Jump to content
BC Boards

ILP's, why bad?


BigD
 Share

Recommended Posts

While reading a certain other thread, the issue of ILP's came up. I have an honest question that is meant in no way to insult anyone. I lurk more often than I post, and respect the fact that this board opens my eyes to many things.

 

A year ago we rescued a 2.5 yr old Border Collie who was a handful and not socialized at all. We worked with him privately for a few months until we could get into a beginner Obedience Class. Well, Buddy and I took to that very well and we scored a 97.5/100 at graduation. We then went into Intedrmediate O. and scored a 98.5/100 at graduation.

 

During this time, many trainers/friends saw that Buddy enjoyed this as much as I did and advised me to look into getting an ILP for him. I did some research, put it off, did more research and then started getting into herding. We've only been to sheep 3 times since Jan. That's as often as it is available to us. However, some people want to start a new Herding club that is AKC recognized (I can hear you all cringing...sorry!) in order to have more trials on the island.

 

Well...I can't say that I like the AKC - I don't. I hate what they are doing to the breed in conformation. But how does getting an ILP on a de-sexed dog "hurt" the breed?

 

I'm not trying to push anyone's buttons, I am just curious. I did get Buddy's ILP and I plan to do some pre-novice stuff this year. And I plan to do Herding Tested and all that if and when the club gets recognized. However, I feel that my case may be a bit different than those of you on the mainland because there are no other trials available on the islands. Only AKC.

 

So, as a very responsible owner (at least, I think I am smile.gif), am I doing wrong by the breed by having Buddy in Obedience, Herding, Rally and/or Agility with an ILP? The AKC will only take de-sexed dogs for an ILP, so doesn't that mean something?

 

I'm not defending the AKC, but since I have no other option if I want to trial - am I that bad of a person to have a Border Collie with an ILP?

 

I look forward to your views on this subject.

 

Denise

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Denise,

 

You sound like a very responsible dog owner to me!

 

Back when AKC first recognized the border collie, the USBCC wrestled with the question of what position we should take about future involvement with the AKC. Some people felt that to be consistent we should urge people not to get ILPs on their dogs, because to do so and to participate in AKC programs was supporting AKC, and therefore supporting an organization that is doing harm to our breed. In the end, though, we decided to draw the line at actual registration, and not to oppose ILPs for border collies. The main consideration was that, as you say, getting an ILP number on a neutered border collie does not affect the future makeup of the breed. We were also mindful that many people and dogs benefit a lot from participation in these programs, and it would be a hardship for them to give it up. I know many long-time border collie people who have refused to have contact with AKC in any way, shape or form following recognition, in some cases walking away from high-powered obedience careers, and while I admire them very much, I don't think it's reasonable to expect newer people to the breed to have that kind of intensity about it.

 

As I said in the other thread you referred to, it's a slippery slope, and hard to know where to draw the line. Did we draw it in the right place? Sometimes I have second thoughts, but overall I think we did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Denise,

 

I was the one questioning whether an ILP could be terminated.

 

My interest in doing so is out of principle...I really don't want anything to do with the organization. I am active with two breeds: Border Collies (currently threatened by the akc) and to a much lesser extent German Shepherds (a breed already ruined by the akc). I suppose I see an even uglier aspect of the situation working in German Shepherd rescue where you see the disasterous results of breeding for money, color, look, etc.....alot of BIG name pedigrees end up as throw away dogs....but I digress.

 

There is nothing wrong with participating in sporting events with your dog (obedience, agility, herding, tracking, etc)...I commend and admire you for wanting to work with your dog. Often times, AKC is the only "game" in town if you want to pursue a sport with your dog. There are some alternatives to akc, if you are interested: Herding (ahba and asca) and Agility (NADAC and USDAA). Fortunately, there is not much available outside of akc for obedience...AOCNC?

 

I originally ILPd my rescue dogs to participate in obedience and agility. I had active dogs that needed *jobs* and obedience and agility seemed to be the only outlets I could find at the time. I really didn't enjoy any of them, especially the three ring circus trials. Once I discovered herding the rest was history for both my Border Collie and me. My other working Border Collies are ABCA registered (formerly ISDS and CBCA) and that's all that's necessary for me to pursue my interests...my life...heck, not even that as the USBCHA doesn't require it and I'm not a breeder.

 

I suppose a *hard core purist* could argue that showcasing the border collie at an akc event might advertise and promote the breed in that venue...I do believe that this is what is going on to some extent at AKC agility events and with flyball. In order to be competitive in that venue, more and more people are acquiring border collies. I really don't care jump into this argument but I guess it could be made.

 

Really the ILP issue is a personal one in my view. I can't say it is BAD...I just would prefer not to have my name or the name of my dogs associated with it.

 

Elizabeth

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

Hard core purist here. My problem with Border collies competing in any AKC event, whether on an ILP or a full registration is exactly as Elizabeth laid it out. I don't want to see Border collies in AKC venues.

 

I realize that this is tilting at windmills, but there you go.

 

From what I have seen of local press accounts of the AKC dog show that descends on this area each fall like a pall, it is Border collies that are getting all the attention in the Obedience ring, all the attention in the Agility events, and a lot of the attention in the breed ring. They are the New Thing, the Latest Craze, etc.

 

Lots of breeders are phasing out of the last Latest Thing -- Rottweillers in this area -- and into Border collies.

 

To John Q. Public, there is no difference between the ILP Border Collie running in the AKC-sanctioned agility event (must be the top venue, since the AKC sanctions it) and the one competing in the breed ring.

 

When I go to the more urban trials, people are constantly asking me about the difference in markings and coat type in the dogs that I have with me. The questions generally boil down to this: "Don't you have a breed standard?" And when you try to tell them that the breed standard is the working ability of the dogs, they have no idea what you're talking about.

 

At the AKC events, they will learn what a "Border collie should look like," which is what they all want to know. The AKC is very good at putting the hay down where the goats can get it.

 

So anyway, John Q. Public sees the ILP Border collie winning Obedience at the AKC dog show, and goes and asks the competitor if he can buy a puppy. In all likelihood, the competitor says, "No, I have had him neutered." Perhaps then the person moves on to the breed ring and talks with a few people who are breeding for temperament. They probably don't have anything for him either.

 

Perhaps he comes to a guy like me, and gets an earful about how they are not bred to be pets, and that he should spend some time around real Border collies and get to know them before buying a pup.

 

Then, in a little while, he will stumble across one of these AKC versatility breeders with their big flashy web sites, accepting payment via the Internet, who are offering "babies" in lots of nifty colors that are guaranteed to be the tops in whatever you choose to do with them.

 

Sounds perfect! Sign me up for one of your next litters!

 

To be perfectly honest about this, there are certainly plent of non-AKC breeders who will also sell pups to anyone with a checkbook. Indeed, most of the pet store Border collie pups don't come with AKC pedigrees.

 

But if old John Q. hadn't seen that ILP Border collie in the obedience ring at the AKC dog show, he wouldn't have gotten the notion in his head that he had to have one.

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill F,

I see your point I really do and am not being argumentative....I just want to know what we do with the herding washouts....the ones that actually are high energy, but for one reason or another are not good herding dogs? Where do they go if not agility or obedience homes? What can we do with them????

 

Just curious,

Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know about obedience, but I do know there are plenty of non-AKC agility venues. And I suspect there would be fewer herding washouts if there were fewer versatility breeders.

 

I don't really have a problem with agility or obedience -- just when they are part of a forum that promotes "purebred" dogs, such as an AKC dog show.

 

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, here goes....I have to agree with Bill. (Gulp!) Border collies at AKC events do advertise and promote the breed, though I'm not sure how many John Q. Publics actually see them there. As Eileen said, sometimes AKC is the only game in town, or one decides that it is a game to play. I've hesitated to enter this debate (other threads), because in theory/philosophy, I agree with the "breed for working ability only" idea. Period. No ifs, ands or buts.

 

However. (Ha!) Some of you know this story....sorry for repeating myself! I rescued a border collie, originally registered with ABCA; never taken to stock that I know of; and now, in spite of my efforts, simply refuses to SEE sheep. She simply does not know they exist. (Hence, another agreement with a previous post by Bill: ABCA is no guarantee of working ability!) She was spayed when I got her; if she had not been, I would have done so immediately.

 

She is ILPed (based on her looks only); we have competed in AKC(as well as other agility venues). She's pretty darned good at it, we both have a ton o' fun, and we "work" (said loosely) at it a lot.

 

But when she's lived her useful life out (which I'm hoping is many years into the future), I'd like to be able to take advantage of what I learned with her, and continue doing agility. I admit a certain satisfaction in winning (not necessarily beating out others, just qualifying), so I'd very likely be looking for another border collie. I'd like to think that I could find another rescue as good as she is, and that's certainly where I'd look first. As I have no intention of breeding, a spay/neuter would be done quickly.

 

But there are certainly a lot of people doing agility (as well as the other "games") who do want to win, and a few that actually make a living at it. Of course, they want only the best: border collies! This definitely creates a market. The spectators see who wins, and think they must have that breed. So folks begin breeding for agility ability.

 

What's an agility addict to do?!

 

My only solution is to go for a rescue. But in spite of all the reasons to do so (I have three rescue dogs and many reasons!), some folks are simply not going to take the chance on health, temperament, ability, etc. and will be looking for proven agility ability.

 

I don't believe any of this is the way it should be, but as Elizabeth said, "In order to be competitive in that venue, more and more people are acquiring border collies." It is indeed a slippery slope, but I don't see any way off of the slope. People are people, and whether it's self-accomplishment, or greed, or whatever, border collies are going to be in demand for the things that they are good at - in addition to herding (which mine is not...).

 

One other note to Denise: any local club can eventually get sanctioned by USDAA and/or NADAC to put on agility trials. It takes some work, and I'm guessing that AKC can do it, because they have other events to offset the expense of putting on an agility trial. The biggest expense I see for you would be getting judges to come to trials there (I'll bet many would be willing! it would just be expensive...). Because one needs to show under different judges to acquire titles, you couldn't just get someone from there to be a judge and use him/her all the time.

 

Truth be told - I don't particularly like AKC agility, and definitely feel guilty both having the ILP number and participating in their trials. (See, Bill, you've done and got to me! But not quite enough to try and un-ILP the dog just yet...)

 

The only place I might disagree with Bill on his post is: I don't think most of the public that is becoming interested in the breed is seeing them at AKC obedience rings (or any AKC venue). It's popular media - movies, books ("A Dog Year" by R. Katz is the latest I know of), TV ads, etc.. I think the best way to reduce this interest is to keep telling folks how high-maintenance the breed is, and how they shouldn't really get one unless they have or have access to sheep. Talk about tilting at windmills....

 

Thanks to all (so far) for a civil, respectful discussion (and even slight disagreement!). Let's keep it that way here!

 

diane

 

[This message has been edited by diane allen (edited 08-28-2002).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is all great information - thank you all for the reply.

 

I agree with you Bill. And I do feel bad that some idiot out there with money to burn and a kid to entertain will see me and my wonderfully beautiful Border Collie and say - he's a nice looking dog. Let's get one for Susie. And off he will go to the mega-puppy-factory that has tons of pups shipped in from Australia (no quarentine laws for them or New Zealand). So he will pay at least $1300 for this pup. Will he check pedigree? No. Will he check eyes and hips? Probably not even think about that. Will he de-sex the dog? Only if he is responsible, but I doubt it. If he was responsible, he would have researched the breed first and not bought one in the first place, let alone from a puppy-factory.

 

Is this all my fault? Could very well be. But what do I do? Lock my dog up? Wear a shirt in the ring that says "Border Collies are working dogs, not AKC posters." Ohhh...the trials I would win with that! smile.gif

 

I have no options out here - even if I want to herd. I can do it just for fun and leave it at 4 - 6 times a year. Or, I could join the herding club - support the AKC in a round about way by doing so - and get my dog on sheep 2-3 times a month.

 

So, yes, I could just stick to walks on the beach, running in the meadow, etc. If there were some non - AKC organized trials out here, I would opt for them in a second. But there are not. So what do I do?

 

I have been asked to serve on the Board for the Herding Club. I was thinking of recommending that we screw the AKC recognition (not in so many words, but close) and go for AHBA or ASCA. But, the facts that I know right now are that the majority (ok, all) of the members are AKC groupies and have registered AKC sport dogs. No conformation that I know of. So that brings in the dual registery thing. Can an AKC dog compete in an AHBA/ASCA trial?

 

I would really stir up the pot if I brought this up. So any info you have on this issue would help me go into this armed for war.

 

Another question - how do the AKC herding trials differ from others, besides the obvious AKC label?

 

I apologize for aksing the newbie questions, but if I can offer up an alternative to the Hawaii herding dogs other than AKC, I will try.

 

Denise

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I am in 100% agreement with you...I dont like seeing them participate in an organization that promotes breeding for looks, but other than UKC, there is no other venue for Obedience competitiors..(at least there wasnt when I was doing it, and it has been an awful long time.) I also agree with you that in a perfect world they wouldn't. I also agree that the people breeding for versitility arent helping things any. However, even from Top Ranking working dogs, there are washouts...what do you do with them? I have heard many ppl quoting statistics of less than 1 out of 100 making an open dog, what do we do with the other 99? (I can guarentee you I didnt buy from any versitility breeder) I would never dream of selling an intact animal out of my control, but have placed 4 spayed and neutered animals with agility folks and they are in wonderful homes. You see, my beef isnt the whole politics thing, it is the dogs...what do we do with them when they dont make the grade. I wish with all my heart that it wasnt with the akc, and I can see the harm you speak of in terms of advertising, revenue lost etc, but in terms of dog benifit, I cant see the harm in selling them altered and having them compete with an ILP. They have to go somewhere....Sam

 

PS and on a side note...I was approached by a lady who competes at the novice level wanting to breed to my Tucker...I told her no that I wasnt interested as I do not find the bitch to be to MY liking (might suit someone else just fine) That would have been 500 in my pocket, but I will not breed my dogs outside my kennel unless I really liek the bitch. My point being, she had lined up another nice dog within say oh I dunno 10 minutes....There will always be someone out there to take the money...they only thing you can do is stay true to your beliefs and that is what I did.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I gotta say -- there is life for a dog outside of organized competition. If my dogs never saw another sheep, I'd find plenty of things to do with them, and none of it would involve the AKC, and it probably wouldn't involve competitive dogsports either. There's nothing wrong with border collies being companions to the right people. I can point to dozens of homes where border collies are happy as pets, doing all kinds of things with their happy owners. I know "pet" is a dirty word in some circles, but it's true all the same.

 

But then, I grew up in the days when you played sandlot ball instead of little league, and kick the can instead of soccer league. Maybe nobody even thinks in terms of making things up on their own anymore.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill F. writes:

"But if old John Q. hadn't seen that ILP Border collie in the obedience ring at the AKC dog show, he wouldn't have gotten the notion in his head that he had to have one."

 

I think the biggest CONSUMERs of border collies have got to be the sport enthusiasts (obedience, agility and herding). I think that when John Q doggie competitor gets his butt kicked running a golden retriever by Susie Q doggie competitor running a border collie, then ole' Johnny Q is going to upgrade to higher powered engine...a border collie. When I was getting my feet wet in agility and obedience I watched a number of people who were driven to win switch to border collies. I also heard alot of people who didn't have border collies complain that the border collies should have their own separate event to give everyone else a chance.

 

I personally don't think the TV and media have as much to do with the proliferation of organized dog sports. After my initiation to obedience and agility trials, I quickly discovered that I did not enjoy the circus that these events become.

 

Besides herding, I have found more and more that I enjoy spending down time walking with my dogs, throwing a stick in the river for them to swim after and spending quiet time.....good for me and good for them.

 

Elizabeth

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by workindogs (edited 08-28-2002).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Denise,

ASCA allows non-Aussies in all of their performance events...herding, agility, obedience, tracking...the only thing they don't offer is conformation showing for non-Aussies. For this reason alone, I think if you're stuck for an alternative, ASCA is a good choice. Now, their herding is mostly arena-trials, and without getting too deep I'll just mention they are not the proper forum to *judge* a working Border Collie. But when your options are so limited and if your goal is just having fun and competing with your spayed/neutered companion dog, then IMO that would be the way to go. [at least you can compete and have fun and earn titles and support an organization that does not support - or even recognize - the conformation "show" Border Collie. Of course the caveat here is to be sure that while everyone is having a blast and racking up titles, that they don't suddenly have an attack of ego and decide to start breeding Border Collies for ASCA events.]

 

It seems to me that it all falls back to that - Breeding. No one argues that its great to see a Border Collie doing agility, or obedience or whatever...maybe he's a herding washout, maybe he's a rescue, maybe he's a pup that just happened to go to a loving pet home with caring experienced owners. The problems start when people decide that they *must* breed these dogs. Somehow it escapes people that by breeding substandard working dogs [and without extensive training and experience, one just cannot know whether their dog is up to snuff. A "herding instinct certificate" or a lil ol' HT or PT or whatever they're called doesn't hardly scratch the surface] but it seems to escape people that breeding these dogs diminishes the breed that they fell in love with.

 

janet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Denise,

 

I don't even see why your club needs to be associated with any larger organization. I suppose the issue is titles. But nearly every state or region in the US has an independent association that sponsors dog trials. Here in the Northeast it's the Northeast Border Collie Association. And while *most* of the trials organized under NEBCA's umbrella are also USBCHA sponsored, not all are.

 

NEBCA has a few things that would be similar to titles. We have year-end trials for qualified dogs in each of the several classes. Within those competitions, there are also awards for the high scoring home-bred dog, the high-scoring pro-novice dog handled by a novice handler, the best owner-trained dog, etc., etc. We also have a compilation of points for the open dogs, and the dog with the most points at the end of the season receives an award.

 

Of course, none of this is recorded on any pedigree.

 

I've often wondered why people who complain that the AKC is the only game in town don't do something to change that fact. Like Sam, I never competed in organized sports as a child, but I played baseball, basketball, football, soccer, etc. It seemed to me we could usually get a pick-up game together on a Saturday afternoon if we wanted to. I don't know why the same thing can't happen in agility, obedience, etc., etc.

 

Is the answer titles?

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No Bill, that was Eileen...I have been competing at something since I was like 5 years old. First 4-H, then Pony Club/Three day eventing, then Obedience and finally herding...I guess that is why my mind is so warped...It was funny when Eileen told me they could just be pets...I guess I am so programed to do SOMETHING that the thought of doing nothing never even entered my little brain. I guess in all fairness to me, I must say, I have only ever had one person come to me who was looking for a pet only. Most ppl that come here are looking for a herding dog, or to see if I have anything that isnt working out and can be used for agility or flyball. Also, in my own defense...the only ppl I know that do have pets the dog is like an inconvenience...too fat, lays on the floor doing nothing and is an extra problem on vacation. (not that this is the norm, just my automatic thought when I think pet) Anyway, Eileen's post was a real eyeopener to me...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bill,

I think the answer is mainly titles...and I don't necessarily mean it in a bad way because most of the people I know personally train and compete as their hobby - not as a means to supposedly increasing their dog's potential breeding value.

The other issue is, of course, equipment - especially in agility. Not too many individuals have the money or space to have a complete set of equipment and the grounds to set a full course...

The AKC isn't the only game in town anymore...though I'm sure in different parts of the country people may have more or less access to the other organizations...but I know here in the Northeast, the top agility organization is the USDAA - which allows all breeds and mixed breeds. We can also do obedience to our heart's content and compete in ASCA trials for titles - The UKC also has some presence here in the northeast.

I think maybe the AKC is the biggest and most visible game in town...but for those who feel morally bound to avoid the AKC, there are alternatives. [and I'm willing to bet that if more people sought them out and supported the alternatives, that they would grow and become more frequent as their numbers swelled - in fact there is a big, multi-day ASCA event each Fall right here in MA that offers obedience, herding & agility for all breeds and conformation for Aussies - and they draw HUGE crowds of exhibitors [of all breeds] to their agility and obed..and to a lesser extent to the herding.]

 

janet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest rtphokie

Denise,

 

Great question! Let me reiterate there is obedience offered through UKC and ASCA and agility offered through USDAA, NADAC, UKC, CPE, JFF, etc...

 

You can certainly start your own club and sponsor whatever organizations you choose if you have some people to help you. In my area, we have no local USDAA, so we're starting our own USDAA club to hold trials. I do talk to some people in other parts of the country where the AKC *IS* the only game in town and they have no desire to change that. But as the motto goes, where there's a will, there's a way.... :rolleyes:

 

Laura & pups, who compete in USDAA agility, NADAC agility, UKC agility, ASCA obedience and flyball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately for those who are looking for obedience venues, AKC really is the only game in town. Yes, ASCA does hold obedience trials, but for those out there that are truly competitive, one big 3 day trial on the weekend is not going to quench that thirst. Would any of us be satisfied going to one herding trial a year? Maybe. I know I?m not and I?m still at the ground level of Novice.

 

It was only about 3 years ago that I was competing very heavily in AKC obedience with another Border Collie I had. Here in the Midwest area (Minneapolis/St Paul Minnesota area) we are lucky to have one of the biggest multi-venue areas around for dog sports like obedience and agility. You don?t have to travel far to get to any of the AKC shows. From May to September I showed my dog every other weekend at an obedience trial in AKC. I did also compete in ASCA obedience shows, however those are far and few between. I believe they would normally have 2 or 3 per year. Agility on the other hand does offer another game in town, NADAC, and from what I?ve heard in the past is a better game than what the AKC has to offer.

 

Janet is right in that people can create alternatives, but like everything it takes time and a lot of work. We all know that if we?ve been involved with helping out at a herding trial or have put one on ourselves. She also mentioned the answer being titles and in some ways I can see that as an argument as well. It is a way of measuring ones success on the way to meeting your goal. I won?t go into detail explaining the way I felt when I got my AKC Utility Dog title on my dog. I had a lot of people tell me that I was crazy for thinking I could get the title after only training for a month and half, but I came very close on the first time out. It was a great feeling knowing that I had met the goals I had set for myself. I also thank this competitive nature of mine for keeping me going with my dogs now in herding. Some days??I?m sure we?ve all been there?..it would be so easy to throw in the towel and let them be pets!!! But I?m determined. It ain?t no small thing to step up to that Novice handler?s post.

 

Well enough of my rambling?.hope some of my 1 cent was worthwhile.

 

Later,

 

Donna May

Novice handler and darn proud of it!

Dryden Joe Rules!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Donna,

your "1 cents" is definitely worth it!

 

(and you don't have to explain your feelings to me on how you felt when you finished your U.D.....I was there, too! my first Border Collie finished her U.D. before her third birthday; she qualified at each and every trial we entered..in fact placed first or second for her first 3 legs of her title. and that was when there was no "Utility A and Utility B" differentiation..and we beat several OTCH pointed dogs on the way to our title. It is thrilling, and no one should take that wonderful feeling away...CONGRATULATIONS!!!!)

 

I don't think anyone is arguing the competitiveness and fun that people have in the dog sports....the problem arises from Border Collies being bred for those sports; or strictly for conformation. This practice diminishes the breed and is what the true Border Collie lovers are so passionately fighting to protect. Unfortunately, the AKC's track record with every other breed, which others have already gone into in great depth, so I won't; but that record of demise of great breeds does not bode well for the chances of the AKC world to be able to preserve and improve the Border Collie breed [to say the least] they may make improvements in their "black and white show dogs" but that is not the Border Collie that we know and love today. The emphasis must remain on working in order to protect and improve the breed....

 

Oh - just to elaborate a little - we're lucky enough in my area to have several ASCA obed events to attend throughout the year to satisfy the craving for competition - lol! - and I believe that as the numbers of competitors has swelled, so has the overall quality of the competition!

 

janet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just want to second Eileen's comments about border collies (or any dogs) being perfectly fine pets, without the benefit of organized activities.

 

Like Sam, I was raised doing competitions--mainly horse related. Our dogs were simply pets. But they didn't just lie around the house, fat and lazy. For us girls, our ponies were our transportation. And we travelled far and wide in the countrysude around our home, sometimes spending most of the day on horseback. Our dogs went with us. If we chose to take the ponies and ourselves swimming in the Potomac River, the dogs went swimming with us. We were outside all the time, entertaining ourselves like farm kids did back then, and the dogs were always a part of that.

 

I started herding training just two years ago. One of my herding dogs was simply a pet till that time (some might say she should still be a pet!). She was my jogging partner and my walking/hiking companion. We played games in the yard--fetch, frisbee, whatever. We hung out together just working on her issues (she was a rescue). Although I considered doing agility with her, I have to admit I just wasn't motivated enough to do so. She and I were just fine with the things we already did every day.

 

Now, of course, I've been bitten by the herding bug. But if tomorrow for some reason I could never get to livestock again with my dogs, I'm sure I could still keep them happy just doing the things we still do in addition to the herding--long walks, jogs, trips to the beach to go swimming, fetch, hanging out.

 

That doesn't mean that other folks shouldn't aim for organized events with their dogs; it just means that if you have a active lifestyle that includes your dog, then you needn't feel obligated to find some sort of organized activity for Fido. And for those who do want or need organized activities (after all, how many of us are really good at keeping up an exercise regimen if we don't have an organized activity like Jazzercise to go to?), go for it. But as others have said here, try not to go against your beliefs, and if that means you have to work harder to make things happen, well, you will probably be a better person after all the sweat and tears. (Sorry for that sort of cliche.)

 

As i said in another thread, I will not ILP my othe rescue or allow him to participate in AKC agility simply because I don't want my $$ going to an organization that has goals for the border collie breed that go against my own thoughts as to what the breed is and should be. In this area, there are other venues besides AKC, but if the friend who is training my dog insists on AKC agility, then she'll simply have to find another dog with which to compete.

 

J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You know, Jack Knox always says in his clinics, "Dunna [do not] praise the dog." I haven't really taken this advice to heart in dog-training -- I do praise the dog at times unless I can see it's distracting to her.

 

But I have kinda taken his advice to heart in life. It's made me conscious of the benefits of developing and applying our own yardstick to measure what we do, rather than looking to someone else's opinion to validate our efforts. If you work for your own satisfaction rather than for someone else's praise, there are no "distractions." Other judges can be mistaken, but when we set our own expectations and honestly assess how we've met them or fallen short -- well, it's just another way of doing things, I guess. I don't want to sound all philosophical -- it's just a thought. But as a manager, I always admired those who worked for the sake of doing a good job in their own eyes, rather than those whose focus was on recognition or year-end awards.

 

This is not to say that there's anything wrong with entering competitions and enjoying a ribbon or a title. I'm just saying that it's not the only way to measure what you do with your dog. Training your dog to track is fun, even if you never enter a tracking test. Training agility is fun. Even if you never compete, even if your obstacles are makeshift rather than regulation, you can develop your dog's skills and your skills, and develop your relationship too.

 

Sam wrote, "I guess I am so programed to do SOMETHING that the thought of doing nothing never even entered my little brain." My point (and I know Sam got it) is that just because you're not competing a dog doesn't mean you're "doing nothing" with him. The people who are happy and successful with border collie pets are doing plenty with them -- they're just doing stuff that THEY'VE set up to do, rather than doing stuff an organization has set up. I'm noting this because I think (I hope!) Sam will think it's funny that her background in competition caused her to describe people who are not competing as "doing nothing." I mean it in a good way, Sam. smile.gif

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Eileen Stein (edited 08-29-2002).]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That would be me to a "T" Eileen...programmed since birth...I am a very competitive person to be sure (I hope most of the time in a good way) But yes, even subconciously I said doing nothing as it relates to pet ownership...guilty as charged...(insert one of those damn smiley face things...still cant get it to work..sigh) Off to NJ, see you all this weekend. Sam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Eileen,

 

Not to sound like I?m kissing your you know what, but I do have to say that I look forward to reading your posts and find your writing very insightful. Maybe it?s because I vaguely am reminded of previous posts that I had written back and forth with you when I first started reading these boards and credit you with shedding some new perspective on the issues of why the AKC is detrimental to the Border Collie as a breed. Especially now I find these boards highly confrontational and to be honest, I have several times decided against posting simply because I didn?t not want to ?get into? with anyone over posting my opinion and have things construed in some manner that I had not intended.

 

Eileen stated: ?It's made me conscious of the benefits of developing and applying our own yardstick to measure what we do, rather than looking to someone else's opinion to validate our efforts. If you work for your own satisfaction rather than for someone else's praise, there are no "distractions." Other judges can be mistaken, but when we set our own expectations and honestly assess how we've met them or fallen short -- well, it's just another way of doing things, I guess. I don't want to sound all philosophical -- it's just a thought.?

 

It is OUR very own yardstick that should be the measure of what we do and how we feel from doing it. It brings to mind another statement that surrounds some thoughts I have been having regarding trialing at the Novice level. I know there was a comment made by a judge to a handler regarding his run and how ?he should do his training at home, not on the trial field?. Who is this judge (or person) that thinks he has the right to make that kind of comment?? How do they know how hard that person has worked or how far they came just to make it to that point? Why do people find it necessary to belittle the activities of some? Is in order to justify or validate their doings more? And why would they feel that was necessary?

 

There have been many a night when I?ve decided to just ?let my two Border Collies ?be dogs??be pets. I?ve opted for a nice long walk around the neighborhood and nearby part instead of taking them down to work sheep. I let them play?..I toss the ball, I throw the Frisbee. I laugh when they run to take a dip in the pool and splash around. It warms my heart to no end to have one lying on the floor sleeping and the other resting his head on my lap while I sit reading a book. They are simply being. They are my companions, my friend and may not so unbeknownst to them as I might think, they kept me alive this last year.

 

Maybe my ramblings above don?t really have a point, but they do have passion. As someone who over the last three years has changed so many things as related to my dogs, I just find that the statement above ?working for your own satisfaction? has become my own private personal mantra. It?s what I hold on to when I?m working the dogs on sheep and become so frustrated that things aren?t going well that I want to give up. I think those are the times when I start thinking that I?m not meeting some other big handler?s standards of perfection?..and that?s when I need to remind myself of how far I?ve come.

 

I hope Denise is getting something out of all our comments. I think you?ve got some good advice from people here and I don?t know how to really say it other than to use some old clich?, but I think Denise, you?ve got a good head on your shoulders in your thoughts regarding your original thoughts in your posts.

 

Enough rambling for now, I've GOT to get some work done here!

 

Later...

 

Donna May

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Julie,

 

I liked your post as well! It too was a good read and I could relate very well to many of the things you said.

 

Janet,

 

Thanks much for your words as well!! I think we all have more camaraderie around here than we realize?.and would should realize it. I won?t go into any more about that.

 

Julie wrote: and you don't have to explain your feelings to me on how you felt when you finished your U.D.....I was there, too! my first Border Collie finished her U.D. before her third birthday; she qualified at each and every trial we entered..in fact placed first or second for her first 3 legs of her title. and that was when there was no "Utility A and Utility B" differentiation..and we beat several OTCH pointed dogs on the way to our title.

 

That sounds EXACTLY like my story!!! Mine finished his before his 3rd birthday as well. Our scores were the highest for our UD title than the CD and CDX titles and we had 2 firsts and 1 second, but even had to win a run off for the 1st! Which if you knew Zip, this was a miracle in itself considering when I first started competing that dang dog would get all squirrelly and start biting at my feet after we did the fast time in the heel pattern. It sorta went downhill though once we started on the UDX, but lucky for me I found the boards, got riled by someone and since then have met someone that?s willing to spend time working with me and my dogs and I?ve got that damn herding bug so bad. You know it?s bad when you start trying to figure out if there would be a way to hide 3 ewes in the backyard of your Minneapolis home!! I was thinking I could get a little trailer then and plop them down in some city park and work the dogs?..how long before the police would bust me though?? : )

 

Well, as I said I've got to go get some work done here. I'm still a peon and not a boss!

 

Have a good morning!

 

Donna May

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With the question being "Why are ILPs bad?" I think that Julie hit the nail right on the head (sigh, yet another cliche). It's supporting a kennel club that has brought about the ruination of so many breeds and has now got thier hands on our beloved border collies.

 

The argument about John Q. Public seeing it and runnning out and getting one isn't valid. Not only for the reasons already posted but because border collies can be seen in many dog sports which aren't affiliated with the AKC. The type of person who will buy a dog because he "saw a real cool one" is more likely to end up purchasing from the AKC group because of the widely believed lie that registered dogs are better.

 

The public by and large have no understanding that there are registries outside the AKC/CKC and many of the ones that do will only buy a dog registered with these organizations because they have the most (publicized) things to do with your dog. A lot of people in cities want to participate in the dog sports, we do live in a highly competetive world, and the best chance of going the farthest, and proving it, is to get titles on thier dogs. The best place to get a title is with a major kennel club.

 

This does not mean that I'm for the AKC or ILPs. Simply a statement from my experience with John Q Public.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...