Joe Anne Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I am definately new to the herding training scene but I was not aware that AKC issued titles for herding???? Are there differences that I need to be aware of or concerned about? Phoenix is gonna attend an intro to sheepherding and the info I got off the web page said the dogs of this trainer have received AKC Herding titles (as well as many others). I am just really green when it comes to herding training, so please any info will be appreciated. I want to make sure Phoenix's sheep experiences are good and solid (especially the first one), and I know how alot of people on these boards (including, myself) feel about the AKC and our Border Collies. I have also heard some say that any "funciton/training" sanctioned or run by AKC should be off limits... Please advise me asap, as I need to register him very soon. Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border colliez Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I know that I'm going to get flak for admitting that I run AKC trials with my dogs, but that's my business. I also run USBCHA, AHBA and ASCA. Anyway, here's the info you want. Yes, AKC does issue herding titles. There are two test classes, HT (Herding Tested) and PT (Pre Trial Tested). I believe that they also have a herding instinct test. The test classes require 2 legs each, and the regular herding classes require 3 legs in order to receive your title. There are regular herding trials, 2 different courses - the A Course, which is held in an arena, and the B Course which is held in a field. There are 3 classes in each course, started, intermediate and the advanced. After you get your advanced title, you can start earning points towards an AKC herding championship. You can purchase a herding rule book, thru AKC, for, I think $3.00. So, if this is something you want to do, don't let someone talk you out of it. I know that this board is anti-AKC. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Originally posted by border colliez:So, if this is something you want to do, don't let someone talk you out of it. I know that this board is anti-AKC. Good luck! I won't try to talk anyone out of doing what they want. I believe giving information and letting a person decide on their own is best. So all I will say is, be aware that the herding that AKC does is NOTHING compared to the USBCHA (I can't ever get the letters right!) herding. Dogs that have achieved in AKC and won titles could not, with out much more training, run in an open. I have never seen an AKC herding trial, I will tell you that right off. But I have talked with someone who did do AKC herding then went to a USBCHA trial and was blown away at the difference. It just ain't the same. From all that I have read about it all, both sides, it seems to me that the AKC uses their herding more as a, "see you snobby BC people, we keep the herding instinct and promote it, when in reality, it is more like tricks the dog has learned than actually being able to get out there and do some thinking on their own. JMO So check it out, then decide. As long as you and your dog are happy with what you decide, ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrigan Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 I have seen and helped at AKC trials and will be helping at AKC, AHBA and ASCA trials this year. I will also have a couple of dogs competing this year in AKC, AHBA and ASCA trials. I will be the first to admit that the AKC trials are nothing in comparison to the USBCHA trials (which I've only seen on tape at this point). If I ever get to the point to try Novice/Novice in an Open trial with one of my Barbies I will be very pleased. However, the AKC trials are meant for all of the AKC recognized herding breeds to compete in and not just BC's. The trial classes are not divided by breed - they all compete together, so the courses have to be designed so that each breed would be able to complete it. Even though a Corgi, OES or a Puli could enter an Open trial, I doubt they would have much success because they weren't bred to do that type of herding. I do know of a couple of AKC BC's who have run in both types of trials and have done OK, but they are few and far between and I think they were dual registered. Anyway, I think that AKC, AHBA or ASCA trials are a good way to get your feet wet if you aren't ready for an Open trial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 AKC "herding" is for breeds that were traditionally developed as livestock working dogs, but are not any longer. They are very "dumbed down" compared to the working trials associated with Border collie handlers - even if you compare them to novice classes. Border collies, with the advantage (usually) of being closer, or still in tune with, their original purpose, are big fish in a little pond at these trials. Because I consider the AKCs overall mission to be antithetical to the Border collie breed, I would not personally support the AKC in any way. I would neither give them registration fees, nor the (rather expensive) participation fees for competitions. I do think, however, that everyone needs to work out their own scruples to their own comfort level. It is not necessary, on the other hand, to participate in AKC trials just because you train with someone who participates in "the system". I know several good handlers around here, who unfortunately have drawn the line solidly with themselves inside the AKC camp. Just be sure you are ready to quietly excuse yourself when you get pressured to "put titles" on your dog, if you have decided not to pursue that course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 So I just read the other thread and realized you are talking about Susan Rhoades? I don't get the impression that she's pushy about the whole AKC thing. You'll be fine, whatever you decide. She seems way cool from what I hear from her students. :cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Joe Anne - You'll be fine there. I train at Keepstone, and I can tell you personally that no way will anybody be pushing AKC propaganda down your throat. It will be very low-key. Susan is on the VBCA Board and runs her dogs at USBCHA Open level. She is very knowledgeable about all the venues. She has "hosted" some AKC trials there - for breed clubs like the Corgi's and the Belgian Terveren's - because she has a group of nice dog-broke sheep and a great set up for trials (and there just aren't many places left like that). I would not hesitate to recommend the clinic to you. She has started lots of dogs, and lots of different breeds. Go! You'll have a blast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 You should not register your dog AKC. Running border collies in AKC trials is rather foolish, particularly on the east coast where there are lots of other trials to participate in. See my post in the training section on why you should give AKC trials a big miss. Don't let people talk you into AKC. Wanting to do so is a poor to nonexistent reason. You read the information. What do you think is the right thing to do? Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Anne Posted April 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Thanks for all the insight. I really have no interest at all getting involved in AKC titles, I want to do this for the fun and training . I was concerned that if we do decide to go further with herding that we wouldn't have a conflict, or that Phoenix would get "confused", if there were big differences. My hope is, that, he will take to the herding, and we can continue with training the traditional BC way. I don't have sheep "yet", but I would love to some day. My main goal now is to let Phoenix do what he was ment to do, and what he would be doing if he lived on a farm, like his parents, and have fun doing it. If he gets to a level that a trainer thinks he can actually participate in trials and be a serious "herder", that would be great! I am totally open. I know me well enough to know that I probably will get hooked, if Phoenix does. I spoke with Susan this evening, and I am even more excited than I was before, she is so supportive and encouraging. We are soooo looking forward to our day with the sheep. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel a little like when I sent my daughter off to 1st grade on her 1st day, when she was a little one! LOL!! I will let ya'll know how it goes!!! YEAH!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedream Farm Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Joe Anne, Have fun at Susan's. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 My friend and I have trained with Susan for almost two years now. In my experience, she would never pressure anyone to register AKC or enter an AKC event. She'll train you and your dog well, let you know what will be happening at her farm (USBCHA/VBCA trials, or other events that you might enjoy watching or entering when you are ready), be fine about your choices, and prepare you for whatever venue you choose. She is very capable of training you for ISDS-style trials. Since my friend's dog is a working-bred Aussie, he is being trained in a manner that is suitable for an Aussie, which prepares him for competition in AHBA or ASCA-style events. And, if Hope enters him in one of those events, I'll be there if I can, to cheer her on. I've chosen to not participate in or support any AKC "trials" and Susan's never made that an issue for me. She respects my choices and I respect hers. She does host some USBCHA/VBCA sanctioned trials, at which the non-sanctioned Novice and Pro-Novice classes have particularly suitable sheep for beginning competitors and beginning dogs. Oftentimes, Mid-Atlantic Border Collie Rescue is on hand to sell lunches, and raise money for rescue. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Susan to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border colliez Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Well, I guess my AKC registered BC must be one of those few and far between dogs that can also run USBCHA. We just happen to be moving up to the Pro-Novice level in a few months, and should do very well. Some dogs can run all venues, and I happen to own one of them. We have ABCA registered dogs, and will probably run them in all the different venues as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Border Colliez, Is your AKC registerd border collie conformation bred or just registered with AKC? I have seen few if any strictly conformation-bred dogs running at the higher levels in USBCHA trials, but can't say the same for dual registered dogs from working lines. If your dog is conformation bred, well, then, yes, you must have one of those rare gems that can do it all. And it wouldn't surprise me in the least for your (presumably) working bred ABCA registered dogs to be able to do well in all venues--after all, most of the "other" venues have far less stringent requirements for success than USBCHA does. Joe Anne, Have fun at Susan's! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccnnc Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 border colliez said.... "Well, I guess my AKC registered BC must be one of those few and far between dogs that can also run USBCHA. We just happen to be moving up to the Pro-Novice level in a few months" Just for the record, only Open and Nursery classes are USBCHA -- or ISDS, for that matter. The junior classes are NOT sanctioned by the USBCHA, rather they are "sanctioned" by the trial host or regional organizations such as VBCA for their annual awards. It's always a chuckle to see someone brag about USBCHA or ISDS placements and then learn it was a novice course. But, HEY!!!!! If you do well, CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!! Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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