Getting it

[Howdyjabo]

I have wondered for years why some people "get it" when it comes to understanding the Border Collie and others work with them for years and never "get it"

 

At one time I thought the answer was that people needed to really need them for livestock work-- above and beyond trialing.

But I can think of several people who do need them-and still don't "get it"

Then I have seen those that don't really need them for livestock work and they still "get it".

 

I think my dim brain finally figured it out. The people that "get it" value the breeds history above and beyond what they are doing with the individual dogs.

The Border Collies History is its future-- if you don't value the history how can you ever put its future or what you are doing with individual dogs in proper pperspective.

 

I still think education of what is good for the breed is citical. But maybe we need to be doing more to educate and stress the history of the breed???? open peoples minds to why things are good for the breed.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, I think knowlege of history has a whole lot to do with it. One of the first things you see when a breed is absorbed by the AKC, is that they start mucking about with its history. They seem to do this to explain the useless physical extremes that are rewarded in the breed ring.

 

I've already heard remarkable fairy tales to explain the favored look of a breed Border collie. The ones that are big-coated and heavier boned come from lines that are "lowland type" or "Northumberland type." Piffle. They look that way because judges like heavier bone in dogs that tend that way and full, dripping coat in dogs that are coated. The breed lines go back in large part to a Dales line that was very popular in the years right before the Border collie became a breed competitor in Oz.

 

What I desperately hope is that we don't find ourselves in the same situation as the sheltie people, who now have to explain the huge dearth of working ability in their breed by saying, well, this was never a working breed at all.

 

Or the rough collie people - they are in worse shape because it's pretty clear that collies were useful farm dogs once. And it's pretty easy to look back at the documentation and figure out that Border collies and rough collies come from the same stock. What do they say? They claim there IS no documentation - go to a breed site and they all have the same party line: "The origins of this breed are lost in the mists of time." Mists of time my Aunt Matilda! The mid-1800s were not that long ago and they had these things called cameras, books, and newspapers. It's odd that we know so much about the working heritage of OUR breed, which was much more obscure, and their heritage is "lost."

 

Well, who let the history nut in here, anyway? I'll stop rambling now, only to say, Karen is right - we need to do more to celebrate the way the Border collie was set apart from generic sheepdogs by the original developers of the breed.

[juliepoudrier]

I think I would add to what Rebecca wrote to say that it's not only a knowledge of the history that's important but also respect for that history. Over and over we hear the argument (paraphrased here) "things change, get used to it." I think such an argument shows and incredible amount of short sightedness.

 

Unfortunately, I think the almighty dollar has a lot to do with folks not "getting it."

 

J.

[J.E.S]

I wish all Border collie owners would watch the video "The year of the working sheepdog" If they had any doubts as to the necessary working abilities of these dogs that film would dispell them. The film is set in North Devon and shows a year in the life of the shepherd and his dogs working his 850+ flock of sheep. Some of the flock is grazed on the rugged coasline and the dogs have to do some very precise work to not push sheep off the cliffs, or fall off themselves. I have bought David Kennard's book "A Shepherd's Watch" also and I find it informative and entertaining.

I dare anyone to watch this video and not come away with a new respect for the work these dogs can do and how important it is to only breed for working ability to retain the true Working Border Collie.

Oh, and I am not getting paid for this promotion, I just love the video and am really enjoying the book.

[sea4th]

I wish all Border collie owners would watch the video "The year of the working sheepdog" If they had any doubts as to the necessary working abilities of these dogs that film would dispell them

Au contraire! I've seen and heard the show folks claim that their dogs can do it if they had to. One decided to put her money where her mouth was and prove us all wrong and showed up at a mini clinic. After having sat there for most of the afternoon, watching everyone else have their turn, she left with her Ch. Barbie collie with the lament that she didn't like the way the clinician treated dogs. Not too long afterwards, you would see her around with more moderate, normal looking bc's. This was a hardnosed crusty old broad who made her name in the conformation world with other breeds. She, at least was smart enough to see that what she learned over the years, didn't necessarily apply to bc's.

 

The rest--well, maybe no matter what, choose not to see and delude themselves that those dogs working along side shepherds that you see on these tapes are no different than their Barbie collies. It makes life easier I guess when you choose not to be confronted with facts.

[Miztiki]

Put a challenge out to the "can do it all" people. See if any one of them with a third generation Barbie Collie can get their dog to herd up to a certain level (whatever level your average real working BC can attain) within a reasonable time frame.

 

Then tell them that if they can get their Barbie Collie to do it, I'll eat my hat! And if they can't, it just proves what we've been saying all along.

 

[i'm a newbie and don't know how many generations of Barbie's it would take, or what the levels are, or what a reasonable time period is, but you get the point. ]

[Miztiki]

p.s. Have a link for that video? Sounds interesting.

[juliepoudrier]

Miz,

You can probably get the video at Border Collies in action: http://www.bordercollies.com

 

J.

[Howdyjabo]

Hey Tiki--

Its not just AKC that doesn't "get it"

Trials are full of them- and some of them are doing quite well under certain circumstances.

[Miztiki]

What do you mean?

 

Thanks for the link Julie, buying it now.

[Howdyjabo]

Lots of people trial with robot dogs-- and think thats what the breed is about.

[Lunar]

It makes life easier I guess when you choose not to be confronted with facts.

Unfortunately that particular problem is not limited to border collie abilities. I'll never understand when otherwise intelligent people refuse to listen to fact because they just don't want to.

 

That is aweful, about the Shelties and Collies. I guess the people who don't 'get it' don't get the connection there, either.

[Miztiki]

Robot dogs... You mean like if I had brought Boy back to the sheep trainers for lessons, despite his having no natural ability, and simply trained him (obedience style) to do the job, micromanaging his every step?

 

Or can their dogs get the job done without telling them what to do each step of the way?

 

Third generation Barbie's can herd, even as robots? I didn't know.

[Howdyjabo]

Worse-- they'll take dogs with talent. Interfere till the dog gives up and just lets them play billards with it. Never realizing what they have truely given up- with their enthusiasm for what they can still make the dog do.

 

And theres the robot dogs with limited natural talent that with extensive training and handling can still trial.

 

Envision a hard working livestock person with little spare time. Can you see either senerio being useful? And something they would actually bother to do?

Thats why we need to look back to the history- to keep the future focused.

Doesn't matter that it can be done--- would it have been done?

[Howdyjabo]

There is a need for the dogs to maintain at the very least the chase instinct.

Barbie Collies may still have that or even lots more.

 

But again why bother? Would livestock men and women have bothered with a dog that limited in scope?

Nope - so why should it be done now.

[Pipedream Farm]

Miztiki,

 

There are dogs you can take out and send for the sheep knowing that they will come up behind the sheep, check their pace, lift the sheep quietly, hold the line on the fetch, and check their pace as needed to keep the sheep at a nice trot all the way to your feet without you ever saying anything to them. They don't start that way (due to young dog enthusiasm) but with training and experience become this.

 

There are dogs that you can start them driving sheep in a direction and they will hold the sheep on that line on their own with nice pace, until you change the drive direction.

 

They are a joy to watch and even better to run.

 

I was setting sheep with Peg for some people working/training their dogs. Peg learned the routine such that I could send her for the sheep and she would walk them right back to my feet. Just before they got to my feet I would step off to one side and Peg would flank off to the other side stopping the sheep between us. After the first time or two I no longer had to say anything to her except to send her.

 

Mark

[Dave Apker]

Ms Shouse stated

 

"Or the rough collie people - they are in worse shape because it's pretty clear that collies were useful farm dogs once. And it's pretty easy to look back at the documentation and figure out that Border collies and rough collies come from the same stock. What do they say? They claim there IS no documentation - go to a breed site and they all have the same party line: "The origins of this breed are lost in the mists of time." Mists of time my Aunt Matilda! The mid-1800s were not that long ago and they had these things called cameras, books, and newspapers. It's odd that we know so much about the working heritage of OUR breed, which was much more obscure, and their heritage is "lost."

 

And Natalie said

"That is aweful, about the Shelties and Collies. I guess the people who don't 'get it' don't get the connection there, either."

 

Out of lurk mode since I read this board for training tips and hints for my rough collies.

Excuse me rough and smooth collies were useful farm dogs once Right! Suggest you read a little more about that long nose collie and its history. Many still are useful on the farm. It depends on the lines. Some of the collie lines are useless for working ability. Same is true with Shelties. Yeah both breeds have more than their share of beauty pageant dogs that are worthless on the farm. I had to do a lot of research to find a rough or smooth collie pup out of working lines that had potential to be successful in AHBA, ISDS trial and AKC trials especially B course. I found her. She is out of Nirvanna and her breeder is Sherry Moss. Back a few years ago Kate's aunt I believe placed in the top ten at the Bluegrass in Novice/Novice with Ms Moss as her handler. Her uncle Sean finished his and I apologize for using a bad word his AKC herding championship on the AKC B course. One of the few upright breeds to do so. My breeder's collie to include Kate's mom and dad do farm work everyday just like my herding instructor Wink Mason's BCs. My rescue Duncan with a little more experience on my part can do farm work too. I was impressed with Sherry's collies jaw dropping impressed with their abilities to do farm work since I had only ever seen BCs work this well. There rough and smooth collies in Colorado, California, Connecticut, VA and NC that I personally know of who do farm work everyday.

 

Rough and smooth collies are not totally inept when it comes to working ability and desire. My 4.5mo pup Kate has demonstrated a lot more drive and working ability on a few occasions than the the BC pups we have seen working at my herding instructor's place. These BC pups are 5 weeks older than Kate.

 

BCs and collies share a common history. Collie Club of America is the second oldest breed club

in the AKC. My personal view is that if you want that AKC CH in front your herding dogs name the dog needs to earn the championship in both herding and in conformation. This view is incredibly popular in collie circles. I value a collies ability to work over beauty. And I wont say anything bad about CCA for fears of excommunication and a preference to work from within conducting a long guerilla war to change the hearts and minds of collie owners. I hate what the AKC has done to herding dogs. But if you dont fight the power it corrupts aboslutely.

 

Thanks for the chance to give my two cents and clarify a few things. Back to lurk mode.

[Miztiki]

Welcome to the BC Boards!

 

Why are your feathers ruffled? Isn't it true that Collies are not generally used for working stock anymore? Isn't it also true that few have any natural ability left in them? I think that's what was said.

 

I doubt Rebecca was trying to offend you in any way. There's no need for the catty reply, is there?

 

I know next to nothing about working dogs. How much of an accomplishment is placing in the top ten in novice/novice? Or an AKC B course? What all does that involve (what do the dogs have to do)?

 

Also, does anyone here on the Boards who work their dogs have letters in front of their names? I have seen letters in front of dog's names on other sites, but I don't recall people here having letters before their dog's names. Is there a way of knowing what level your dog is at?

[Miztiki]

Mark, I would love to watch you with Peg. I'd love to someday be able to have someone explain to me everything about herding, all the nuances, etc. Thanks for your post.

[Maralynn]

Dave, first you said-

 

Excuse me rough and smooth collies were useful farm dogs once Right! Suggest you read a little more about that long nose collie and its history. Many still are useful on the farm. It depends on the lines. Some of the collie lines are useless for working ability.

and then you said-

I had to do a lot of research to find a rough or smooth collie pup out of working lines that had potential to be successful in AHBA, ISDS trial and AKC trials especially B course. I found her.

Yes, but collies who can work are the exception now, not the rule. As you found out. I dare say it would be much easier to find a BC with herding potential.

 

The goal that the working BC community has is to have dogs capable of herding on a high level as the rule, not the exception.

[juliepoudrier]

Dave,

I know you mean well and are trying to work from within your breed community to promote working ability in collies, but I do take exception with anyone claiming a win in novice-novice (even at the Bluegrass) is a high accomplishment. It's simply not. The novice classes were created to be stepping stones to open, not as ends in themselves (although they have become that in some cases).

 

I don't think its wrong to state that herding breeds that have been bred for conformation purposes have lost a large part of their original working abilities. That's not your fault, nor is it the fault of anyone else who happens to have a favorite breed that has been bred for conformation for a long time (unless, of course, they are buying into the breed for beauty without concern for ability mindset). It's wonderful that at least some people within the AKC are trying to move their breeds back toward their original working purpose, but wouldn't it be nicer if you didn't have to do that in the first place? That is, if the dogs hadn't had working ability suborned to beauty pageantry in the first place, you wouldn't be working hard to find working dogs within the breed now. Please understand that those of us with working bred border collies are trying to prevent the same thing from happening in our breed, athough it is already happening with the show bred border collies.

 

I won't comment on your comparison of your collie puppy with the border collie pups since I haven't seen any of them work but do know the people and dogs involved. But it seems with those comments that you are falling back into the usual arguments that people with other breeds make about how their dogs are as good as or better than border collies you've met. The proof will be a couple of years from now when your pup and those other pups are competing at USBCHA trials at something other than the novice-novice level.

 

I hope you don't take offense at what I've said here. You've met me and know that I support folks working with their breed of choice and going as far as they can. I don't think you'd call me a border collie snob.

 

Edited to add: Maralynn said it much more succinctly than I did!

 

Oh, and Karen, don't despair--there are still plenty of us out there who actively seek natural working dogs who don't have to be commanded every step of the way. The last thing I want to have to do at home is send my dog for stock and then command it every step of the way till the animals are at my feet. I may not win as many trials as other folk, but I regularly get comments on silent gathers, so people still DO notice and appreciate a dog's ability to do that.

 

J.

[Debbie Crowder-BaaramuLuke]

Mark,

And all...one of the reasons I like to do what I do is that I am truly a Border Collie fanatic, except that the first half of my life was spent being fanatical about horses. Add to that I earn my living in a pet industry vocation, and I am all animaled up. Point only being that I don't put as much into my sheep work as I could if I wasn't so spread out, but I do admire and respect instinct in any animal.

What you describe is pure instinct, bred by people who wanted to be able to concentrate on their work without having to worry about giving the dog directives every second. Good trainers can get the moves right with a biddable dog and lots of work. The good dogs just do it because they're watching the stock, watching us and anticipating what needs to be done. That's the dog I want, that's the dog I admire, the one that tries so hard to get the job done for us. What a blessing that they have so much desire to do it all day long, in rough weather, when tired or hungry, maybe hurting (they cover for it so well).

Last weekend, I told Sharon Nunan (we were working together at the trial set out, by the way, we're for hire if anybody wants us as a team!) I had chilly bumps watching my youngish dog Simon cover newly released sheep, trying to go back to the pen, not a word from me (for once), his eye shifting from one to the next, slightly moving his balance just a hair this way and that til they got their heads back to thinking and not reacting, and only then did he slowly walk them up the 50 feet to where Sharon's dog (under the chairs) would step in and take them to her, not a word from her (as usual, she's good), and they quietly walked to the set out.

Now, I have two sheep at home, barely train, just do this a couple times a month and he's 4 now, and hardly knows anything but pen work, but if I had a lesser dog, would I be able to pull that off?

We need to be very very careful about the breed's future.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Hi Dave,

 

I've semi-lurked on another list for a while and have admired your efforts to work with the breed you love and hold it to a higher standard. However, you've misunderstood what I was saying about the collies (and shelties, to an even greater extent). I should have said these breeds were consistently useful farm dogs once. Meaning they as a breed are no longer reliable producers of useful dogs.

 

We may have a crossed signal on what my standard of "useful farm dog" is, and what yours is. I have in mind dogs that do things humans can't, that work without commands, that are adaptable to anything a livestock producing season can throw at it, dogs that a livestock manager can trust to meet almost any challenge livestock can raise.

 

Collies and Border collies seperated AFTER the advent of trial competitions. Genetically, there wouldn't be any reason Duncan can't run the full course at the USBCHA National Finals. His ancestors worked to very similiar levels. Except that the "bench breed" as it used to be called began to be selected for looks rather than strictly working ability. And very quickly the strain was selected strictly for looks! With the obvious result that today one has to turn over a rock or two to find a dog with "potential to be successful in AHBA, ISDS trial and AKC trials especially B course."

 

As you know there's a very talented person running a Sheltie in USBCHA Open - and won an unjudged time and points arena trial. And as I said I'm pleased you are working with the rough collies. I have a friend with some very talented collies who comes and works here. Unlike many people, I think it's possibly not too late for these breeds IF major encouragement is given to promote a true working standard (AKC courses are too vague and AHBA is deliberately not set up to foster a competitive environment).

 

And people with these breeds would have to allow form to actually follow function, rather than trying to enforce form with arbitrary standards - thereby limiting any influence the working standard would have on the breed. It's a hard row to hoe - I know people who are trying to do it within their breeds and they are subject to a lot of flack and pressure to bow to the AKC gold standard that function follows form.

 

So I'm the last person to knock the potential of breeds other than Border collies. What I'm talking about, Dave, is the tendency of breed people to make excuses for the lowered expectations we have today of the working ability of AKC breeds. Instead of admitting their mistakes and working from there (if they care at all), they say, well, you cannot expect this breed to work like a Border collie because [insert rewritten history here]. "oh, our dogs were 'all purpose' pen/yard dogs," or "our dogs weren't more than barnyard guardians" or even, "our dogs have been ornamental from their inception."

 

The thing is, that the work that needs to be done with livestock has changed very little down the ages. The Border collies were refined as the result of a need to manage large commercial wool flocks cheaply. But the small farmers still needed dogs to do what they'd always done. And they couldn't afford to raise, train, and keep multiple types of dogs for every discrete task (though some might have). Every farm dog, for as long as there have been singleholding farms, has had to be an "all-purpose dog." The needs didn't change, the dogs did. As it got easier to find good Border collies and harder to find the traditional local breeds (the gene pool being watered down with show lines), most farmers switched to Border collies. This state of affairs progressed so quickly that by 1927, an exhibition at the English Nationals of the native working breed, was requested by the Old English Sheepdog Society. Thirteen dogs indicated interest in competing of which one, a female named Petsoe Queen, showed up. She was asked to do a simple gather at 300 yards and pen; however, she unfortunately preferred to visit with the spectators and refused to help her handler pen the sheep, which meanwhile had ambled down the course most cooperatively. This demonstration apparently solidified the growing notion that if one couldn't have a Border collie, it was better to have no dog at all. (E.B. Carpenter. Blue Riband of the Heather. Farming Press, UK: 1989. pg 3)

 

I laud you in your efforts, Dave, and hope to see you around soon and talk more about your journey.

[sea4th]

Kinda sorry that there's been no more response to all of your -- as usual --- dead on replies. Too bad.