Little Bo Boop Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Here are two saddleback dogs Stella's mother, (who is also white factored) which I didn't know at the time (and thats another question I have ;-) ) would she be considerd WF because of the blue/gray around her rough? And some on her head, and I suppose you can see some on the gaskin as well... Stella's brother Brock, who is another saddleback tri? and great grandma, Jean. And I just looked at the comparison of Jean and Brock, almost identical. scary. Also, would this brother be considered WF as well? I guess I can't quite see that...although he was born white...will two WF dogs only throw WF dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I would call the mom and Brock and Jean - Saddleback Sable Mom - I don't see the WF on her, could be hidden in the coloration on her back legs though. The rough and head are normal areas of white markings. I don't think Brock is a Tri - if he's a sable. The bottom brother I think is a white dog, black ticked, tri points. His tri points are obvious on his head, however, knowing the family tree in pictures, he too could be a sable dog just w/o the saddle. I'd still be inclined to call him a W/Bl Ticked w/Tan points. As for WF pups from 2 WF parents, not always, I've seen WF pups from only one WF parent and no WF pups from parents with WF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 The S allele is the white marker and it has incomplete dominence. Say you have have 3 dogs thate are SpSi (one gene for piebald, the other for irish spotting-traditional). One dog could be mostly white, one could be irish/traditional, and one could just be a a irish with some extra white up the side. The genes modify each other in ?? ways - we just know that they do. I can't see the pictures from here, but journey described them to me and I think she's close if not right. I've seen Stella pics before and I call her a blue mottle sable with ticking. Blue mottle is an old color, presenting over time like a Dalmation (starts white, then that bluish black color comes in over weeks like ticking, but it's about the body and not the legs/face) prominent in a few lines. Lewis Pulfer's Dell had a brother that color. Jack I think his name was - he's in some of our pedigrees and behind some of Ivan Weir's dogs. I've seen some offspring (pups, grands,and greatgrands) of Dell that color. We had one years ago we called Stone. Judith Kelley's Trace (a Dell daughter) was that color as well. Also remember that tan points over grow over white with age, particularily at the stifle, making a dog appear to be non-white factored. If you clipped the tan away though, you'd find white at the base. Lots of people tend to think that sable is just the saddleback version. Sable is just prominent yellow banding on the hairs - if a lot of yellow you get a lassie collie color, if just a little all over and the black banding is the majority you get a hazy "tri". If the black banding is promiment over the back but not the rest - you get a saddle back sable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I would say the bottom brother is definitely a predominately white tri, with a lot of ticking in the white. I've never seen a dog with that much white who didn't have white factor coming from both parents, so I assume the mother must carry it, even though this picture of her doesn't clearly establish it. As Karen says, the white around her ruff and face is normal Irish pattern, not indicating white factor, but white going up the front of the stifle (like Brock has) indicates white factor, and this picture of the mom is inconclusive. The picture of Jean doesn't show enough of the dog for any judgment to be made about white factor. This is all based on traditional thinking about color genetics. With all the genetic research into color that is going on right now, I guess everything we say is subject to correction within the next few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Blue mottle is an old color, presenting over time like a Dalmation (starts white, then that bluish black color comes in over weeks like ticking, but it's about the body and not the legs/face) prominent in a few lines. But ticking also starts white and then comes in over weeks, like a Dalmatian. True, ticking is usually seen on the legs/face, but isn't that only because in an Irish-patterned dog that's where the white is? In a color-headed, white-bodied dog, the white is also on the body, and therefore ticking would present there as well. So while I have heard the term "blue mottle," and I have nothing against it, I don't see where genetically it is any different from extreme white with ticking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Mottles have a distinct blue cast. Once you've seen one it's very easy to tell apart from ticking. With ticking - it does come in later, but it's like "boom!" and its there and done over a few days. The mottles develop over weeks to months. Sometimes you see cast changes again at 6 month, a year. Similar to the Blue heeler in that - which has Dalmation heritage. . But ticking also starts white and then comes in over weeks, like a Dalmatian. True, ticking is usually seen on the legs/face, but isn't that only because in an Irish-patterned dog that's where the white is? In a color-headed, white-bodied dog, the white is also on the body, and therefore ticking would present there as well. So while I have heard the term "blue mottle," and I have nothing against it, I don't see where genetically it is any different from extreme white with ticking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 My Pip is white with ticking. He was born white and the ticking appeared over months. If you run his hair backward, he is actually mostly black beneath his white guard hairs. My point being that his ticking didn't happen "overnight" but appeared gradually over a longer period of time (up to a year, I'd say). In the photo of Stella's mother, it's pretty obvious to me that she has white, not tan, going up her stifle, and on that basis alone I'd call her white factored. Twist is a piebald dog with medium ticking and was bred to a more traditional looking white factored dog (just white up the stifles and a wide white collar) with minor ticking. Of eight pups, one was mostly black, with what little white he had heavily ticked; two were traditionally Irish marked, little or no ticking; one was typical Irish with heavy ticking in the white parts; one was piebald with little ticking; and two were piebald but so heavily ticked that they appear dark all over; and one was white with a black mask and ears and ticking over the back and rump (Pip, whom I mentioned above). So two WF factored dogs can throw dogs that are phenotypically not WF, but I'd imagine the likelihood that they carried and could pass one genes for WF would be pretty high. I am a bit confused about sable vs. tri. I call my Lark tri, but her head, though it appears black is actually tan with black tipped hairs. If you rub the hair backward on her head, there's a lot of tan under the apparent black. Her body is not that way, though she does have tan that peeks through on the area just behind her shoulder and in front of her rib cage, from wither to elbow. I had always been told this was an "extended tri." Is it, or is it sable? J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Going back to my Sheltie color chart I would say she (Lark) is a sable then. If the hair is "banded" it's sable. Tri isn't a 2 color hair, it's just the color marking itself in the standard local. Which leads me back to the question in the other thread - are some of the black and tri dogs really black or is the tri smudging we see sable coming through and they are not really black dogs? eta - I don't think anyone would mind a picture of lark posted here though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Lark is a black shaded sable. There is question right now if the true tri even exists in this breed. True tri is only in the specific places (like Rottie or Dobie) and you rarely see that in this breed. If you have questions you can look at Lark's hair under a microscope. If it's banded, it's sable. Tri points are all one color root to tip. I would call Pip ticked too, but I think you would agree that it's a totally different color than Stella. I shouldn't have made my description of the appearance of ticking as so abrupt. (though often it is) It is definately abrupt compared to mottling. I watched Stone from black and white, to basically blue and white over a 2 year period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 I've mainly studied rat and cat color genetics, so this is pretty interesting. Is the sable gene a modified form of the agouti gene (like on huskies - bands of grey, black, tan, and white), I wonder? Basically, in rats it is dominant and considered the wild-type. Recessive would be the gene that codes for even color deposition. The hair banding makes the coat more cryptic than a bold solid color or solid irish spotting, so has real evolutionary benefits to non-domesticated animals. (Although, double-dominant agouti mice apparently have some health issues, while agouti doesn't have any ill effects on rats). Here's what I found on the Dalmatian vs. ticking issue: "Some authors, such as Little (1957) and Sponenberg and Rothschild, suggest that Dalmatian spots are caused by the same gene as ticking. The Dalmatian above illustrates the typical pattern. When comparing the Dalmatian to the ticked hunting dogs above, there is some similarity but also considerable difference. Sponenburg and Rothschild further say that an additional gene for flecking, with the Dalmatian carrying the recessive genotype for "nonflecked", makes the Dalmatian spots distinct on a white background. They distinguish this as a separate gene from roan." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 The only place where Lark's hairs are quite obviously banded is on the top of her head (my Willow is the same way). Heeeere's Larky! (Photo by Robin French) J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 So much info! The other thread gave me a headache... Alex sounds like Lark, color-wise. Just this week, I thought he had a small bald spot on his head, but it was just a place where his tan was showing through. His hair in places is tan or white, with black tips. Head shot. And it's very noticable in the uh, I guess I'd call it upper shoulder area, I hope you can see it in this shot. This one might be better, it shows the tan running all underneath his black. I've wondered if he was tri or sable, too. Edited to fix HUGE picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 the second Lark is a sable as well. a white factored, black banded sable to be precise. Ooky the way all this started is a friend of mine got a black and white pup from a black tri to black tri breeding. Since this is supposed to be impossible, and she knew the breeding/breeders were legitamate and reputable she started looking into the genetics. And she also breeds rats, whose short reproductive cycles make color experimentation an easy thing to do. Her conclusion, after many hairs put under the microscope from both rats and Border Collies LOL, is that black "tri" doesn't exist. They are all agouti, with either black or yellow banding predominate. That's why you can produce black and white when you breed 2 "tri" parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Well this is all very interesting (if confusing ;-) ) I'm still not sure that I would buy that Stelly is a sable though. Sable points maybe? on her head? Here is a progression of color. Stella and Boss (both blue dogs, born white) Stella, with just the patch on her eye, and gray ears, and just a slight hint of tan on her legs. Boss, the other blue dog. Really starting to tick out across her nose, and lots of red showing up. Ears and eye patch really getting dark and taking on a rusty tinge, but her body is still pretty light. this is about 3 months. For comparison, this is Dot, her mother at about the same age. At about 6 or 7 months she started really turning blue, with darker spotting. And you can see the red really starting to show up on here ears, throat and legs. And then of course as an adult, 2 1/2 years old. And this shows how much red she has on her head. I guess you would call parts of that sable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Eak, she's simply adorable! OK, to me she does have the sable appearance, it's just that her body and head isn't solid. Where she is mottled her mother is solid. Not an invert, just no solid body color. And even though she has 3 colors, I wouldn't call her a "tri" as we know it, inconsistent with the typical/classical tri points. Sable is where the hair is 2 colors, banded, can't have sable "points" (last I knew and things are changing!). Now, won't a dilute gene take a sable to a wheaten color? Couldn't she be a "sable roan", is there such? One of a kind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Stella looks like what would happen if you took the stereotypical GSD coloration and sprinkled white all over it. As for the "blue mottle" dogs it sounds like they probably have black skin, which gives them the blue cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 First, Stelly rules. I mean, she really RULES looks-wise. What a gal. Love her! Since we are talking sables, and I hope that you don't mind if I ask about my pup? Let me preface by saying that he is a border collie of questionable heritage (shelter dog), but he is a bit keen, so I think he is at least mostly collie. I have always questioned his coloring, as I have been told he is brindle, sable, black-tipped sable, saddleback sable, AND tri. I have no idea what he is. His hairs on the darker bits are black-tipped, with a tan base. Sorry, I have no pictures of him doing anything even close to work. He is hard-working when he gets the chance (which is rare lately), but mostly he is just my buddy. In fact, my husband has brewed a beer that we named, "Marcus Antonius Happy-Go-Lucky" Ale, if that gives you any indication of his personality. Any comments are appreciated! Karrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Looks like sable (Lassie color) to me, just with more black than some. If he were a horse I'd call him "smutty." Very handsome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bo Boop Posted July 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Eak, she's simply adorable! OK, to me she does have the sable appearance, it's just that her body and head isn't solid. Where she is mottled her mother is solid. Not an invert, just no solid body color. And even though she has 3 colors, I wouldn't call her a "tri" as we know it, inconsistent with the typical/classical tri points. Sable is where the hair is 2 colors, banded, can't have sable "points" (last I knew and things are changing!). Now, won't a dilute gene take a sable to a wheaten color? Couldn't she be a "sable roan", is there such? One of a kind! I understand the sable, tan or yellow hair with black tips, just like the paint brush ;-) It just seems to me though, that just because she has a patch or two of sable on her head, well it wouldn't make her a sable colored dog? I mean if you were describing her without a pic, and said she was a heavily ticked sable, I don't see where that would give you an accurate idea of what she was and/or looked like. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of say a seal point siamese? Or is that all totally apples and oranges? And please, I'm not trying to be pissy or argumentative ;-) just questioning and curious ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 My brain is still spinning...just wanted to say that I vote we name Stelly her own color. Secondly, Marcus is soooo cute. I'd call him a sable. There was a third point. Oh yeah! I want to try some Marcus Antonius Ale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Dracina your pup is a sable - the lovely all over version. What a heart throb of a pup! LBP - I don't know cat color genes, so i can't answer that part. Sable is all over, you just have more black or more yellow depend on the role of the genetic dice. White covers all color - so that answer thats. Then you have another pattern - the blue mottling (which may be roaning in horses - I dunno...this is a thought provoking discussion) - on top of that. The rat breeder/Border Collie owner that I was referencing look at you Stella's pics and though she was a slate blue (dilute) sable merle. How's that to throw a wrench in our ideas? I think she's wrong on the merle, which would make her a slate blue sable roan, but if you didn't know her parantage I suppose you could think that. Has anyone's head exploded yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dracina Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Has anyone's head exploded yet? Lenajo, I previously admired you for your humor and your forthright -ittude. Now I see that you are also a genetics expert? That is too much! I love a these threads that require intelligence!! Maybe you can help me out, because I think that Melanie just called my dog a "smutty horse" . On topic, though, I also have a hard time understanding that Stella is a sable (unless I am missing something). Karrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoga Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Has anyone's head exploded yet? OK, so what color would you guys call this dog (Calli's sire)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 OK, so what color would you guys call this dog (Calli's sire)? Saddleback sable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Not me...what I know about genetics I could put on the head of a pin. Color is just one of the easier topics and it's confusing enough. Working genes...now that's something I'd love to see figured out. Sable is a base color. The agouti gene is the base color of all canids - it's the black and yellow banding of the hair. Over that you put white and other color variations - like roan, merle, ticking. Lenajo, I previously admired you for your humor and your forthright -ittude. Now I see that you are also a genetics expert? That is too much! I love a these threads that require intelligence!! Maybe you can help me out, because I think that Melanie just called my dog a "smutty horse" . On topic, though, I also have a hard time understanding that Stella is a sable (unless I am missing something). Karrin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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