Denise Wall Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 The whole prey drive thing from the other thread got me wondering if seeing isn't believing for some of the more visually oriented folks in this conformation/working dog breeding debate. I'm not sure I can demonstrate this through these pictures, but here's a try: Below is a pic of Mick in a confrontation trying to move a ewe who has just lambed. While Mick is perfectly capable of being as aggressive as he needs to be in order to get a job done, in this instance he was able to communicate his message effectively without aggression. This was taken the moment before she gives up and turns. Note his posture and the determination in his stance: In contrast, here is a pic of the same dog moving a newly born lamb that has gotten separated from its mom. Note here the difference in posture and attitude from the previous picture. He's actually gently nudging it along: This difference in attitude and feel in the different situations and types of sheep is the polar opposite of what would be occurring if Mick were only demonstrating "prey drive." Prey drive would be manifested by him wanting to catch and kill, or at least be aggressive toward the smallest or weakest of the prey -- the lamb. Prey drive would not manifest itself by him wanting to take on the biggest, most aggressive, most difficult prey -- the protective ewe. Below is pic where both the ewe and lamb are in the picture. Kate is turning an aggressive ewe with a newborn lamb. Kate has just tipped the scale and won the battle here. The ewe was stamping and jumping up and down but Kate walked on with confidence and moved her. Notice where Kate is focusing her attention. Again the opposite of "prey drive," she is focusing on the sheep she needs to control to get the job done, not the easy one to catch and eat. There is a lot going on here that we can't see. What we see is only the tip of the iceberg of the depth of communication going on between these dogs and sheep. While prey/predator relationships might have been the origin of this ability to read or feel each other on the part of these dogs and sheep, it is not "prey drive" at work when a good sheepdog reads the situation and stock properly and gets a job done. I challenge anyone who thinks they can train this sort of natural inbred ability into a dog who doesn't have it. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Denise, Hey, I finally get it. Mark BTW Great photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 and by contrast, here's my BC mix, with very strong prey drive, chasing game: I wouldn't dare let her in with sheep! -Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Mark, I wasn't worried about you getting it I took all these pics with my little Nikon CP5700 before I got my big, heavy, Canon 10D DSLR. Back then I had that 5700 with me everywhere I went. Whenever I saw something interesting, I took a picture. Now, although the camera and pictures I do take are probably better, I don't take nearly the number of pictures that I used to. Oh well. I hope other people will post some pics if they have any, and explain what they think is going on between the stock and the dog. Or just some pics of dogs working stock with no explanation. Any takers? Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 there's a reason sighthounds, what I consider the ultimate prey drive dog, look like this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 I have a few working pics but no website to post to. We're still in the analog age. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Mark, try www.photobucket.com you can create a free account and link to all the pics you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Thanks, I'll look into it after this weekend. We're off to Gordonsville, VA. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 OK I couldn't wait. Sorry no livestock (in view) in this one and not my best work. Hard to work the dog and a borrowed digital camera at the same time. I've got a long way to reach Denise's quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Thanks, Laura. Good job. I would like to point out that in the the two pics I where I show the dogs in confrontation with the ewes, if the dogs had looked to me to tell them what to do, or diverted their attention to acknowledge a noise from a clicker, they probably would've gotten the snot butted out of them. Also, back to prey drive - prey fear their predator. They don't respect it. Good stockwork should generate respect from both parties for each other (you should also be included in a triangle of respect). Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Good job Mark. The look in his eyes is perfect - very workmanlike attitude. Can you tell I love pictures!! Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border_collie_crazy Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 ok so she was "working" an evil rabbit lol but its a very nice picture non the less! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Clark is a young dog who has trialed a few times at a Novice level. Craig trials at a Pro-Novice level OK, here's a merle. Kyu is from working lines (not an AKC dog) and won his first trial (Novice) Now here's Bear his first time out (at the age of 5). Sadly, there are no pics of Wicked herding because, well, she doesn't herd. At all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuck's BCBuddy Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Super thread, with some super pics. So often we see pics of the various dogs, but to see your dogs in action, doing their thing, along with the explanations of what is going on, is just awesome. Sorry I can't actively contribute, but keep it going yall, very educational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike's Bitch Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 What he said. I always read all the herding stuff - even though I doubt Spike or I will ever do it, it's fascinating to learn as much as I can. Interestingly, the way Mick is looking at his sheep is exactly how Spike looks at his cat. Liz & Spike xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Sorry, thought I'd better resize. This is Joe from a couple of years ago: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackacre Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 . . . and Hobbes, same era: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Denise, those are fabulous pictures to illustrate your point about prey drive. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuck's BCBuddy Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Is it me, or in blackacre's second pic of Joe, does it look like all the sheep are huddling around the one directly facing the camera? If so, is it just coincidence that it looks that way, or is there something to that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreo's mom Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 I, too, love these pictures with the working dogs. Maybe we could have a gallery of pictures along the lines of the People's Border Collies for similar pictures, posted in its own location with the sheepdog training and trialing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Wall Posted July 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Thanks to everyone posting pics and replying! Here's a funny one I forgot, "Kiss me Kate." Baffled - yes, expressing prey drive - no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Here's some silly "prey drive". Here's the same dog on her stock, several months later. Hubby's dog: My dog as a pup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oreo's mom Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 C Denise, that is the sweetest picture! I just looked at your website. The picture titled "Rob's true colors" would be a great one to post on the thread about border collies and babies ("Looking for someone who...") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 By the way Denise, your sheep are gorgeous! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Dog Posted July 9, 2004 Report Share Posted July 9, 2004 Awsome pics. But sorry, I don't buy the premise. Look at studies of predatory behavior development in canines that hunt in groups (wolves, African wild dogs, sometimes coyotes). The urge to chase moving prey from behind kicks in first, then flanking to control the prey and finally biting/kill behaviors. Take out the biting/kill stage, and doesn't this sound like how a young dog develops stock sense? Plus if it isn't some sort of truncated predatory instinct that drives these dogs to control stock for hours on end, what is it? Are the dogs expressing some sort of care-giver behavior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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