Prey drive vs good livestock work

[Denise Wall]

Tony,

 

Look at studies of predatory behavior development in canines that hunt in groups (wolves, African wild dogs, sometimes coyotes).

 

I have.

 

The urge to chase moving prey from behind kicks in first, then flanking to control the prey and finally biting/kill behaviors. Take out the biting/kill stage, and doesn't this sound like how a young dog develops stock sense?

 

Sometimes but not always. Some pups want to control stock right off. Some pups never develop past wanting to chase and or kill stock. If you look in the appendix section of Scott Lithgow's "Training and working dogs for quiet confident control of stock" (which you probably already have), there is a great explanation of the different levels of development and truncation of prey drive and how it applies to herding instinct.

 

Plus if it isn't some sort of truncated predatory instinct

 

This I think is the key - truncated. Instinct stemming from prey drive and prey drive are two different things. In one, these instincts help them to help you. In the other, they just want to kill something.

 

I never meant to imply all border collies are the same. Some border collies do exhibit true prey drive. And some people think that's the right way for them to act on stock. I don't. I don't consider good stock work having the stock scared to death all the time because the dog wants to kill them. Like they say, you can teach a chicken-killing dog not to kill chickens but you can't teach a chicken-killing dog to not to *want* to kill chickens. The stock will always know.

 

Denise

[blackacre]

Tucks Buddy,

In the second picture of Joe holding the sheep in the corner, he is well within their comfort zone and the sheep have no place to go. He's probably also prevented them from breaking away a couple of times before the shot was taken, so they are huddled around the leader, which is also the sheep that Joe is focussed on.

This picture of Joe shows how far off he needs to be to affect the sheep without disturbing them. You can see that they have just started to turn:

 

[Doug Boyder]

Had to dial in this morning for work and, as usual, got side-tracked...

 

BTW, this really is an excellent board. And I'm a sucker for photos too!

 

Here is a photo of my Cristal, who has become my "official chicken herder" - she moves the little buggers back into our chicken run (without biting them).

[SoloRiver]

Tony,

 

If you haven't read it already, you would greatly enjoy Coppinger's and Coppinger's Dogs (hardcover version has a Border Collie on the cover, softcover has a Maremma, I think). They discuss dog evolution, Border Collies, and prey drive at length. According to their thesis, many behaviors we find useful in working dogs (of all stripes -- not just herding dogs) trace back to predatory behaviors but through selection we've monkeyed around enough with the behavioral sequence to turn it into something else.

 

Here's Solo at work (I like to play with Photoshop, and this photo got mangled so I watercolorized it):

 

 

Solo is a relatively upright dog with medium eye who prefers to be pushy and work too close. When he is confident and relaxed he can work very well but falls apart under stress. He won't ever leave his sheep but he will buzz them and grip.

 

Here is Fly back in England before I got her:

 

 

Fly is ridiculously stylish and has a buttload of eye, sometimes a tad too much. She is extremely nice to her sheep and comes pretty close to having the "password" (i.e., "baa ram ewe") a lot of the time, but doesn't like to push hard on balky sheep. Fly has never lost her cool.

 

A good Border Collie has to have a good mind because her mind has to be able to handle stress. An inability to handle stress, like Solo has, is what seems to be a very common fault in dogs bred for show or sports -- the dogs either quit, or they go into ballistic, kill-the-sheep mode.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Here's a pictoral of the turn at the post. This is Rick's nursery qualifying run, still a pup.

 

 

For some reason now he works about three times that far off the sheep but then it would be hard to get it all in a photograph. I'll see what I can do tomorrow with a camera and a willing substitute for me as handler.

 

The things that impress me most about Rick, and other good dogs, and teach me every day about stock, are things it would be hard to capture pictorially. How does Rick know to turn his head when I would have thought additional pressure would get the job done, or what does he do to settle the sheep after they have been soured by guests who come and work - or, once, chased by coyotes? Making the sheep MORE comfortable, so necessary to working them, doesn't seem to me a logical extension of a purely defined concept of "prey instinct" or "drive". Then again, I haven't read Coppinger - should I?

[Denise Wall]

Nice pics, Becca,

 

By the way Denise, your sheep are gorgeous!

 

Thanks. The ones in the pictures here aren't very representative of my flock though. My flock is commercial whiteface cross wool ewes. A few are half Cheviot. In the spring, I pasture lamb and then bring them into the barn to put in lambing jugs after a couple of hours or so to bond in the field. The others, while good mothers, don't normally challenge the dogs much while being brought up. The cheviots seem to have much more protective instinct and are more aggressive toward the dogs, no matter how "right" the dogs are. They're are very hardy though so I'm trying to get at least a quarter percentage of cheviot in my flock.

[Denise Wall]

Thanks again to everyone replying and posting pictures, and especially to A for the explanation on hers.

 

Denise

[PennyT]

In the thread from which this one arose, I was not questioning or even

addressing the issue of whether the traits comprising livestock

working skills and keenness on livestock in dogs have evolved from hunting. I think they

may have. Actually, I also think innate pack nurturing behaviors may also

have a role to some extent. Nevertheless, that wasn't the point.

 

Some pups chase almost not at all and

turn into wonderful stock dogs. Some chase a lot and do the same.

 

The ones likeliest to keep on chasing and splitting and being unreliable are also likeliest to be those not bred for livestock work and trialing but who retain "a herding instinct."

 

The above is just one of the ways it is misleading to equate border collies bred for livestock work and

trialing with high prey drive and those border collies not from "trialing lines" but which retain "a herding instinct" with low prey drive.

 

Penny

[Tuck's BCBuddy]

Blackacre,

Thanks for the explanation. I thought I was sensing something in the pic, but obviously, do not have the experience to have put a finger on exactly what it was. So that definitely makes sense then, the flock has a leader, and logically then, the dog would focus on the leader. Get the leader to do what he wants, and the flock will follow, eh. Is that about right?

 

Gee, that wouldn't be that different from human beings then, would it? ROFL

[Denise Wall]

Upon giving Tony's question further reflection, I wanted to make my views on prey drive as it relates to stock work more clear. I confess what follows is something, in its entirety, that I have written on this subject previously so please excuse any repetition on my part from earlier posts:

 

Although portions of herding instinct originated from hunting

instinct, researchers such as Michael Fox have demonstrated that

domesticated breeds such as herding dogs have been selected for

truncated prey drive that stops before the kill bite (Fox M.W.,

1978. The Dog. Its domestication and behavior. New York and

London: Garland STPM Press). However, all dogs are predators under

the right circumstances, so they can still learn to hunt and kill

stock. Border collies may do so easier than other breeds because

they are naturally attracted to stock. This does not mean herding

ability is merely handler controlled hunting instinct. It has

components of prey drive, but it by no means only prey drive, and it

is by no means a simple collection of traits. Increased intensity

of parts of the truncated sequence of predation have been selected

for. For example, the desire to stop and control stock known

as "heading behavior" is modified and expanded from what would be a

weak, situational skill in most predators. The same is true of

driving skills. As well, it has been said that sheepdogs have an

extreme interest in stock when compared predators such as wolves. If

the prey are too difficult to catch, wolves will usually give up

easily and wait for easier prey whereas border collies will work

long and tirelessly, no matter how difficult the job. In nature,

keenness to pursue prey that is too difficult when easier prey could

be had would be selected against.

 

There are other differences in herding behavior and predatory

behavior that are on opposite ends of the spectrum. Border collies

must work to control and move stock. This involves identifying and

influencing the strong leaders, not the weak stragglers. In

contrast, predators try to find the weakest and most vulnerable of

the prey to pursue and capture. This behavior of only being

interested in controlling the strong leaders is so pronounced in

some border collies that they will ignore lambs and sick sheep

completely, as if they weren't even there. Even wild or unbroke

stock can identify and respond calmly but obediently to a determined

dog with the right work ethic. This response is nothing like the one

of terror the stock would have toward a predator. Dogs that upset

stock too much are not desirable, since this type of stress causes

weight loss and compromises the health of the stock, thus lowering

their value.

 

Working stock properly involves a highly refined relationship and

communication between the stock and the dog. What we see is only

the tip of the iceberg. Although eons of prey/predator interactions

have honed the senses involved in this relationship, the

relationship between the good sheepdog and its sheep is quite

different from one of a predator/prey relationship.

 

This type of highly evolved working ability cannot be trained in

those who do not have it. As I have said, many a well bred working

border collie pup can go out and gather unbroke stock even in large

areas and bring them to the owner quite naturally at a young age.

Training should merely be a refinement of what is already there from

good breeding.

 

Denise

[Erin Hischke]

Mick (at the top of this thread) looks like a wonderful dog! I love the photo with the lamb.

 

The way he is showing concern for the lamb makes me think he might qualify as an AWF.

 

Here's information on the American Working Farmcollie Association

 

http://www.geocities.com/farmcollie1

 

Erin

[Denise Wall]

The way he is showing concern for the lamb makes me think he might qualify as an AWF.

 

Well, he is "mismarked" It's nice to know there may be some recourse for him if AKC takes over the working border collie in this country.

 

Thanks for your nice comments

 

Denise

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

High praise indeed. My trainer says the good ones all have this concern for the young ones. It's a good reason the best dogs (that is, the best representatives of the working Border Collie breed) come from breeders who both trial and farm, preferably on a largish scale. Lambing brings out the best natural stock sense, if it's there. Things that are tested on the trial field are brought to the proof when the babies start hitting the ground and you're too busy to make sure the dog is right.

 

I have no pictures, but anticipating my dog Rick's first lambing was scary for me. When he was young he was, er, rather forceful when he didn't need to be. But when it came time to start moving lambs I found I had no need to fear. He had a fault in not realizing the mother should be moved slow enough not to leave the lamb behind (he knows this now), so he'd accidentally seperate them, then go back and bump the nutty little things in the right direction.

 

Now as I say he knows if he is patient the lambs will follow the mama. If the lambs insist on running in circles or away from mama, he'll use a quick flanking technique to enforce a non-confrontational boundary until mama finds her lambs.

 

I've found if I use Rick to move mamas and lambs to the mothering paddock, the mothering bond is stronger than if I try to lure the ewe with the newborn lambs. If Rick rattled them with a threatening prey-type stance, it would be difficult to settle them down into a family unit - he has to strike a balance between keeping the ewe moving out of respect, and letting her think about her lambs.

 

The most amazing thing is to see him move a ewe past her friends who haven't lambed yet (because of course they always lamb out in the opposite end of my property from the mothering pen). He must hold them off to keep his set separate and somehow he can switch gears between pushing off a large flock, and delicately maneuvering a mama and twins, with a flick of the eye. The first time it happened I had entirely forgotten about the other sheep, so he was the one who figured it out himself.

 

I'm sure all this is run-of-the-mill to you all who've been doing it for many years, but I insist on being amazed. The working Border Collie is a wonder that I just can't sit by and watch fade away.

[Bill Fosher]

Rebecca,

 

There's nothing run of the mill about it. That's a good dog.

 

I loaded a semi of sheep to go to a trial yesterday. When the trucker showed up fresh off of knee surgery, I could tell he was a little concerned that I was the only person around to load, because he couldn't help.

 

Tweed and I had the truck loaded in less than half an hour, and at the end, the driver said the dog was worth four men.

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Originally posted by Bill Fosher:

Tweed and I had the truck loaded in less than half an hour, and at the end, the driver said the dog was worth four men.

Dude,

That is a cool, cool story. I am jealous.

[G_Davis]

Great stuff!! I love seeing photos too. I wanted to add a few, but couldn't seem to make it work. Brain cramp. Go here if you'd like to view a couple:

 

http://webspace4me.net/~grd49/

 

First 3 photos from 14th time on stock, next 2 from 6th time on stock. Special thanks to Diane Pagel, Chris Soderstram, Lorri Ruddick and everyone in WA who gave us a chance to learn.

 

Couldn't resist adding the last 2 just for the puppy-to-young adult view. Kinda the same look.

 

Thank you Denise for expanding on your comments about prey drive, etc. When I see the dogs work, or see photos like yours and others, what strikes me is the additions and refinements (and I feel such gratitude to the shapers!!). Certainly the prey drive was the initial tool used, but so many "limbs and branches" have been added and refined. And pruned.

 

Thanks to everyone for their photos & comments.