Pam Wolf Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Since this was brought up on another topic, I've been involved in this discussion on another list and think Sue's question might need discussing. What is a Puppy Mill? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 28, 2002 Report Share Posted December 28, 2002 Hey Pam - Remember that Supreme Court judge, "back in the day" when there was such a thing as community standards - who said, "I may not be able to define pornography, but I know it when I see it."? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Well,I'm not sure I can spot a prostitute, especially if she is well-dressed and speaks with a proper accent, lives in a big house in the best part of town and is seen with all the right people. But she just may be a prostitute for all that. So what IS a puppy farm? Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fealomwen Edhel Posted December 29, 2002 Report Share Posted December 29, 2002 Hi! My *personal* definition of a puppy mill is any breeding regime where the ONLY (or at least the main) reason for breeding is the money. Usually, this is accompanied by inhumanely-kept animals, little discretion in breeding for any kind of standard, working or otherwise, and bitches being bred as often as possible. I've spent the last couple of years surfing the internet and lurking in many, many dog-oriented boards and lists, and I've found that you can get a ton of variations of the definition of 'puppy mill'. The one thing that I've seen almost always agreed on is that they are bad things. Fealomwen and Alex the BC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Well, Sue, I guess you kinda prove my "community standards" thing... I don't think pornography and prostitution are the same thing at all... Suppose you and Pam tell us what YOU think puppy mils are? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicken Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 I'd say the distinction between back yard breeder and puppymill has to be made. To me, most are backyard breeders. Here's a prime example of one: Friday night we were at the local tavern where we can bring a dog with us. We brought our lab/great dane mix. He's striking - looks like a huge yellow lab with bright blue eyes. Immediately this idiot starts talking to us about breeding him to his golden! My husband said why the heck would we breed him to a golden? He's a mix and anyways he's neutered. Well, the guy thought he was a blue eyed lab and proceeded to tell us all the money we could have made off him. Just like how his golden's last litter made him $3000. One sentence that he said that fits perfectly with all backyard breeders mentality is "if you have a purebred it's money in the bank" - referring to breeding them. As for a puppymill, being in rescue, I think of puppymills only as the large commercial breeding facilities. Doesn't matter how great the conditions are, if there are multiple breeds and many dogs (I'm talking in the hundreds), it's a puppymill. Everything else is a backyard breeder. Cathy ------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted December 30, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 You asked Bill, I think any commercial--facility would merit being a puppy mill. Also anyone who's primary goal is 'Making'money' off the litter. But there are gray areas--yes? For the person whose livelyhood is derrived from working/training and selling the dogs, do we deny him/her a profit? But it boils down to what is the primary reason for breeding? I believe if it is for just the money, regardless if they are breeding their family pet or breeding 150 bitches (my neighbors used to run 150 bitches before the State tightened it's regulations) it is a puppymill. And I've know people with one very poor quality bitch who breed to the national champion because they can sell the puppies for more money--is this not borderline puppymill? Or is it full fledged PM? And then there was the fellow with 60 dogs--sled dogs. Many would call him a PM--but he knew each dog, could tell you the parents off the top of his head, could tell you how each dog ran and was 3 times world CH in sprint races. And his dogs were kept clean and healthy and well adjusted. And he bred 'mixes'. It's not the number of dogs. I know several commercial breeders who have their dogs in pretty decent conditions, but they sell to brokers and are selling for profit over quality--regardless of the breed/s. And I know of show breeders who actually breed very few litters whose dogs spend 231/2 hours a day in crates. Yet these latter folks are usually not thought of as puppy mills since they don't breed often. OK, Bill what is your definition? And let's not talk prostitutes and pornography--those are just as grey as Puppymills. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Sounds like you have your ideas, Pam, and they vary depending at least a little, on what use the dogs are... 60 dogs aren't many for a dedicated sled dog team...I've known couples who have had up to 150 dogs... And many trialing couples I know have 30 dogs or more... And although both those groups may have a bunch of pups - as replacements or to help finance the facility, I don't consider them puppy mills... Guess, I'll stick with my original statement - I know one when I see one... Otherwise, what does it matter? ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted December 31, 2002 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Bill, I think you misunderstood, I do not think the fellow with the sled dogs to be a puppymill, as his primary goal in breeding was to produce top notch sled dogs, not for the money alone. Nor are teh folks who work with their hunting or stock dogs whose primary goal is to 'improve' their breed, and who just might make a little money off which to live. The emphasis here is on which priority they use for breeding. However, the show breeder whose dogs spend 23 1/2 hours a day in crates is no better than those who breed just for profit. It involves quality of life for the dog and the breeder's intent/purpose for breeding which I think defines a PM. As for what it matters, not much I guess if nothing is done about them. I was involved when KS started cleaning up it's act. Very few commercial kennels in KS now compared to about 10 years ago. The state's regulations make it difficult for them to exist unless they are well taken care of. And this translates into money and cutting into profits. The defining of a PM was a difficult one then and you should have heard the 'discussions' that occured in trying to define the 'primary containment area' when the show/hobby breeders were trying to explain to the legislature that their dogs lived in their livingroom! These guys envisioned kennels--not crates--with feces everywhere LOL (actually I have seen show breeders whose houses were fitting this description but that is another story) So I suppose the definition matters IF one is trying to put in regulations and cut down on those substandard operations. So I suspose that defining a PM requires setting standards for the care and maintaince of the dogs. But often the good breeders are hurt along with the bad. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Bill and all, I actually mentioned this subject because I admit to being unsure what a PM is. I can spot the obvious. However is the definition dependent on quantity and quality or the conditions all the dogs are kept in? Is it a mirror of the attitude with which the breeder does business? If so, a breeder with 4 dogs kept poorly may be more of a PM than a breeder with 14 dogs who looks after them well. There are persons I know of around here who have dogs they have done moderately well with in trials, buy in bitches, never let them out, produce a litter and then sell the bitches on. The quality of the pups is all over the place but usually with some talent and it isn't until 18 months later that any less talented pups are found to be so. What hurts me is that the bitches bought in are virtual prisoners. The conditions aren't bad, however. Just OK.If he has too many at once he uses trailers and storerooms for them. He does this to supplement his income. Yet on the other side of the road we have someone with a really mediocre but well-cared for dog/bitch combo who produces a litter every year for some spending money. In the end the results are the same. However I would call the first one a PM and the second a BYB, I guess purely on numbers. I do admit to being fuzzy about this. My other Big Question is...what do you do if you suspect there is one in a neighbourhood near you? Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 The problem, as I see it, with "humane" cases - human OR animal - is the imposition of outside standards... Now, this is dragging things into a larger arena, I suppose, but it is all part of the picture. Way back in the '70's, my family lived on "the Res" (Native American Reservation)...back before casino's brought in money. We lived with no running water and no inside toilets. Come to think of it, I know some folks who currently live that way, most by eco-choice, not by poverty - except self-imposed (self-selected?) poverty... Our kids, grown now, still talk about going to the lake for shampoos, heating the toilet seat behind the woodstove so your butt wouldn't freeze, and all the other exciting things of a "not so normal" life... When my wife was involved with human services in that same area (25 years later), much of her time was spent convincing many city bred social workers that lack of such facilities shouldn't mean an automatic removal of children and placing them in the system - sometimes, despite her efforts, happy children were pulled from happy families in those circumstances and placed in "healthier" foster homes hundred's of miles away in the big city - where parents couldn't visit them because they had no cars...and where the kids learned to survive on big city streets and with big city gangs instead of living with family, grandparents, and neighbors who taught "traditional values". Now, that is the long way around, but I needed to illustrate a problem with ANYBODY judging - from outside. That is why I don't believe in hard and fast rules - especially rules imposed from "outside" - which in many cases means rules imposed by "educated" politicians, animal humane workers, etc. Did you guys see the "Animal Precinct" where that arrogant blonde took a dog away from it's owner because SHE decided it should have surgery to remove the tumour that the owner had taken to the vet and decided he couldn't afford the several thousands of dollars to remove? He had decided to let the dog live as full a life as it could, and then put it down. The Animal Humane Officer decided that the city would do the surgery and bill the poor guy. So she confiscated his dog - permanently by the way - and billed him. Did that bill take away his families christmas? Did that bill cause the electricity to be shut off? Those things were not important to a single issue, outside controlling force. And that is the problem with "carpetbaggers" of any type and make... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dot me not Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 Hey Bill, Was that the episode where she couldn't actually get hold of the owner because he was in Hawaii on vacation? She had to get in contact with his son instead who was dog-sitting for Dad. It was the same basic scenerio if not the same episode. That old dog was fat and happy, she just had a big ugly oozing tumor. I really got the impression that when she found out that the owner was playing on the beach she got really pissed that he spent his money on that instead of the dog. I personally think she's on a power trip while the cameras are running. Lydia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted December 31, 2002 Report Share Posted December 31, 2002 For what it's worth, here's my impression of a puppy mill: Dogs are not looked at as dogs, but as uterus' and penis' with the dog's sole reason for existance being to propagate. So long as they are able to reproduce, they are part of the factory. While most of us have images of dogs crammed like chickens in crates & living in filthy conditions when we hear "puppy mill", PM's can be pristeen, with the dogs kept healthy for longer reproductive lives,--- or piss poor filthy conditions, being fed the crummiest stuff available & minimally vetted because any quality care, medical & feed, cuts into the profits. Opposite extremes, but still puppy mills because the motive for both is profit. Our laws aren't set up to determine if it is evil to produce pups for profit, but there are laws that exist to police facilities where dogs are kept in deplorable conditions. I get the sense that what is deemed deplorable might vary. In between the 2 above conditions, I would thrown in Mr. & Mrs. Average Joe Blow who buy 2 pups (of the same breed), because of the delights of breeding & selling the progeny over & over to an eagerly awaiting public. Usually, though, these kind of situations don't last long because it is soon realized just how much work a litter of pups can be, and if they in fact don't sell, as the pups grow, they eat them out of house and home. So for a short time, Mr. & Mrs. Joe Blow are puppy millers too. We do have a situation in our area where the folks have been producing Border Collies for 20+ years. They are intelligent and articulate people, but still a puppy mill. No health screenings done, dogs are never worked, but occasionally imported from working lines and they do have a nice little assembly line process. Have about 3 bitches on the premises, & 1 or 2 males to service them every time they come into heat. Multiply that by 20+ years--wonder how many pups they have produced. Wonder how much money they've made? Well that's my 2 cents worth. Vicki Well, those are my impressions of a puppy mill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Hey all, Somewhere, in some philosophy class I took, we discussed "thingness" as being defined by a constellation of characteristics. So, in this thread we have set out a group of "core characteristics" that define puppy mill. It seems to me that to the extent that a breeding operation is characterized by this list it is a puppy mill. Suppose we all agree that producing large numbers of pups for the primary purpose of clearing a profit is one defining characterisic of puppy mills. Then we see Mr. and Mrs. Joe Blow as not posessing this characteristic. Their operation is more backyard breeding or unethical irresoponsible breeding and less puppy milling? ------------------ Margaret Insert obligatory disclaimers regarding the relative worthlessness of my subnovice opinion here. drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Ok disclaimer here...I have only bred two litters and do have personal opinions that I keep to myself on breeding...that said and just to throw out for ppl to think about... Why are sheep different than dogs? Why do ppl get so up in arms about the breeding of dogs vs the breeding of other animals. I dont mind saying I got screwed on a sheep purchase and ended up with CL in my flock. I am waiting on pins and needles to wean my lambs off so I could "squeeze" one more years lamb crop off these ewes before sending them to market. I market lambs, lots of ppl do. (I have no ethical problem with raising sheep for money/food etc.) All are animals, why is it seen as different to market pups. They aren't being eaten, killed etc. Anyway, I am just bored, it is raining here and am wondering about ppls individual opinions about why it is different. I know why I think it is wrong etc...but just wondering about others. Please please by my post dont think that I am advocating breeding for money etc, I am just trying to start up a debate because it is raining and I am VERY bored. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PrairieFire Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Sam - just a quickie comment - are you aware there is a CL vaccine now - it can be given in combination with your C, D, T...? It's been quite common in oz for some time...I don't have any personal expereince with it but the ozzies nearly all have to use it... ------------------ Bill Gary Kensmuir, Working Stockdog Center River Falls, WI 715.426.9877 www.kensmuir.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 1, 2003 Report Share Posted January 1, 2003 Yes, Bill thanks. When a friend who lives locally and also got sheep from the same "source" had it titered by the vets, I guess they can rate the strenght of that particular strain or something. Our strain was thru the roof. My friend got a vaccine made from our actual strain and she vaccinated her sheep. I used the run of the mill vaccine you would get from like say Jeffers or a like company. All 45 of my remaining ewes have had abcesses or have them currently. (I have gotten rid of like 50 animals already trying to do the cull method, my friends over a 100) I knew this going in and have kept them isolated in the hopes of getting one more years lamb crop off them as last years lambs,(I have 40 of the 70 left) only two have come with lumps (and they are gone) and it has been one full year. But anyway, thanks for the input, I am afraid I know quite a bit about CL now, and it isnt the end of the world as I though, just a real pain in the butt... I really dont have to get rid of the ewes, but this is my last ditch effort to try and get it under control. If I still have problems I will just market off my lambs for meat as I am doing now to keep in fresh animals for training. Anyway, Happy New Year, Hope it wont be raining tomorrow as I have a major case of cabin fever. [This message has been edited by tucknjill (edited 01-01-2003).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Whiteman Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 Sam, As a sort of attempt to answer your question about breeding sheep/dogs as being different in nature, I guess the obvious answer is that sheep were always "for profit" even when man was living in straw houses were and considered a crop while dogs have been one of (if not THE) oldest domesticated animal all over the world.Dogs are useful...guardians, hunters, gatherers etc. However the Chinese have bred dogs as a crop for a long time and are now just enforcing laws which forbid it...not always successfully. And I understand that vegetarians have trouble with the anomoly too, so abstain from consuming animals bred as a crop. I can understand Bill's remarks about the problem of amateurs interfering with situations which seem superficially suspect. I was once told in public that I was cruel for transporting my dogs in vari-kennels in the back of a car!! I quietly asked them if they wear their seatbelts too... Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 Sue, It was just an interesting thought I had the other day...It being "ok" for the most part to raise livestock for food, and yet people get up in arms about ppl raising puppies. Just interesting how our culture is. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 One difference-surplus sheep are eaten, rarely left to run around, killing other animals, chasing cars, biting humans (sheep rarely bite humans, you usually have to put your hand into their mouths ), destroying other folks property. And while some folks do keep sheep as 'companion' animals most folks do keep dogs as companion animals and we humans assign a different value on our 'companions' And don't folks complain equally when livestock--sheep, cattle or hogs are treated in what is considered an Inhumane fashion? And complain expecialy when horses--now considered a companion animal-are treated in a fashion which is deemed inhumane? The biggest difference I see is that the surplus is not left to wander the streets to reproduce and produce more surplus. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 Yes, but it's not the puppy mill breeder who is letting dogs run the streets; it's those who have bought them. If I buy in feeder lambs, and I'm lazy about my fencing, and my flock gets out all the time, would it occur to my neighbors to blame the person who bred the lambs? Why do we minimize dog owners' responsibility by shifting it to the breeder? I have always thought the evolution of the "responsible breeder" concept is a very thought-provoking subject. Good question, Sam. I wonder if it might be more that we breed lambs with the intent that they will die before maturity, whereas with dogs our intent is that they should live out their natural lifespan. If a meat animal dies for whatever reason, that's more or less what was supposed to happen anyway; if a dog dies short of old age, that's a failure. Market feedback will keep lamb production in line -- if too many are produced, prices will go down, ensuring that fewer are produced. So there's no need for social disapproval to stem the flow of unwanted lamb. But market feedback doesn't work the same way with dog production. There's still an active puppy market even as older dogs are euthanized en masse. So we see production of more dogs as interfering with the ideal we have of dogs living their full lives -- each pup sold is taking a place that an existing, homeless dog might fill. I dunno -- just some thoughts and not very satisfactory ones yet. [This message has been edited by Eileen Stein (edited 01-02-2003).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 When Jack Russell breeders criticize one another, it is not uncommon for "puppy mill" to be bandied about as shorthand for a breeder who breeds more than one or two litters a year. Anyone who has bred a litter knows that it is virtually impossible to care for/place jack russell pups properly when you deal with more. When my husband quit smoking he went to a hypnotist who taught him a "self hypnoisis mantra. "_______# of cigarettes is more than enough for me today." Dealing with the logistics of one border collie pup suggests to me that the border collie breeder's mantra could be: "One litter of pups is more than enough for me this decade." I guess one characteristic of a puppy mill is that the puppy's future is of no concern to the producer. The puppy miller leaves that end of the business to pet shop owners. This is something I can't do with puppies. I am sure I wouldn't be able to do it with lambs either. Growing up amidst the cattle and sheep operations in the west, I realized early on that I had no future in truebiz livestock work. I just don't have the mental toughness for it. ------------------ Margaret Insert obligatory disclaimers regarding the relative worthlessness of my subnovice opinion here. drumlins@adelphia.net [This message has been edited by Margaret M Wheeler (edited 01-02-2003).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tucknjill Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 Eileen, I tell you I was just pondering things as I am known to do when I am just puttering around by myself...pretty interesting thinking. I mean ethics and why they have evolved the way they have. Why some things are accepted and others not. Some things are very obviously wrong and others right, but the gray areas are interesting to me. I think I should have been a lawyer, I like thought provoking discussions with two very strongly differing arguments. Both compelling and such like that...anyway, no rain today, I am off to finish working the "string". Happy New Year! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 I am new in the breeding world and was wondering (since you were talking baout puppy mills) if anyone had tried to sell the pups before they were born. By this I mean only take orders from customers who realy want them and when you have a list of say 10, breed your bitch and then how many puppies you get are how many people off the top of the list will get one. By this it seems that only the people that really want them will get them, there won't be over breeding, no leftover pups and you could make better selections because you would have more time and money to select teh stud dog and pay for him. Am I all wrong? Do I still have much to learn? Open for the help! [This message has been edited by Sam (edited 01-02-2003).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted January 3, 2003 Report Share Posted January 3, 2003 Sam, Do you have a litter in the works or are you planning one? ------------------ Margaret Insert obligatory disclaimers regarding the relative worthlessness of my subnovice opinion here. drumlins@adelphia.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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