Jodi Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Does anyone have the emoticon banging their head on the brick wall? I am not sure why ... but I've gotten myself in a "lovely conversation" with the people on the AKC Yahoo Group. I've been informed that the split is between the people ... not the dogs. Oh, and function follows form. "Dual Champion" "Award of Excellence" "Award of Merit" "Versatility Title" I give. My gag reflex can't stands no mo'. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 At least you tried! Here's a kudo. Good girl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Here Jodi, I think you can copy and save the item from this post. If not I'll send the original to you. Actually, I'll go on an email you the original and you can upload it to Photobucket or whatever you use and it will be yours forever! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Jodi - you will appreciate this... a few comments from the AKC "dark side" were made to me over the past few years that stuck firmly in my head...convinced me that those people were truly out in left field about what a Border Collie was and should be...mind you, all these comments were made with "good intentions", and I think the people are genuinely nice, but SO ill informed. This is why I see the AKC BC's becoming their own breed - AKC breeders may "talk about" versatility and herding ability - but they really want pretty/fluffy, laid back/dull because that is what they can sell. They want, as someone here said, "Golden Retrievers in formal attire". These comments are paraphrased... Comment #1 - Wow, Pod is gorgeous for a... "farm collie"... I bet she could easily finish her Championship with a pro handler, but too bad about her ear. (She has one that pricks up and one that sticks out...) Comment #2 - I used to breed my bitches to working lines to try to keep the herding instinct alive, but had trouble selling the pups. They were too intense adn quirky for my buyers. Now I stick to straight conformation lines because people want a laid back dog (I read this as dull/stupid) in the house. Comment #3(I've heard this from agility and conformation people )- The problem with most herding breeders is they don't pay any attention to "structure" or clearances! The Dogs are all put together so badly and unsound. (OK so, yes, I've seen some pretty funny looking herding dogs, but what ever happened to form follows function?) Where's that "headbanger"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Old Hemp ... Herdman's Tommy ... USBCHA/ABCA is just another venue for having fun, just like the AKC ... Thanks Julie! Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Laurie - Oh yeah, the ears. Your poor poor dog. I popped on to one of the websites of the people I was "chatting" with, and found a page -- with photos and step-by-step instructions -- on how to properly set puppy ears. It is truly a whole different world. I don't understand how they can quote these great late dogs, and not see the difference in what they have turned it into today. It seems so basic, so obvious ... to me. And they truly don't see it. Blows me away. I've run in AKC trials. I've seen the dogs that compete in them. Sure, there are a few people who have some nice dogs from good working lines that play there ... but they certainly don't put any weight into their accomplishments like the conformation crowd does. In standing around listening, you hear people talking about how "We've tried several times to get his HT, and if I could just get it, he would be eligible for his versatility award!" Tried several times? Tried to do what? Get him to chase sheep long enough for the judge to say he's interested? Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Originally posted by Jodi:Get him to chase sheep long enough for the judge to say he's interested? Jodi Jodi, you're hilarious! Over the years, I've seen a lot of people on "our side" turn to the AKC as a way to make money. They get that herding title on their dog(s) and then they can start judging AKC herding trials. They can teach lessons to AKC herding people. They can do AKC herding instinct testing, sell puppies off their "AKC Herding Champion" to more AKC people for double the amount of money we working people sell our pups for. And if they have a few acres and some sheep, they can also make more money hosting AKC trials (which I hear the entry fees are astronomical?). Whatever floats their boat... I'll stay poor with my true working Border Collies! On the flip side, even though we may not agree with the "other side", most of them do love and care for their dogs just like we do and they are providing their dogs with an activity that is beneficial for their mental and physical well being... although, I can't see how parading those GRIT's (Golden Retreivers in Tuxedo's) around a show ring on a string is very beneficial for much of anything. For the most part, though, they have good homes and have some form of "work" outlet. It's the dogs that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Herdman's Tommy? They are claiming HIM as a standard? Get out . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:[QB] Herdman's Tommy? They are claiming HIM as a standard? Get out . . . Maybe they just liked the longer name...and he is pretty "fluffy". I certainly can't see how that dog could herd, though - he has no neck! (gag, cough, hack...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodi Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 I posted a long message, and in it, I wrote: "the day that I see CH Bigboned Fluffybutt PT win the USBCHA National Finals, I'll gladly eat every one of my words." A response was posted that asked if I was suggesting that we cull the big-boned fluffy-butts - and mentioned that would include Herdman's Tommy's lines because Sheila Grew describes him in "Key Dogs" as being a rough coated dog that tended to be larger, with big, blocky head and much more white trim - collar, chest, foreleg, etc. Yeah. "CH Bigboned Fluffybutt PT." That's exactly how I would describe Tommy. Wouldn't you? And, Christine, I absolutely agree. It's great that the dogs have great homes with owners that dote on them and have them doing 20 different activities. I just wish they would leave the breeding to the people that prove the working ability of their dogs to a very high standard, and not have it be judged by what titles the AKC offers. And what's really sad is most of them think there's not much difference between an AKC trial and a USBCHA trial. Jodi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Originally posted by Jodi:I just wish they would leave the breeding to the people that prove the working ability of their dogs to a very high standard, and not have it be judged by what titles the AKC offers. Great post, Jodi! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 And what's really sad is most of them think there's not much difference between an AKC trial and a USBCHA trial.I think it's even more telling that conformation folks will brag on a show champion dog as having proven itself by having "herding titles" - and they are talking about an instinct test! I had a stray beagle here that could pass one of those in a heartbeat, and he had more interest and style on stock than a lot of "fluffy butts" ever have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Herdman's Tommy lines are exactly what THEY cull OUT when they cull against the long, lean, wolfish looking dogs that dot our lines (at least I believe so). Tommy's genes have been carried down through the ages in dogs that work smart, hate interference, but mesh well with biddable stylish bitches. The problem the conformation people overlook is that by narrowing the gene pool to dogs that look a certain way, what kind of working genetics are they throwing out? It is the inclusion of a wide variety of dogs that has ensured that OUR lines almost certainly do include the genetics of these foundation dogs: Hemp, Tommy, the spaniel-eared, all-black Don, the brilliant smooth coated Loos of the jaunty unmatched ears. I spent a bit of time on that list about a year ago and it was very enlightening. That was when I realized that they didn't want our dogs because they thought our dogs were better in any way. They want our dogs because they want the entire breed to be formed under their paradigm of conformation first. They don't care whether a conformation champion ever wins our quaint little herding championship. However, they would consider themselves much closer to the goal if WE started competing in the breed ring, using THEIR measure to evaluate OUR dogs in addition to anything else we did. That's one reason the ABCA conformation championship ban was such an important step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueyedmule Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 I wonder. ...I wonder if Borders are someday headed for the same kind of split you see in Greyhounds--trackdog bloodlines vs. showdog lines, or Quarter Horses, same deal. Herding/cutting horses vs. racing lines, also strictly show lines. No cowboy in need of a good all'round horse will pay good money for a racehorse line or show line. Makes no sense to him, he needs a compact, powerful pony with a headful of cow-sense and plenty of moxy to mix it up day in, day out. Spirit tempered by savvy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 We got an English Pointer to pass a HT. Pod is LOVELY! What is wrong with them! Gosh, they would hate my dogs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Skeeter would probably pass an HT. Not only is he not a Border Collie, he is of a breed that was selected specifically to be ornamental and useless. Hey, maybe it IS impossible to breed the working ability out of them! Not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 3, 2006 Report Share Posted March 3, 2006 Zhi would pass too, for sure. She'll run circles around a flock (look! we're gathering!) and even does something that sort of looks like a sort of outrun/lift/fetch. Thing. Deal. My Finnish spitz mix can actually move the flock around a bit fairly respectably. My sheep are now reasonably good team players and if a dog doesn't totally harrass them they'll go through the motions. The stickler comes when you try to make even the slightest suggestion of interfering, or if the sheep decide they have better things to do than play "the herding game". Zhi won't hold pressure at all, and Maggie quits at the least sign that I might make her Do Something Useful. I think that a lot of people don't understand that livestock working behaviors aren't something that happens by magic because a kennel club assigned the breed to the Herding Group. Those behaviors were refined ages ago from the same general instincts that make Zhi and Maggie want to play with sheep a little. Then people took those dogs and refined the genetics even more to suit specific needs. Finally, the Border collie was shaped through the influence of a single standard of work. As Denise (I think) said so well earlier, to continue the trend of refinement takes active selection in EACH generation. Even simple maintanence requires very regular referral to the standard. Otherwise the "package" will disperse and you'll end up with a population similiar to the one Border collies were gleaned from - where some dogs will circle but not hold pressure, some will lock on but not flank off the pressure, some will not have the biddibility to be trained, some will be too soft, and some will have no interest at all - but almost no single dog will have enough traits all together, to show even a minimum amount of competancy on an Open trial course. In 1965, spectators at the Interational watched in amazement as an 18 month old dog swung out on a perfect, efficient outrun, reaching the top without a single command. With one command, he lifted the sheep quietly but firmly and brought them straight as an arrow to his handler, with only a few slight corrections. That was Wiston Cap. Notice the year. In 1965, the notable things about Cap were things we very much take for granted today. He was line bred to a dog that was himself a ground breaker in the 1930s for a high degree of naturalness and trustworthiness behind the stock. It took thirty years of careful breeding, after the first ISDS trial, to reach that point, and then thirty more years to achieve Wiston Cap's peerless balance of abilities, and then thirty more years until now we EXPECT a silent outrun, minimal assistance on the fetch, and a good ability to read pressure and hold a line - not to mention trainability, adaptability to pressure, and physical soundness. Lots of little pieces that have to be considered in every breeding, or they will drop into the background one by one, only appearing randomly in the future generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest destructo Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 I'm just curious, who tall are your dogs at the shoulder? I have been looking for a BC puppy and my current smallest bitch is 20 inches at the shoulder and the male we had for 14 years before that was at least 4 if not 6-8 inches taller at the shoulder... And the "breed standard" has our male several inches above the standard.... and even the breeder we got him from has downsized her dogs considerably. Does anyone breed a BC that isn't a shrimp any more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miztiki Posted March 9, 2006 Report Share Posted March 9, 2006 The people on this forum who breed their dogs do so for working ability and that's it. They don't care what the dog looks like or how big it is, as long as it's physically healthy, mentally stable, and can work like there's no tomorrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 My male is 22 or 23. My bitch is 21. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 I have a male that stands almost 23" and a female that is just shy of 16" tall. My other dogs are everything in between. There's no size standard for a Border collie, other than that the legs need to be long enough to reach the ground and the dog needs to be nimble enough to head off fleeing sheep in a 20 to 100 acre field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 My male is almost 50 pounds and just under 23" at the shoulder. He is one of the larger Border Collies I've seen, but I've seen bigger than him. I think some trainers or handlers have their preferences about size (my mentor preferred a smaller, more nimble dog) but there is no size standard for working Border Collies. My bitch is probably closer to 20" (she never stands up straight so she's hard to measure) and just under 40 pounds and I consider her average size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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