured myself doing well in dog trials (good thing!). I trial kind of half-heartedly, but to me the fascination has always been in trying to work out the training, to understand it as fully as possible, to get on that level of understanding with my dog which seems to come so naturally to those who you watch and wonder at. It's in that understanding that the satisfaction lies IMO.

 

I don't think you can go very far down that road without getting into the way of life. Even if it's a "hobby" in the sense that it's not your livelihood, I think as Laura says that you have a different way of thinking when you have livestock that you're responsible for. So wanting to understand more leads to that. Your dog will not really know what it's all about, and neither will you, if all the training you do is aimed at trialing and not at the overall management of livestock. You will be too focused on the dog, and not enough focused on the stock. From the very beginning I was planning and scheming how I could have my own sheep and learn what only that can teach you, and gradually and incrementally I (it) changed my life pretty totally.

 

In another thread Root Beer asked whether people who aren't serious about herding should take their dog to sheep at all, or would it be better if they didn't. I didn't post in that thread because I didn't know how to say what I think. A lot of people on these boards have basically followed the same path I did, and some of them may not have been as serious at the start as they later became, but certainly it proved good for them and their dogs to go to sheep. OTOH, if you have no serious interest at all, and are just doing it to give your dog a chance to chase sheep, or have fun, or "do what it was bred for" (without any real desire on your part to understand what that means, or any appreciation that you CAN'T yet know what it means), then I do really think it would be better not to do it. I think this is something that will yield you nothing unless you approach it with respect.

 

Hmm -- maybe I still don't know how to say what I think. It's hard to express, hard to get across. And maybe it wasn't what you were asking in the first place.

[Wendy V]

Too heavy for me, Kelpie Girl. However, very rarely, when watching a trial, or performing in one, one can see moments of beauty; when the silent, inate communication occurs between dog, human, and beast. These moments of greatness inspire us all. Attempting to capture that moment is what keeps us trialers going.

 

And, then, there is the wonderful friends we make along the way, and beautiful places we get to see. Just standing at the post, considering the field, the sheep, your dog, and you own abilities to rise to the challenge of negotiating the course, that in itself with worth the effort and expense. It is truely life-changing.

 

Have patience, KG. Your moment hasn't yet arrived. You will get there.

[Pippin's person]

There are two, somewhat intersecting, reasons for me (I can't really say that I *do* it since I haven't yet--but will be looking for my first bit of humble pie in June--I'm expecting it to be a big bit, so I'm hoping it's heavily flavored with chocolate).

 

When I was a teenager, I left the suburbs of Dallas to live in a valley of the Bernese Alps for a year. The family I lived with had chickens and rabbits. They had a brother who was a hill farmer with sheep (he had Whippets, though--no herding dogs). There was much I learned that year and I think I can honestly say that it shaped me just as fully as anything else I've ever done. I'd never been so close to "the land" before or seen that kind of beauty--I learned to milk sheep and help make cheese from the milk. I helped with the lambing. Upon leaving (and every time I've been back), the ache of wanting that kind of life permanently was almost overwhelming--made worse by not being able to imagine a way for it to happen. Who knew Border Collies were the answer....Training my dogs to work with sheep makes me feel one step closer to a life I've lived in my head for 20 years. And I hope it is bringing me closer to being able to recreate more of it (albeit in Michigan instead of in Switzerland), but only one smallish step at a time.

 

The other reason is that for most of my life I've been driven to do what I was doing in part by my desire to already be *there* rather than *here*. Although I have that same desire with this (even though I try hard to keep it in check), this may be one of the few times that it is impossible for me to get *there* quickly--I have to move through the process and the steps as I can and as my dogs can (or maybe as I have dogs who can). Although I don't think I could express it as eloquently as Eileen did, working with the sheep with my dogs is one of the hardest things I've ever done because of the kind of mental activity it is and because it involves three very different species doing a very old dance together. I am completely awestruck by human/dog teams who make it look effortless and trialing is the only place where you can see a lot of them all in the same place.

 

Trialing is one step in what I hope will be many, but I don't really see it as an end unto itself.

 

Still, I sure do hope that Hamish and I can at least finish our first novice run....

[Pipedream Farm]

I don't think trialing per se is the problem. There are trials out there that are fair tests. I'm going to two in the next week - Borders On Paradise is using unbroke wool sheep this year, and the Bluegrass the usual challenging Bluegrass sheep. You have to look at *where* dogs do well, not just at generic "trialing". I mean, AKC has "trials" too but we know what kind of test that usually is.

 

Like so very many things with these dogs, the answer is "it depends".

 

Personally, I think this answer also applies to farm/ranch work as the selection criteria. The difficulty of the farm/ranch work can vary widely depending upon the size of the farm, the type and number of sheep, and how the operation is set-up. There is a huge difference between 50 sheep on 80 acres of fenced and cross-fenced pasture vs. 100s of sheep on western range.

 

If you review the NASS Census data you'll find that the size (number of acres) and inventory (number of sheep) on operations varies widely. So just like "trials", not all "farms" are equal. Success at small trials with heavily dogged sheep is no better a selection criteria than gathering the same 50 sheep off the same small fenced pasture once a day. It's all going to depend upon your definition of "farm" in farm work and "trial" in success at trialing.

 

2002 Sheep & Lamb Inventory

 

Mark

[Pipedream Farm]

I really love trialing my dogs, but some of my best times with my dogs did not take place on the trial field. I remember a day coming in from worming/vaccinating the sheep. Rae and I were covered in mud/manure. I sat down on the mudroom floor with her resting her head on my leg. The two of us were as filthy as could be and couldn't be happier. It was the first time I had been able to do a job like that easily myself without relying on anyone for help. That dog showed me that morning that she was my partner and it was a very real relationship. It was as if she could read my mind and do what I wanted when I wanted. She and I got it done --no fuss no muss. It's so hard to put it all into words. There is so much more to it than putting a group of sheep through a course successfully. For me, it's the journey you go through with that dog building that special partnership --whether it's on the trial field or just getting chores done at home.

Renee

[stockdogranch]

Who can top what Renee said? She's got it just right!

Anna

[Tassie]

Confessions first - I have a Barbie Collie - well, 2 in fact - and I no longer have the chance to do stockwork - combination of factors - work, gas prices, time etc. Having said that, I consider that I was extremely lucky to have had the chance to learn with my girl to do real work on my friend/trainer's sheep farm We learnt enough to become handy round the farm - my Barbie Collie became a 'handy little farm dog' in spite of me. So we were able to have some of those deeply satisfying moments that Renee described. I still recall and value times like the day we were helping the stockman to get the rams out from the ewe flocks. While he went off to deal with one mob, Kirra and I had the task of gathering a mob of about 200 ewes, with about 6 rams, yarding them if we could, and starting to sort, if we could. It wasn't as pretty or smooth as it would have been with a proper working dog, but by the time he came back, we had all our sheep in the yards, and had sorted down to the last dozen sheep, ready to run those through the race to get the rams out. Then there were the times when, to eke out the pasture, we would take a mob from the places in their 140 acres or so paddock where they preferred to be, and park them where there was longer grass, and shepherd them for a couple of hours while they ate that down.

 

There is nothing quite like that feeling, or the satisfaction of being able to use your dog to get a job done. While Kirra became a useful chores dog, it would have taken a lot to get her to be a trialling dog - if indeed she ever did. It wasn't somewhere I felt we needed to go. I do other good stuff with my dogs now, and enjoy that too - but I really treasure those experiences with stock-work. There is definitely a special extra dimension to that.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

This is why life is all about....we had a 100 yr flood in Nov. I posted this on another forum...

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Yesterday one pasture was almost under water and it was raining hard. Soon it would all be under water. We just had spent the afternoon in the canoe going up and down the field pushing logs and stumps off the fence line. I just saw how bad it was when I went to feed. Early it was 2/3 filled with water but with the afternoon rains it filled up fast.

 

The sheep were huddled on a small sliver of land, about 75 feet away and it would be covered with water in a few hours. The water was about four feet deep between the sheep and me and the mouth of the gate the water was over my knees.

 

I called "sheep, sheep" and looked at me, all pathetic. We all were wet and miserable. No one was moving

 

"Tess" and she came running. I figure if she couldn't get them then Jeff and I would have to lasso them and drag them in behind the canoe. (He would not be amused at this idea)

 

I pointed weakly to the sheep and say to Tess" Away to me"

 

She jumped into the water and swims out and comes out behind the sheep. She has become a strong swimmer since we moved out here. The sheep who normally are terrified of her do not move. These are the squirrelly lambs who now have feet of stone.

 

"Bring them" and she walks up to them.

 

They do not budge.

 

"Take hold" and she grips. They jump and do not move.

 

Hum, so I tell her "bring them" and give her a ssshhhhhh. That means bring the stock anyway you can and RIGHT now.

 

Tess works in earnest now, gripping and pushing as hard as she can. I see her on top of the backs of the sheep and they refuse to go in. Soon a couple of them jump and the rest follow and I see Tess with yards of wool in her mouth. She spits it out and plunges in after them. Half of them swim to me and the other half swim back. She bring the first half to me and then turns around and dives into the water and goes back to the island. Now the sheep on the island have more room and they al dance around her but she works like a cutting horse and moves them in. She brings them to me and then turns back. I wonder why she goes back and then see on a tiny island tucked around the corner there is the goat. The goat butts and rears at her but she gets it to jump and swim to me

 

She then gathers up the sheep and I walk to the new barn and I open the door and she pens them. Her tongue is hanging down a mile and she coughs up huge amounts of water.

 

I shut up the barn and we walk up to the house. And I, yes me, am proud that she is my partner.

[PSmitty]

Wow, Diane, that gave me chills. Thank you for sharing.

[G. Festerling]

I have been following this and enjoyed everyones posts.

This one I feel gets closest to my own believes.

 

 

I'm jumping in here(and I'll probably regret it) because I am hard core and don't think that trialing(as it is now) is enough to preserve the integrity of the breed. BUT I think people are getting the WRONG message.

 

Trialing is not bad- working hard at it is good. Just accept it for what it is AND what it is not.

The only harm is when strictly trialing dogs are bred without any real life background in stockwork-over and over and over. The old adage "don't use it/ loose it" fits here.

 

If you are not breeding, trialing is great(if you and the dog are doing it competently)- there are NO downsides to consider-- enjoy it- do great at it- value your(and the dogs) accomplishments.

 

If you are breeding-- cover the bases and either get your dog out into real life high pressure farm/ranch work OR make sure that the prodginy is being placed where they can do the prooving for the strictly trial dogs.

 

Most trialers won't even bother to cultivate a real life market for their pups- its just so much easlier to sell to the trialing/pet crowd than educate a farmer. With good reason-----Farmers fail often for lack of understanding and more often effort.

Trialing breeders would have an incentive to work with farmers if the trialers/pet owners buying pups valued that background as much as the trialing background. Making sure that there is a well rounded genetic background preserved in the breed.

 

My own have always had "alternate" jobs. Others than my companions. The agility and frisbee came later. Back when I got my first dog she was the one that helped bring in the mares and babies. Anyone that has ever dealt with broodmares and babies knows how ignorant the little ones can get at a certain age about coming along with mom. Way too busy running around and having a ball. While all the others that worked with me had trouble bringing them in from pasture to the stalls for the vet, I had none. Not once I used Gem. She would always balance perfectly to me and keep the babies with mom. Strong enough to keep even the ornary ones moving, light enough to not push too hard to scatter them, soft enough for me not to have to worry about hurting them. Not a traditional job for sure but she loved it!!! So did her daughter.

Then I have a dog that never cared much about sheep. Just frisbees and large stock. We worked the roping pen almost by ourselves (while dating the occaisional roper!). Again, nothing pretty and fancy to watch but a blast for me. Real work (ok so if you do not consider roping in a pen real then maybe not ).

For me all of those things are fun.

I do have mixed feelings about trials (yet to have a dog ready to do one), or too many alternate uses when it comes to the integrity of the stock used for breeding.

But like Pax already mentioned the bond, the joy, the experiences is what makes me enjoy the company of my guys and enjoy whatever I can do with them.

[Guest pax]

There's one other thing which I didn't mention before but which I have thought about a lot.

 

Let's face it. Individual farmers have faced, and will continue to face, being squeezed out. If you aren't ConAgra, baby, you aren't financially viable.

 

As much as people might flame me for the thoughts that follow, I'm going to throw them out. I'd love it if it got picked up and discussed. I'd really like to hear what people think. These are just thoughts, not intended to be a cohesive argument. I can't argue, I don't know enough.

 

I think if there is not a constant influx of new blood, the tradition will die. You can take the newbies in and help mold them and "train them up" right, or we newbies can be blown off by the "real shepherds" who will eventually go the way of the dodo, taking their knowledge and culture with them.

 

I have yet to hear anyone say they are working dear old Granddad's sheep farm, which I think is sometimes what people would like us all to believe about the depth of their stock experience.

 

I am happy to devote myself to trying to maintain it, but I am limited by a lot of things. And, it may be hubris to consider myself capable of someday promoting a culture I happen to enjoy. I might be so bad the sheep herding world might be better off if I take up ant farms. Who knows?

 

What I DO know is I am coming from a tradition every bit as old and probably even more nuanced. And I fight like hell every day to make sure my kids are conducting themselves appropriately to honour the tradition. And I do that with a new pack of kids EVERY YEAR. New parents who need to be made to understood how it is. It's a battle. It's worth fighting. I pass it on where I can. The ones that don't get it move on. The ones who stick around need all the help they can get, because they are going to be teaching the next ones.

 

Like it or not, sheep herding as a life long primary career is on the decline. I am one of those people who would rather preserve as much as possible (a glass half full person, if you like) than to see the whole thing come to a long, slow, grinding halt.

 

 

So there ya go. My two cents and worth every penny. Now, I will go find some flame proof undies.

 

 

Edited to add: Kirsty, I agree with a lot of what you said, you put my thoughts into words better than I can.

[Bo Peep]

I think having any breed and taking them out to do what they were bred to do and all of a sudden you can actually see that light bulb go off in their head saying- "yea, that's it- that's why I'm here". The look in the dogs eyes, the smile on your face, the bond between the two of you. It couldn't be by accident. The pet retriever that heard a quack and a splash while on a walk, a husky pulling his family kids on a sled through the snow, or a border collie going for a walk along a country side and spotting some sheep and crouching into position. It's magical. That's what it's all about. Having a happy dog doing what it was bred to do.

[Sue R]

We don't have cattle for a living but Ed is very serious about it for something that isn't just a hobby. Having the farm and stock (and the veggie garden and orchard and blueberries, etc.) fulfills a deep need he has to produce food and work with the land, I guess.

 

We got the dogs because we needed them or, more pointedly, because I needed help with handling and moving the cattle. My deepening dislike of the non-profitable cattle operation that my husband so needed was not good. Getting the dogs has not only helped me tremendously with work that needs to be done but it's improved my whole outlook on having to do things with the cattle - chores, moving stock, working and vaccinating, etc.

 

In addition, the dogs have opened a whole new world for me - as a homemaker of many years, I have done things that were unimaginable for me a few years ago. I just got back from a week in KY, camping in my tiny camper, helping at the Bluegrass - this is a woman who virtually never went anywhere or did anything on her own before she got her pup a few years ago.

 

I've made plans and reservations, figured out routes to places I've never been by myself, entered trials occasionally, participated in clinics, made friends, bought my own little camper, helped out, and all because I got a dog to help on the farm. This has truly been a life-changing experience for me. And I just couldn't picture my life again without at least one of these amazing dogs at my side, whether or not I had livestock - I need the dog(s) for me as much as for the farm, if not more so.

 

Thanks for starting this topic but maybe I've strayed...

[Bill Fosher]

Pax,

 

The very reason for the existance of Border collies is agricultural consolidation. When the English landowners started clearing the land of small holding tenant farmers in Scotland and the bordering counties of England, suddenly a shepherd had to tend hundreds of sheep across hudnreds of acres, not just the sheep he needed for his own family. A dog that would help him do it became essential.

 

Agricultural consolidation today does not necessarily mean the end of the culture. ConAgra is not interested in producing lambs or running cow-calf operations. It, and the other conglomerates, are interested in adding value to commodities and diversifying risk by feeding grain to cattle, hogs, chickens, and to a lesser extent, lambs. Feedlots don't particularly need dogs, but the range flocks and cow-calf operations that produce the lambs and steers that go into the feedlots do. One of the biggest costs of production in both lamb production and cow-calf operations is labor. If one shepherd can tend 1,000 ewes with a dog, or 100 without one, the dog will have a job.

 

I am actually not sure I buy the idea that bigger and more mechanized=more financial viable, either. I have drawn a paycheck more reliably running my low-input flock of 80 than I did when I was running a more intensively farmed flock of 750. Primarily because when I downsized I paid off my debts and have not taken on any more. If I can't do something with cash, I don't do it anymore.

[Laura L]

I am actually not sure I buy the idea that bigger and more mechanized=more financial viable, either. I have drawn a paycheck more reliably running my low-input flock of 80 than I did when I was running a more intensively farmed flock of 750. Primarily because when I downsized I paid off my debts and have not taken on any more. If I can't do something with cash, I don't do it anymore.

 

This is what I'm hoping proves to be true for me too. I'm going from 452 ewes plus lambs, down to about 110 ewes with lambs. Realistically it will take about a year to pay off the debts.

 

But now I can go out and move fence on my schedule, move the sheep where I want, do the regular chores on my schedule and the dogs are getting worked every day. They are happy. The sheep are happy. And I am happy. I'm starting to look at my job off the farm as my second job-I still enjoy it, but the farm work is better.

 

It's the peacefulness of being outside and doing what you want to do.

 

Laura

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

I like the questions the poster asked, very thoughtful, and the kind of stuff I wrestle with all the time.

 

As a kid, I wasn't in a home that allowed dogs. We had a cat, and that was our pet, but I was a kid who was passionate about animals, mostly horses and then dogs. I connected with my grandmother's big mixed breed dog, a neighbors poodle, and those were my salvation. I got into horses once my parents split up-- lessons, then as a working student, and we found a dog going out to the barn, and we got to keep it! My life was taking direction. Long story short of it, animals (dogs and horses) have saved me, shaped me, and given me purpose, and I am a pet (dog) professional as a vocation and horseman (14), and sharing this life with kids who, like me, need them to be whole. Sounds kind of hokey, but I see it as God's plan for me. The animals in my life clarify the world I live in. Working at dog trials is my way of taking a vacation.

 

Anyway, when I got Border Collies, I ended up falling in love with sheep (I really love them). I love my dogs, they are what I see as the perfect canine being, bred for a purpose, pure and simple, and the privilege of having my dogs comes with an obligation to keep them in a life that allows them to have what they need to be whole. MY personal dilemma has been, more recently than before, what am I doing to my poor dogs by not being a better handler/trainer, and sometimes it just brings me to tears. I think the world of my dogs, but I'm not a total head-in-the-sand idiot and I see what they are and what they aren't, both by their natural instinct (potential) and what I've created in their training. MOst of the time we get the job done, and sometimes we screw it up. I can wish all I want, but I know it takes a tremendous amount of time to train a dog to be really useful, and I don't have the time (and sheep access) I'd like to do that, and having good enough dogs with good enough training gets it done for me, and I wonder if THAT's fair.

 

I've been to two trials now in the past two weeks, not as a competitor, but as a volunteer or paid crew, and depending on the situation, I felt either very competent or not so, and really wondered if I was embarrassing my dogs by my lack of ability with them (not showing them to be the dogs they would be if they weren't with me). I was at a trial this weekend where my dogs were really great, the sheep were tough and they handled what they did beautifully. There were a lot of good dogs competing who found these sheep a challenge, same as last weekend in KY. I love the work I do, except for the times when I run up on situations where I fall short on being able to do something that exposes my weakness in training, no fault of the dog, and for feeling like someone's going to think my dog is the root of the problem, if I had a "better" dog, it'd not be so. That's my problem, my insecurity.

 

Trialling does help prove the dogs, but it isn't all there is, and it does take on a lot of "sport" characteristics. If I wanted to find a new dog, I could have found one at the trials I've been to recently. Some dogs have the right stuff, but they aren't always running from the post. "Well-bred" is not always matching up a couple of trial-winning dogs if they can only handle the stress of lots of training and working trial sheep who have been worked by dogs all their lives. I admire the dogs who I see at trials that can handle a little set-out work, then go run and win a ribbon, and the ones who can handle those sheep Robin talked about, consistently and well.

 

Taking this to the poster's points, bottom-line, I love using my dogs, and where they could not run an open course (my fault), they can handle sheep some open dogs have trouble with, in tight places like the pen, and sheepy-stressful things like taking three sheep away from their flock to go stand out in the middle of a field, and then allowing for another dog to come out and take them away from them, and not lose their cool. They've been run over, rammed, and horse-raced into fences and they don't lose it. If I give them time, they'll be able to wait out a sheep that needs to think about her options (fight the dog or go where the freedom from the dogs is), and we are a team when we work at a trial. I imagine it's what the handler feels when they complete a course well-run. Being's how I love the sheep, and I love the work, getting to do what I do WITH my dogs, what could be better? To ditto Renee's observation, I am humbled and amazed when my dogs, especially Simon and Luke (rest your soul, buddy, I miss you) do what they do without having me even have to say a word, when they know what's needed and step in and do it, and then step out quietly, and do it 60-100 times in a day. Sometimes I just can't stand it, it's such a good feeling.

 

I hope the dogs feel as good. I think they do.

[stockdogranch]

Taking this to the poster's points, bottom-line, I love using my dogs, and where they could not run an open course (my fault), they can handle sheep some open dogs have trouble with, in tight places like the pen, and sheepy-stressful things like taking three sheep away from their flock to go stand out in the middle of a field, and then allowing for another dog to come out and take them away from them, and not lose their cool. They've been run over, rammed, and horse-raced into fences and they don't lose it. If I give them time, they'll be able to wait out a sheep that needs to think about her options (fight the dog or go where the freedom from the dogs is), and we are a team when we work at a trial.

 

YES!!!!! I absolutely LOVE doing setout (as well as just regular chores around the place)! And you have nicely articulated the reasons why. I generally don't compete at sheep trials (but we DO compete at cattle trials), but my dogs WORK sheep, every day. And the best thing is: they PAY me to work my dogs at big sheep trials doing setout. And, yes, while the competing dogs work one group of three sheep and get them around the course (hopefully), my dogs handle EVERY group of three sheep that day, yes, in the pens, doing calm, close work, taking them away from their sheepy friends in the put out pen, and allowing another dog to come take them away down the field. How cool is that? Trialling is great, and winning a big trial is way cool, but just doing the work, day in and day out, and knowing that I have dogs that are capable of doing the work, no matter what the job, where it is, or whatever kind of stock it is, to me--that's it. And I KNOW the dogs dig it as much as I do, even though it usually means 14-16 hour days, non-stop...

Anna