What org. do you prefer for agility?

[haleigh]

USDA, or NADAC? Also, are their any places for Rally not affiliated with the AKC? I'm just finishing up basic obedience, and when I 'm finished with intermediate I'm signing Joy up for a rally course, then following up with agility.

[Barb Scott]

USDA, or NADAC? Also, are their any places for Rally not affiliated with the AKC? I'm just finishing up basic obedience, and when I 'm finished with intermediate I'm signing Joy up for a rally course, then following up with agility.

Beside USDAA and NADAC, CPE is another agility venue, depending on what area of the country you're in. They have lots of games, plus lower jump heights than USDAA.

Barb S

[Kat's Dogs]

I like all three for different reasons - they are all so different it is hard to pick a favorite. Although right now I only do NADAC we are soon going to start in USDAA and CPE, and I have run some of their courses and like them.

 

There are other places that offer Rally:

Mixed Breed Dog Club of America

American Mixed Breed Obedience Registration

Association of Pet Dog Trainers

and then of course the AKC. Those all have the same rules, and in all but AKC pure and and mixed breed dogs are welcome.

[Rave]

1. USDAA ... Hands down, this venue rocks!! Will travel anywhere for these! fun, competitive, challenging, great atmosphere, the best of the best compete here. Competing here will only make you a better handler.

 

2. AAC ... just started this venue and LOVE it... people are great, courses are fun yet challenging... very supportive of newbies - with course familiarization! The *nicest* set of people you'll ever encounter in agility, because after all, they are Canadian! :-)

 

3. NADAC ... used to do this almost exclusively... too many changes though and slatless sucks for recognition of obstacles... no challenge at all, just flat out running. too easy, courses are boring at best. will do local trials only if there's nothing else to do that weekend. I'll do flyball before NADAC... lol.

 

I do 90% USDAA, 9.5% AAC, 0.5% NADAC

 

-Laura (for the pups)

[airbear]

Our favourite is AAC, because, well, we're Canadian and that's mostly what we have here! USDAA would be our favourite if there were many trials close to us. So far, we're averaging 4.5 hours driving each way for a USDAA trial. But I agree with Laura - you want to see the best dogs and handlers, they're doing USDAA.

 

I like NADAC though it's not as challenging as AAC or USDAA. I think it's a nice venue to bring out a young dog (tunnelers, for example!), but with all the changes in the rules and equipment, I've about given up. I think Gators was the last straw.

 

But really, the best venue is the one where you feel comfortable, where the trials don't require 2 or 3 days off work, and where your dog has fun.

[Rosanne]

AAC is very much like a Canadian USDAA is it not? That was my impression anyway. . .

 

 

I do almost exclusively USDAA. They are actually geared for competition, and consider it a sport, unlike AKC which considers it, well, I don't know what but it's about control and getting titles. USDAA has fun people, fun judges (for the most part) and fun courses. You do have to train your dog before entering though, and they don't allow training in the ring (not like NADAC, anyway; they are much more lenient than AKC). USDAA's main stated goal is to have an international level sports competition.

 

NADAC on the other hand is more geared towards safety and fun. This is great for newbies, I guess, but I passed that stage waaaay long ago:-)

Also, as somebody else mentioned, the rule changes and slatless contacts (not to mention the ridiculously low a-frame) steer me away. I will go herding if there are no USDAA trials nearby!

I don't know how bad it is today, but years ago when I tried NADAC there was a subjective rule that if a judge thought your dog executed something 'unsafely', whether or not he hit the contacts/stuck his see-saw, they could fault you. Needless to say, my dog got faulted a LOT. My current dog is even scarier to watch, so I really don't think NADAC would like him very much. (slams the see-saw, puts 2 strides the a-frame, runs full-speed over the dog-walk, etc)

 

I consider CPE to be a fun-league for new people. That's great if you're new and want to have fun! I'm not new, and while I do have fun, I like the real competition of USDAA. USDAA makes you push yourself and your dog a little. In a good way.

[Pat W.]

I'm with Roseanne and Laura, USDAA is the best out there IMO. I've tried Ack er AKC and NADAC, AKC my steady eddie dog was in excellent A Std and Jumpers in 3 trials it offered no challenge for us. NADAC is fine if you like to run like you're on fire all the time. I have a VERY fast aussie and VERY short legs and although you get plenty of bang for your buck I kept looking for the O2 halfway around the course! USDAA has great judges, people and trial sites plus theres plenty of local ones for me to get to easily. USDAA challenges both the dog and handler in its course style

[Root Beer]

For Rally, check out APDT. The biggest problem with APDT is that there aren't events available everywhere, but it is growing and I think there are some trials out your way.

 

You can find info about everything - rules, events, etc. here:

 

http://www.apdt.com/po/rally/default.aspx

 

Right now in the United States, APDT Rally is the only option outside of AKC. UKC was planning to start it, but it never happened.

[Northof49]

3. NADAC ... used to do this almost exclusively... too many changes though and slatless sucks for recognition of obstacles... no challenge at all, just flat out running. too easy, courses are boring at best. will do local trials only if there's nothing else to do that weekend. I'll do flyball before NADAC... lol.

 

Whether or not a piece of contact equipment has slats on it has absolutely nothing to do with a dog understanding which obstacle is which. I have never encountered this problem with my dogs or any other dogs I have helped train in 17 years. The slats are not what makes each piece of contact equipment identifiable to the dog. The problem comes in with people thinking that their dog knows obstacle discrimination when it really doesn't.

[Rosanne]

3. NADAC ... used to do this almost exclusively... too many changes though and slatless sucks for recognition of obstacles... no challenge at all, just flat out running. too easy, courses are boring at best. will do local trials only if there's nothing else to do that weekend. I'll do flyball before NADAC... lol.

 

Whether or not a piece of contact equipment has slats on it has absolutely nothing to do with a dog understanding which obstacle is which. I have never encountered this problem with my dogs or any other dogs I have helped train in 17 years. The slats are not what makes each piece of contact equipment identifiable to the dog. The problem comes in with people thinking that their dog knows obstacle discrimination when it really doesn't.

 

 

What happens is that dogs who are trained on only slatted dogwalks suddenly encounter one without slats and think it's a see-saw. I HAVE seen this happen on slatless training equipment with well-trained Masters dogs who have only seen slatless = see-saw in their lives.

 

If you train on both slatted and slatless dogwalks it should not be a problem.

[Northof49]

What happens is that dogs who are trained on only slatted dogwalks suddenly encounter one without slats and think it's a see-saw. I HAVE seen this happen on slatless training equipment with well-trained Masters dogs who have only seen slatless = see-saw in their lives.

 

 

What I have found with dogs like these is if you put the dogwalk and teeter out, and ask the dog for either one of them at any distance, they can't pick which one is which.

[Rosanne]

What happens is that dogs who are trained on only slatted dogwalks suddenly encounter one without slats and think it's a see-saw. I HAVE seen this happen on slatless training equipment with well-trained Masters dogs who have only seen slatless = see-saw in their lives.

What I have found with dogs like these is if you put the dogwalk and teeter out, and ask the dog for either one of them at any distance, they can't pick which one is which.

 

 

I don't train based on verbals and don't even have contacts at home. I use my body position to steer through discriminations.

That's not really the same thing as being confused by a slatless ramp anyway. My dogs never stop on the up-ramp of the dogwalk and rarely fly off the see-saw. And with USDAA being my primary competition I feel absolutely no need to train them past the confusion of a slatless dog walk ramp. Like I said, anybody who trains on both types of dogwalk should be fine.

 

I find that most people have very opinionated feelings about NADAC - they either love it or would never show their dogs in it.

I fall towards the latter camp, but still recommend it for new people or those who need a venue to motivate or train a dog in the ring.

[CLW1]

What happens is that dogs who are trained on only slatted dogwalks suddenly encounter one without slats and think it's a see-saw. I HAVE seen this happen on slatless training equipment with well-trained Masters dogs who have only seen slatless = see-saw in their lives.

What I have found with dogs like these is if you put the dogwalk and teeter out, and ask the dog for either one of them at any distance, they can't pick which one is which.

 

All of my dogs have trouble with the slatless dog walk because they mistake it for the teeter and I've seen many other experienced dogs (that don't do a lot of NADAC) have the same problem. They think it's the teeter because of the lack of slats and on a straight approach it looks just like a teeter to them. Then, when it doesn't tip they either freeze or bail off. I don't do NADAC anymore, and probably only did 2 or 3 trials after the switch to slatless equipment, but I know that I was seeing confusion on the part of my dogs when they went over their first or second slatless dog walk of the trial. It had nothing to do with obstacle discrimination.

[SoloRiver]

Solo's retired, but I used to LOVE NADAC because they allow training in the ring. That means that if you or your dog screw up, you can actually salvage it as a training opportunity instead of just ending the game, which can be incredibly counterproductive for some dogs.

 

When I was competing with Solo (not that we competed all that much) we would always have one of two results: we would finish well under time with a clean run, or Solo would spook at the judge and we'd DQ. Solo finds agility incredibly rewarding and discontinuation/not being allowed to do agility to be quite aversive (the most effective way to teach him not to break his startline stays was to simply say "oh well" and walk off the course), so the last thing I wanted to teach him was that the appearance of the scary stranger (the judge) ends the game.

 

And the games are awesome for getting your dog started. Solo's only title is a Tunnelers title -- we loved Tunnelers because the judge doesn't follow you around (Solo finds being followed and stared at very creepy) -- in fact at one trial the judge did not even stand in the ring, she stayed off to one side because the view of the whole ring was better from there. It's too bad the founder seems to be self-destructing the organization.

 

Never tried CPE but I hear it's very similar to what NADAC used to be.

[Rave]

It has been proven to me time and time again dogs have a hard time differentiating the slatless dogwalk and teeter. I've seen this on both coasts now. Thankfully most teeters have bases that extend out on the sides, that and consistent cone placement has helped my dogs. One trial I remember quite well, the teeter base did not extend out... dog after dog after dog flew off it... then proceeded to stop 2/3 of the way up the dogwalk up-ramp. These were mostly seasoned dogs. Look at it from a dog's POV... it's sometimes impossible to tell the difference between the two, something I'm not comfortable with.

 

Yes, AAC is a Canuck version of USDAA... same non-tourney classes, and they do have steeplechase. Biggest complaint with them is the inconsistency in equipment... they can have slatted and slatless at the same trial. However, they do allow familiarization, which I took full advantage of, even with my Masters dog to help her with the slatless. Novice and Adv courses resemble NADAC-type courses, maybe a little tougher... AAC Masters resembles USDAA Masters. But, I've only been to two trials put on by the same club, so I'm nowhere near the expert here. Oh, and they do allow training in the ring. Moving up is easier than USDAA... Wick is in Masters Jumpers after two trials and Adv everything else (and only b/c I didn't enter her in everything her first trial).

 

Is what I heard about the Gators class true? That it's just jump standards and bar on the ground? LMAO So NADAC finally succeeded in painting lines on ground and calling it agility? HAHAHHAHAAAAHAHAAAAAAAA

[airbear]

...Moving up is easier than USDAA... Wick is in Masters Jumpers after two trials and Adv everything else (and only b/c I didn't enter her in everything her first trial).

We allow same-DAY move-ups (or at least, our club did at the last trial) so you can make quite a bit of progress in a weekend.

 

Poor old Bear was in Masters Gamblers in his third trial, and it took us FOUR years to get that title. Hmm, come to think of it, Wick is coming up on 2 years in Masters Gamblers without a Q. Obviously, I am an excellent trainer of distance. I am trying to convince the powers-that-be in the AAC that we should be able to trade games Qs. For example, we have a lot of Jumpers and Steeplechase Qs that I would be willing to trade for 3 measly Gamblers Qs ... sigh.

 

You can search YouTube to see a Hoopers course. I haven't seen a Gators course yet - maybe they're not running it until they can ensure that the gates are safe.

[Kat's Dogs]

SAME DAY move ups?!?!?! I want those in NADAC!! Some trials aren't even offering day to day move ups. All those "wasted" runs and Qs Dazzle has/will have. *sigh* What can ya do?

 

I saw the hoopers video. I just know that Dazzle will get way excited and run like mad, but also make up her OWN course. We get our first Hoopers run on memorial day weekend. Should be interesting....

[Rave]

yeah I knew about same day moveups... thought that was cool! if my Adv. pairs partner had a dog who could actually weave, we may have used that... lol.

 

Kristi, you've done both USDAA and AAC, and far more AAC than I have, would you agree with my comparison based on my limited experience?

 

One thing I noticed at the last AAC trial was a LOT of people didn't know when to call it quits when a run had gone poorly. I was ring crew for 1/2 of Steeplechase and dog after dog used max course time just to try to do the weaves. it was painful to watch and hard not to fall asleep.

 

I do LOVE the double drop for Vet's... meaning old dogs can drop down two jump heights. I moved Zoe to 10" for the next one. :-) It was funny seeing little Zoe competing against Unia and Raya in 16" Vet's at the last trial! lol

 

Anyone in the PAC NW, I *highly* recommend any of the PAC AAC trials in Abbottsford, BC.... great club, nice site, and 6-8 Steeplechases with a huge money pot at the end of the weekend. Only a 2 hour drive from North Seattle.

[airbear]

One thing I noticed at the last AAC trial was a LOT of people didn't know when to call it quits when a run had gone poorly. I was ring crew for 1/2 of Steeplechase and dog after dog used max course time just to try to do the weaves. it was painful to watch and hard not to fall asleep.

Actually, I notice this more in NADAC Weavers, a class I refuse to gate (and I love gating) because it makes me sad watching handler after handler forcing their dogs to weave when the dog either (1) isn't used to doing 12 poles, (2) can't make the entrance from the side the handler wants, or (3) doesn't like to weave. I gave Bear two shots at Weavers, and he told me in no uncertain terms that he didn't like the class. Fine, we won't do it, don't need a versatility title THAT badly.

 

Re: using max course time in Steeplechase, that surprises me. Usually, it's a pretty speedy class. Perhaps because it's open to all dogs (including Starters) that's why it ran ugly? Wish I'd been there, though. PAC Run for the $$ is so much fun!! Last PAC was especially funny, as my friends thought my Wick was doing so well in the qualifying rounds. "You've placed in 6 of them!" said they. "Actually," said I, "Evil Wick has only placed in 2. Have you met Good Wick?"

 

And finally, WRT to equipment conformity, I think you're right, if your dog uses slats/no slats as the criteria for determining (at a high rate of speed) whether that piece of equipment is going to tip or is going to go on for a long time, then yeah, you can screw a dog up. I have a slatless DW and slatless teeter, so whatever criteria Wick uses to distinguish the 2 (and it's not verbal, I really don't think she knows the equipment names) doesn't involve looking for slats. Heck, it's only this year that AAC has banned slatted TEETERS, and finally removed the dreaded cross-over (I would pull my dogs if that thing was in the course, as they had no opportunity to practice on it).

 

The other thing that screws up some dogs is the breakaway tire. IMO, though, it's the best thing ever! I cringe watching big dogs going through that wee little USDAA fixed tire (what is that, the diameter of a dinner plate?) and I've seen quite a few crashes in the few trials that I've been to.

 

Hey, did you hear that DAM at the NW Regionals is on Monday? I think I might give that a skip.

 

ETA: She moved Raya to 16"? How insanely fast is Ray-ray going now???

[MrSnappy]

ETA: She moved Raya to 16"? How insanely fast is Ray-ray going now???

 

Raya Raya? THE Raya? As someone who takes a class with Raya (and I have to cover Piper's eyes or they bulge out of her head when Raya runs) I can tell you that Raya is still pretty damn fast. Scary fast, actually.

 

If you mean another Raya, I will sidle out of the conversation examining my fingernails casually like I was never here.

 

RDM

[Kat's Dogs]

That makes me cringe too - watching handlers continue when it is clear the dog can't/won't do it. You just want to cry "PLEASE STOP! Although I have seen the same at fun matches too - novice dogs/handlers try to struggle through the elite courses even though the dog doesn't have the skills - and for what reason?

 

Slats/no slats doesn't phase Dazzle either way. I don't know how she knows the difference but she does. She has done slatted teeters, slatted dogwalks, and rubber, and smooth - she just doesn't care.

[airbear]

If you mean another Raya, I will sidle out of the conversation examining my fingernails casually like I was never here.

The Raya that I was asking about is the same one. I guess she's earned the double-drop, but can you imagine how fast she must be over 16"?

 

Raya is the only dog who has made Lou sit up and watch at an agility trial (besides Wick, of course, but Lou worships Wick). He clearly thought Raya was the bomb - and he's right. Man, I hated running Bear after Raya ran, back when we did 26". The judge would be all excited and pumped, and then Bear would come out and walk briskly around the course . <cringing slightly at the memory>

[Rave]

actually I was remembering incorrectly... I'm @ home sick now, so not of the best mind... "Open" dogs now compete together in Steeplechase, although at their own height. I remember them changing the jump heights for Raya now. That is SUCH a cool dog!

[SoloRiver]

It has been proven to me time and time again dogs have a hard time differentiating the slatless dogwalk and teeter. I've seen this on both coasts now.

 

It happened at Solo's first trial, which was right after NADAC decided to either start experimenting with slatless or go slatless altogether. Most of the dogs at the trial had not seen slatless equipment before. There was a spot on the upramp to the dogwalk where nearly every dog would pause and flatten out -- clearly expecting the obstacle to start tipping. Some of them figured it out, a lot of them didn't and bailed. Solo made it over but it ruined his teeter for a while. Since the equipment had "betrayed" him he lost trust in it and would jump off the teeter at the tipping point. Eventually he got over it but he was very confused for a while.

 

This is striking because although Solo is, um, weird about social interactions and noises he has next to no fear of objects or obstacles. He has had some of the worst equipment wipeouts I or anyone who witnessed them has ever seen, including running into a tangled chute that was pushed up against a wall, and then having a table fall over on top of him while he was tangled in the chute, and slipping while leaving a table at full speed, doing a full somersault and a half for good measure, and landing on his head. Those mishaps did nothing to him (he happily did the same equipment less than five minutes later) because they were mishaps he understood, but he could not understand how the teeter suddenly turned into a dogwalk and so it boggled him.

 

At the same trial with the problem dogwalk, they also had a slatless A-frame and none of the dogs had any problems with that. An A-frame can't be mistaken for any other piece of equipment from a dog's point of view.

[abbies_mumma]

I saw the hoopers video. I just know that Dazzle will get way excited and run like mad, but also make up her OWN course. We get our first Hoopers run on memorial day weekend. Should be interesting....

They had hoopers at Abbie's 1st agility trial (14th April). It looked like heaps of fun but i didn't enter because I didn't want to add any more runs onto our list incase Abbie had enough by the end of the day.

 

 

It happened at Solo's first trial, which was right after NADAC decided to either start experimenting with slatless or go slatless altogether. Most of the dogs at the trial had not seen slatless equipment before. There was a spot on the upramp to the dogwalk where nearly every dog would pause and flatten out -- clearly expecting the obstacle to start tipping. Some of them figured it out, a lot of them didn't and bailed. Solo made it over but it ruined his teeter for a while. Since the equipment had "betrayed" him he lost trust in it and would jump off the teeter at the tipping point. Eventually he got over it but he was very confused for a while.

 

This is striking because although Solo is, um, weird about social interactions and noises he has next to no fear of objects or obstacles. He has had some of the worst equipment wipeouts I or anyone who witnessed them has ever seen, including running into a tangled chute that was pushed up against a wall, and then having a table fall over on top of him while he was tangled in the chute, and slipping while leaving a table at full speed, doing a full somersault and a half for good measure, and landing on his head. Those mishaps did nothing to him (he happily did the same equipment less than five minutes later) because they were mishaps he understood, but he could not understand how the teeter suddenly turned into a dogwalk and so it boggled him.

 

At the same trial with the problem dogwalk, they also had a slatless A-frame and none of the dogs had any problems with that. An A-frame can't be mistaken for any other piece of equipment from a dog's point of view.

Abbie had only ever seen a dogwalk and a-frame with slats before our first trial and I think thats why she wouldn't go up the dogwalk the first time at the trial.

 

As to the original question...I've only ever done a NADAC trial (only had one trial!) and it was a very friendly environment. Everyone was nice to me as it was my first trial and the courses were good. In Australia we only have ANKC and NADAC (Aust. div.) so I may do ANKC one day...