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ILP's, why bad?


BigD
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Donna,you wrote:

 

>>>?working for your own satisfaction? has become my own private personal mantra. It?s what I hold on to when I?m working the dogs on sheep and become so frustrated that things aren?t going well that I want to give up. I think those are the times when I start thinking that I?m not meeting some other big handler?s standards of perfection?..and that?s when I need to remind myself of how far I?ve come.<<<

 

Your attitude is very well placed and I'm sure your dogs are lucky,happy to have you as their owner.

 

This is not a critism at all,for whatever it's worth as long as the owners and dogs are happy with their pursues in their daily lives,no one has the right to form any opinion.

OTOH,there are many people who thinks quite highly of their accomplishments with their dogs without outside input and they make a firm decision to breed out of their untried/unproven animals.

This is where the problems begins to surface,most cannot sell or place their pups from an unproven animals to working homes (stock) and they opt to sell it to public.

As long as public is interested in pups as pets/companion dogs,(most pet owners do not think in the lines of breeding)they get spayed/neutered,perhaps fat and lazy but they are loved,respected etc.,etc.

These types are not at all any threat to the breed,as a matter of fact,they are the most ardent protectors of the breed. Take a look at Carl and Chad and many others.

What happens when half the pups ends up with beauty and sport seekers?

This is where the problems lies and puts us in the great,big mess we're currently facing.

 

I hope you won't take this as a confrontation towards you or anyone else who are happy with their accomplishments whether they have 5 sheep or none as long as they are not bred and spread around.

 

 

 

------------------

Inci Willard

Clearville,PA

814-784-3414

ikw@pennswoods.net

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Inci,

 

Thanks very much for your compliment on my attitude. It?s hard, as I?m sure you know to keep a good attitude some days when things just aren?t going well with the sheep and dogs and, of course the handler that is still struggling to keep it all together!

 

It?d be pretty hard to take your comments in your post as ?confrontational?. I agree wholeheartedly with your statement,

 

?OTOH,there are many people who thinks quite highly of their accomplishments with their dogs without outside input and they make a firm decision to breed out of their untried/unproven animals.?

 

That is where a lot of the problem lies.

 

Donna

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Well, I will try to address as much as I can. Being on Hawaiian time, I miss all the early morning posts from the mainland. What I'm reading at 9am is 4 or 5 hours old!

 

Bill F. - you asked about the need for our club to be associated with a larger organization. From the meetings we have had the priorities seem to be this:

 

1. Need more AKC recognized trials in Hawaii to earn more titles faster. (Hard to earn titles when there are only 2-4 trials a year I guess? I don't know...)

2. Need to be associated with an organization that will supply us with cheap insurance in order to have the events. Was noted that AKC offers cheap coverage.

 

So, yes - titles are important to these people. However, my idea currently is to purpose this: Let's become associated with someone other than the mortal enemy (AKC). Someone that still offers titles. But maybe those titles would carry more weight to those people that really know the working breed? I don't know what kind of spin to put on this in order to sell it to the AKC folks. And I don't even know if you can have a dog with AKC titles and other titles.

 

Up until recently *I* did not know there were other registeries besides the AKC. I started doing research on some of the dogs available in this area because I wanted a healthy dog - no hip worries or eye issues, etc. That's when I really started to notice these dog names with all those silly letters after them. Then I went to the AKC page to try and figure out what's going on. The Border Collies look like sad - with their fancy pictures and the handler standing there with a brush. PULEASE. Just because they have HT after their name means they can work??? Oh boy... But I found the only thing out here is - take a risk at a pet store (ugh) or buy from an AKC breeder. Those are my options. And that's how I discovered the 3-ring circus of the AKC.

So now I may have a chance to make a small change in the Hawaiian dog community. Get an organization to be recognized by someone other than the AKC. But again, can the AKC folks earn non AKC titles on their AKC dogs?

 

There are, sadly, no mini-clubs out here that offer non-recognized trials. There is such a push to get AKC titles, it's hard not to get wrapped up in the ribbon-fever.

 

There *are* millions of things that you can do with your dogs on your own that have nothing to do with organized events. But, I enjoy the company. I enjoy watching other dogs work. I enjoy surrounding myself with 50 Border Collies all eyeing those sheep. I enjoy the attention that Buddy gets from people. I enjoy the comments like "Wow Denise, he has really improved since you got him..." It's so self gratifiying. I'm pathetic! smile.gif I especially enjoy brining Buddy home, watching him collapse in the hall and sleep for hours. He seems content. Could I do this all on my own? Yes, but do I want to??? smile.gif No...I like the company.

 

So, saying that and admitting the guilty pleasures, can I change the desire to go AKC for these people? What's in it for them?

 

I know if I saw a flyer saying we had a non-AKC, but recognized by another herding-only sort of organization, I would call the number right away.

 

Again everyone, thanks for the feedback.

 

Denise

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To be perfectly honest, I retain Solo's ILP for the cachet it confers upon him. For someone who is not particularly savvy about the dog world, it sounds impressive to have an AKC-registered and "certified" (CGC) purebred dog. Normally I could give a crap about this sort of thing but I have a habit of gathering ammunition for defending Solo should the need arise. With his issues -- carefully-managed and well-treated though they may be -- my first priority is protecting my dog. I live in the city and heck, I could probably get sued just if Solo showed his teeth at someone. Anything at all I can do to make it appear that he is something special, not just some throwaway, dog is something I will do because every little bit helps. I figure it's just like how no one wants to believe that a nice clean-cut kid from the suburbs could do something like shoplift, but they're perfectly willing to assume the urban kid with the baggy pants is a serial killer in waiting. It's not fair, but that's life.

 

I don't have the need or desire to ever ILP another dog, since I don't see myself participating in AKC obedience.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Fly

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Guest rtphokie

"But again, can the AKC folks earn non AKC titles on their AKC dogs?"

 

YES for agility, flyball and obedience (which are the only sports I currently compete in, so the only ones I'm qualified to talk about)

 

Laura

 

 

[This message has been edited by rtphokie (edited 08-29-2002).]

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Denise,

Other than AKC, none of the other herding organizations require registration of any kind (akc or other). USBCHA, ASCA and AHBA will all permit non-AKC or mixed breed dogs to enter.

 

You can find the regulations at the following sites:

 

American Herding Breed Association (AHBA) http://www.ahba-herding.org/

 

Australian Shepherd Club of American (ASCA) http://www.asca.org/ (required mixed breeds to be mixed herding breed...if you can tell)

 

United States Border Collie Handlers Association (USBCHA): http://www.usbcha.org/

 

As for agility, both USDAA and NADAC (and I assume ASCA) permit mixed breeds...so therefore, registration is not required. I do believe you need to become a member of the organization, though.

 

Elizabeth

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The UKC (United Kennel Club, which is a reputable registry and predates the AKC, I believe) also sanctions performance events. Dogs have to be registered with UKC to participate, but if I understand correctly they're a little less back-asswards than AKC about some things. I believe they have neuter classes in dog shows, and they also issue performance-only registrations to any dog, including mixed breeds, to allow them to participate in performance events.

 

AKC-registered dogs can get non-AKC titles, but those titles won't go on an AKC pedigree like AKC titles will. And that, I believe, is the trump card that AKC holds over all other performance organizations.

 

-- Melanie, Solo the Red, and Fly

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Melanie, I also believe that UKC has taken a stand which is to not allow Border Collies to show in their conformation shows. Unfortunately, UKC at present does not have a herding program. And UKC does have some requirements on the registration--inbred dogs--not sure exactly how they define it-can only be reg'd if spayed or neutered. I don't compete in UKC, but have some friends who do, so perhaps someone out there knows more?

 

And the fact that AKC does not allow non AKC titles to go on pedigrees is one reason why other venues are somewhat less prestigous to many peopls__if they can't get an AKC title, then it's not important.

 

Pam

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Pam, UKC did take that stand (excluding border collies from conformation) for a long time, honoring the request of the USBCC. Unfortunately, two years ago the leadership at UKC changed, and Wayne Cavanaugh, who had been a Vice-President of the AKC during the border collie wars, took over as President and imposed a much more AKC-type outlook. Soon after that, the border collie was included in conformation showing by the UKC. The English Shepherd met the same fate, BTW, despite the very active opposition of its breed club, which was much more affected than we are because the UKC was their principal--if not their only--registry.

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Hi Sam and Eileen,

 

Sorry to mix you two up.

 

Big D -- if titles are important to these folks, they won't like USBCHA herding. There are four titles awarded per year: National Champion and Reserve, and National Nursery Champion and Reserve.

 

I believe that the USBCHA does offer cheap insurance for events that it sanctions, but it sanctions only trials that meet its guidelines.

 

I've offered to give people any title they want on any dog for $20 per title. Just send me the money, tell me what title you want, and I'll ship it right out.

 

 

 

------------------

Bill Fosher

Surry, NH

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