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Help! Struggling with consistency with biting/crazy behaviour with our pup


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Hey all,

Have read many helpful posts on this forum, hoping to draw on your collective wisdom.

We've got a 10 week old BC pup and he's doing pretty well in picking up the training we've been giving him, potty training, and sleeping through the night. 

One thing that me and his mom are really struggling with is consistency in what to do when he bites us (relatively frequently) or starts barking and tearing around the house (a couple of times a day). 

We've only had him for a couple of weeks, so we're still trying to get into our groove, but yelping/'No!'/'Ouch!' only seems to make the biting-our-hands-and-legs game more fun, and doesn't indicate to him that play has stopped. 

It's the same thing when he goes crazy and starts tearing around the house barking at us/his food/the wall etc. 

Now, we have an X-Pen and a crate, and we've both read books by Patricia McConnell and Ian Dunbar to get on the same page with the pup's training, but we're really struggling with consistency. I think both of us feel like we don't want to make pen/crate = punishment, but at the same time, all of our other attempts at correction (misdirection with a toy, attempting to end the play session by not engaging, trying some training) just aren't working at all. 

I suppose the crux of the issue is we seem to have created a situation where he's conditioning us more than we're conditioning him. He's our dog so we want to teach him that 'gentle play is fun' and 'crazy time is for outside, not inside', but we're both gun-shy in actually following through with any negative consequences (IE: you bit me, time for some alone time in your crate or pen). 

So, my question: are we going to mess up his tiny little puppy brain by being more stern with him? I'm not talking about physical corrections or yelling at him, but just being really consistent in 'you play by our rules, and when you don't, you don't get to play anymore.' We're really aware that he's very young and can only understand so much, but I think we've both read so much about positive re-enforcement and positive training that anything that feels 'negative' is really hard for us to do because we tie ourselves in knots about long term repercussions. 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thanks so much for reading

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/25/2020 at 7:32 PM, MangledHands said:

just being really consistent in 'you play by our rules, and when you don't, you don't get to play anymore.'

This. The above response is not by any means being too harsh, and is the appropriate way to go with this. If you feel he is training you more than you are training him, you have to change this and do so today.  While I am a positive reinforcement trainer to the core, that doesn't mean that I think there should never be consequences for behavior that is unacceptable. Biting is always unacceptable! He needs to learn, early and solidly, that to bite any person for any reason is strictly forbidden. 

Using the crate as a training tool doesn't mean using it for punishment. When a human child gets over tired or over excited and starts to behave badly, you don't punish the kid, you put her down for a nap. That's what you do with a puppy. If you have an attitude of punishment when you put the puppy in the crate for a time out, then the puppy will associate the crate with punishment. Not what you want. but it's all in your attitude. Don't think of it as a punishment, just think of it as a little time out so that your pup can calm down. 

I recommend people use the phrase "Uh-Oh!" because it's really hard to say that in a mean or angry way. Just say it in a nice tone of voice, and then gently but firmly put the pup into the crate for a 5 minute time out. If the pup comes out and bites again, repeat. If 5 minutes is not enough, make it longer. But remember always that you want to have the attitude that these are simply consequences, like an act of nature. Dog bite=crate time and no play for a while. Seriously, treat it like a natural law of consequence like gravity. If you approach it with the right tone, body language, and internal attitude, your dog won't start to hate the crate.

And no you won't mess up his tender brain by being firm with him when firmness is called for. If you don't curb the biting activity, that is what would be mean to the dog, because if he bit someone as an adult dog it could mean his death. Gentle but very firm correction now is the way to go. And you mention consistency is hard for you. Change that. You truly must be 100% (I really mean 100%) consistent with his training and the corrections you make. If you aren't, then don't bother trying to train him at all because if you allow him to get away with something you don't like even one time in 50, he will remember that and figure if he just does it enough times he'll get away with it.  :-)

 

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I'm no expert, but having a 15-week-old BC pup has given me some insight into what you're going through.  With regard to the biting, my guy was just like yours at 10 weeks.  I try to have something appropriate for him to bite on me at all times (like a short segment of rope, a small stick, etc...)  When he bites, I give a very unambiguous "NO!" and then immediately put the chew toy near his mouth.  He'll bite the chew toy and I'll immediately encourage play and give him praise.  Being consistent with this has substantially reduced him biting on us humans.  I do, however, need to remind myself how young my guy is and that mistakes will be made.  It's our job to stick with it.  

 

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Hey all,

Thanks again for the kind words and the help - it's made a real difference to our little fellow and even in this short time his shark mouth has improved drastically!

We've come across another issue that we're just completely stumped on and would love some input to.

Controlling biting and crazy behaviour with an 'uh oh!' and placing him in his pen is easy enough to do consistently in the home, but we're very concious of the advice to try and expose him to different places and people in his early life (again, going off McConnell and Dunbar's work, as we're certainly not experts).

However... I can really see what people mean on these boards when they talk about 'Tasmanian Devil Mode'. Unlike many here, I come from Tasmania, and have seen real Tasmanian devils in a frenzy... that's what he's like in certain situations outside of the home, and we just have no idea what to do about it. Biting us, jumping on new people, becoming completely deaf to i) his name, ii) commands that he's learned, iii) the concept of treats and rewards. He just goes insane.

I'm sure some of the new environments are incredibly overstimulating for a young doggy mind, so we try and do it gradually, but it's very hard to know what to do when we physically can't pick him up and put him in a time out.

 

So, we've discussed things such as 'maybe he's just not ready to leave the house yet' or 'maybe we should take his crate everywhere we're introducing him to, in order to be able to enforce the time out', but we're really stuck as to where to proceed from here. 'Bubble dog', where he doesn't leave his house until he's ready (how do we judge that?), or mobile-crate-dog, where - in order to stop the manic jumping, spinnning and biting, we take somewhere quiet and familiar with him to help him calm down. 

 

Both options might be stupid - we have no idea - but any wisdom or suggestions about introducing him to the outside world and new places/people would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again BC Boards Crew! You guys are the best!

 

PS Let me know if you'd like to see any photos of him

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Your puppy should be under your control enough that he never gets close enough to another person to jump on them, if jumping is his habit. If he has a Sit, then have him sit if people are approaching. With the Pandemic, getting that close to others is a bad idea for your own health, so have him on a fairly short leash and have him sit out of the way and enforce the sit and for every second that he is calm, reinforce it with treats/praise. Ask strangers not to approach.

If he is freaking out the way you describe, then he is being overstimulated in the new places you are taking him, and I would suggest working very hard on calming routines and a "settle" cue and a good Sit while you are at home, and only taking him gradually to other places. Take him in the car if you have one, and let him out in the new environment.  Make the visit to the new environment very short. Five minutes tops, then  even if he is being really good it's back to the car and home again, with praise and treats of course. As long as he is exploring calmly during that time, he gets lots of positive reinforcement. The minute you see the body-language signs that he is approaching the Tasmanian devil stage, he gets popped back into the car, and told to settle. Do make certain you do all of this very kindly so he never associates seeing the new place or people with any kind of punishment - that's the last thing you want. Think of it more as, OK, that seems to be all you can take for today, and that's OK, we'll just go home again and play there. 

Also work hard yourself on observing him so that you will learn all the signals he gives (they are there, believe me) to indicate that he is reaching that freak-out point. It's a lot better to take him out of the environment and get him calmed down before he goes into devil phase that to wait until he's full-blown Tasmanian and then try to get him calmed down. I always spend the first several weeks observing a new dog intensely to learn his or her habits and language. This observation never stops, actually, as I find my dogs and their relationships to each other, to me, and to the world ever fascinating. For you at this stage that observing and learning on your part is critical.

BTW......You are from Tasmania! A place I always wanted to visit and still hope to, one day when we can all travel again. I hope. To me, Tasmania sounds very exotic. :)

And............we always want photos!

 

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Hello!! I have also been struggling a lot with my 15 week old Puppy biting (it started getting rough), up until this week actually! We tried the helping and the redirecting to a toy and those didn't work.

One of the tips they gave me in this forum was to put him in a time out in his kennel/crate, NOT as punishment though! Niko is pretty used to his kennel now, as we always feed him in there (door is always open) and sometimes play crate games, throw a ball in there or hide a toy/treat for him to find.

Whenever Niko starts biting and growling I try to get him to sit/down, and say in the most calm voice I can "looks like you must be tired and in need of a time out, let's go to kennel" he immediately stops biting and slowly releases the bite, then we get him inside the kennel. There is absolutely no whining, he instantly sits or lies down, we let him chill for a little and once we see he has calmed down, we let him out. 

Other thing that's worked for us is working with 'place'. When he starts biting I say very calmly "Niko, place" and he slowly goes to his place and lies down, he stays for no more than 30 seconds but i feel it resets his behavior! 

We started with this method about a week ago, and i have noticed we are having less of these moments.

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7 hours ago, D'Elle said:

Your puppy should be under your control enough that he never gets close enough to another person to jump on them, if jumping is his habit. If he has a Sit, then have him sit if people are approaching. With the Pandemic, getting that close to others is a bad idea for your own health, so have him on a fairly short leash and have him sit out of the way and enforce the sit and for every second that he is calm, reinforce it with treats/praise. Ask strangers not to approach.

If he is freaking out the way you describe, then he is being overstimulated in the new places you are taking him, and I would suggest working very hard on calming routines and a "settle" cue and a good Sit while you are at home, and only taking him gradually to other places. Take him in the car if you have one, and let him out in the new environment.  Make the visit to the new environment very short. Five minutes tops, then  even if he is being really good it's back to the car and home again, with praise and treats of course. As long as he is exploring calmly during that time, he gets lots of positive reinforcement. The minute you see the body-language signs that he is approaching the Tasmanian devil stage, he gets popped back into the car, and told to settle. Do make certain you do all of this very kindly so he never associates seeing the new place or people with any kind of punishment - that's the last thing you want. Think of it more as, OK, that seems to be all you can take for today, and that's OK, we'll just go home again and play there. 

Also work hard yourself on observing him so that you will learn all the signals he gives (they are there, believe me) to indicate that he is reaching that freak-out point. It's a lot better to take him out of the environment and get him calmed down before he goes into devil phase that to wait until he's full-blown Tasmanian and then try to get him calmed down. I always spend the first several weeks observing a new dog intensely to learn his or her habits and language. This observation never stops, actually, as I find my dogs and their relationships to each other, to me, and to the world ever fascinating. For you at this stage that observing and learning on your part is critical.

BTW......You are from Tasmania! A place I always wanted to visit and still hope to, one day when we can all travel again. I hope. To me, Tasmania sounds very exotic. :)

And............we always want photos!

 

Hey D'Elle,

Thanks so much for your (again) extremely helpful advice, that's given us a lot to work with. In regards to Covid, as we're in Australia, we still do take precautions but we achieved suppression a while ago, especially in our city, so our health (and his) are pretty well risk managed :)

We've been doing some very preliminary work on a gentle settle (in fact, it's something that was covered briefly in our training class last night), but... well.. we have a long way to go. I think in hindsight, certainly based on what you've said and based on re-examining the situations we were putting him into, I'd describe what we've been doing as setting him up for failure. He will unfailiningly sit at home, and has started doing that as his default behaviour when he's following us around, but as soon as there are new, exciting things, we may as well be talking to/cueing a brick wall. 

 

I think my key takeaways if I've understood you correctly are:

1. Build on the foundations at home to help him cope with the big, wide, distracting world. 

2. Duration. Five minutes is the maximum, we've definitely been doing longer than that, so no wonder he's been going absolutely nuts. Thinking of it in line with 'OK, that seems to be all you can take for today, and that's OK, we'll just go home again and play there' is an extremely helpful way of reframing our thinking so it's not 'oh no, we've failed, he's not listening to us' and more in line with 'well, we're just working with the dog that we have, and we need to learn his limits better.'

3. And in line with learning about him, we really need to be more observant about the signals he's giving us that he's getting overstimulated/is about to turn into a blur of teeth and fur. We've been able to (roughly) nail down a time, which is around 6-7pm, but it does happen at other times throughout the day too, so observing his behavioural patterns and finding his habits and language is the top priority. 

 

I suppose there is no 'best' way to teach a settle, because every dog is different, but what we've tried so far definitely doesn't seem to be being learned as fast as his Sit/Down. We've been rewarding him with treats when he is calm/settled to try and show him that it's a good thing to do, but I think the mistake we've been making is trying to 'capture' that settled behaviour as opposed to 'shaping' a settle, which I'm not really sure how to do. 

 

Would I be on the right track if I was to get him to come and lie on his mat, give the word 'settle', and mark it/treat when he is relaxed and at ease? I suppose what I'm grappling with is (as an amateur) it's way easier to see when to mark and reward the sit (butt hits the ground) or the down than to figure out how to go about constructing a settle training routine. Any advice anyone has would be really awesome. 

 

Tasmania is a lovely place, certainly my favourite place in the world! I really do hope you get to come and visit - I missed Arizona last time I was in the states, but I am absolutely desperate to see Monument Valley and visit the Heard Museum in Phoenix. 

 

Here's a couple of photos of the young lad - despite the odd issue here and there, he's a very, very gentle and intelligent dog, and every day is a new learning adventure :) 

unnamed (1).jpg

unnamed.jpg

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Gentle settle ---- Yes.

Remember always that you are working with a baby dog. A baby cannot learn everything at the pace that an already=trained adult can. Every dog is different, so your baby dog will learn at his own pace and if something is not working yet it doesn't mean you are a failure, it means you need more patience and work. If you have been thinking "failure" when he doesn't get what you want, that has been translating to the dog, guaranteed. He's feeling your sense of failure and frustration and taking that into his own mind and it is making him just that much more likely to go over-the-top.  So remember he's a baby, and enjoy this process of getting to know him and train him to learn his first things, because this time will pass and you want to look back on it fondly.

1. Yes, Build at home. Once something is really solid at home, introduce just one small distraction. Then build on that. Most dogs, even well trained adults, find it hard to focus on learning when there are distractions. I do Musical Canine Freestyle, and the dogs in my group are all beautifully trained to do many different things on cue on top of all the usual obedience things. But even with those dogs, who know all about learning from us and how to understand what we want, none of us would even consider teaching a new cue to a dog outside somewhere that there are lots of distractions! It wouldn't be fair.

It would be like asking someone to listen to you relay a complicated set of directions while there's a television blaring,  a radio talk show on, several people discussing something right next to you, and a guy playing the trombone in the next room.  This is not exaggeration, considering that most of the distraction is in the form of about a thousand smells you cannot detect. Everything gets trained at home, without anyone else present, and when it's really solid we take it out of the house but only to a place where distraction in minimal, and build up from there.

2. sounds good.

3. Yes.

 

21 hours ago, MangledHands said:

Would I be on the right track if I was to get him to come and lie on his mat, give the word 'settle', and mark it/treat when he is relaxed and at ease? I suppose what I'm grappling with is (as an amateur) it's way easier to see when to mark and reward the sit (butt hits the ground) or the down than to figure out how to go about constructing a settle training routine.

You can do both. It's always good to mark and reward good behavior when it appears spontaneously. But also doing deliberate training on the settle-mat is very helpful. I would probably do it at least three times a day, but each time only asking for the settle once. If he settles, and stays down for even two or three seconds, big praise and reward. Then ask again later in the day. Etc.

 I like to use that classic border collie phrase "That'll do" when something needs to stop. (use whatever you want, of course, just say it nicely). Then, if the behavior doesn't stop, I may (or may not) repeat that to give the pup another chance, but if the second time doesn't do it, then I say "Uh-Oh!" and that means crate time-out.  After a while, "that'll do" is enough. 

Sure is a pretty little boy. You are working very hard to do right by him and train him in the right way and you deserve a lot of credit for that. So, here's a treat. :D

 

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Thank you so much with your extremely helpful advice, D'Elle. I think the most helpful part for us about your post was not blaming ourselves for 'failing' and feeling like we're letting him down. We've really taken on a much more positive attitude in regards to his training, and, as you say, I reckon he's picked up on it.

It's not that before that we'd yell or cry or curse if we felt we weren't getting something right, but he's not a dummy, and I've noticed a real difference in staying positive no matter what (sometimes difficult to do... still, it works!) 

In regards to practical things we've changed up since reading your advice:

1. As far as the Tasmanian Devil goes, we've completely changed how we view taking him outside of his comfort zone and monitoring his overload levels. I think we read so much about 'he has to see lots of places and meet lots of people by the time he's [x] months old' (not through Dr Google, but in reputable books) that we were definitely pushing him too hard, too soon.

Instead of a 15 minute walk around the block and letting every stranger interact with him, for example, I just took him for a five minute walk down the street, monitoring his concentration and his levels of stimulation. When it was getting to the point where he was no longer making eye contact/responding to his name, well, that's good progress for today, let's head home and end it on a positive note. I've also started politely telling strangers who want to play with him 'sorry, no, we're training at the moment' if he's not calm or settled, and I think that's really helped with the 'EVERY PERSON WE MEET IS EXTREMELY EXCITING!' issue we were dealing with. 

Also, as far as the extreme examples of the Tasmanian Devil are concerned, we're starting to be able to read the signs before there's a whirlwind. The most common one is, weirdly, him needing to wee or poo later in the evening (even if he's just been), but even noticing that pattern and what to look out for before he's running into walls and impossible to leash has paid off big time.

2. We've also had a lot of great success with starting to teach him 'bed' and 'chill' (instead of 'place' and 'settle' - these words just worked better for him :)). I think the 'gentle settle' is probably more of a lifestyle thing that's acquired with age than something that can be taught to an infant. But as you say, at least practicing it with him three or four times a day (and reenforcing that feeling that being on his bed and chilling out are good) is helping. From what I can see, it's one brick in the foundation for allowing him to have that calm, gentle and settled nature later in life. 

I'm learning so much every day that we work with him and I'm very thankful for your advice, and to all of the members here. Most of the training I do is while volunteering at our state-run shelter, and the dogs and puppies there all have their own little quirks and behavioural issues from their (mostly) negative pasts. Trying to train a dog from day 1 to have a happy home, some nice boundaries, and a contented life sure is a different challenge to that - but a good one!

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Sounds good. Keep up the good work. :-)

Just remember always that your p up is a baby and babies need for the world to be safe, positive, and loving. They need to be sure they can trust that their caretakers will keep them safe, help them to learn, be there for them and love them. 

Everyone can get frustrated. I never, ever start a training session if I am in a bad mood,  tired, or feeling frustrated with my life, or am in any way not feeling positive. And if I start to get frustrated, even the tiniest bit,  I stop immediately, praise my dog, and give the dog a nice happy ending with a biscuit. I learned this the hard way, many years ago, when I would stop the session in a state of frustration or disappointment, and then find that my dog didn't want to work with me the next time, or showed anxiety. Your dog wants to work with you. But if there is negativity, it can make the dog afraid to try again.

Just for fun, here's a really clear example. I was teaching my dog to jump through my arms held like a hoop. He was doing OK, but then one time he jumped crooked and didn't make it through my arms. He looked at me, knowing that he didn't do what was wanted, and there was a little anxiety in his eyes. I petted and praised him like crazy and gave him extra treats. Then I asked him to do it again, and this time I moved my arms so that I was certain that no matter how he jumped, he'd go through. And he did, and I praised him to the skies, gave a bonus number of treats, and we ended the session on that happy note. He never once showed any anxiety about doing that move again, because he know that no matter what it would be OK. He had nothing to lose,  would always succeed, so he felt bold and unafraid. Had he sensed frustration or unhappiness in me, he might not have ever wanted to try again.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

Just for fun, here's a really clear example. I was teaching my dog to jump through my arms held like a hoop. He was doing OK, but then one time he jumped crooked and didn't make it through my arms. He looked at me, knowing that he didn't do what was wanted, and there was a little anxiety in his eyes. I petted and praised him like crazy and gave him extra treats. Then I asked him to do it again, and this time I moved my arms so that I was certain that no matter how he jumped, he'd go through. And he did, and I praised him to the skies, gave a bonus number of treats, and we ended the session on that happy note. He never once showed any anxiety about doing that move again, because he know that no matter what it would be OK. He had nothing to lose,  would always succeed, so he felt bold and unafraid. Had he sensed frustration or unhappiness in me, he might not have ever wanted to try again.

 

 

D'Elle,

I call those "screw-up cookies".  LOL    My dogs get screw-up cookies. 

If they have given an honest try, but it didn't work out -> screw-up cookie.

If momma made a mistake (wrong command, late cue in agility) -> screw-up cookie

Just for the heck of it, or because you love them, or they are extra cute right then -> screw-up cookie

It can really motivate a dog.  (and yes, I also withhold treats when training as appropriate, but an extra treat or a few, are not going to mess up the dog.)

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23 hours ago, gcv-border said:

D'Elle,

I call those "screw-up cookies".  LOL    My dogs get screw-up cookies. 

If they have given an honest try, but it didn't work out -> screw-up cookie.

If momma made a mistake (wrong command, late cue in agility) -> screw-up cookie

Just for the heck of it, or because you love them, or they are extra cute right then -> screw-up cookie

It can really motivate a dog.  (and yes, I also withhold treats when training as appropriate, but an extra treat or a few, are not going to mess up the dog.)

You and I are on the same page here. :D I try to make all training even the basics, fun for the dog and fun for me.

I think I get as much fun out of giving the extra treats and praise as they do getting them! My dogs, if they are capable of such a thing, think they are the best dogs ever to live, because that is how I treat them.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hey D'Elle,

 

Just wanted to provide an update. We've implemented all of your recommendations regarding biting/crazy time and he is doing so much better, and we are so more confident in the way we interact with him and in our training. Thank you so much for your advice, it was an absolute godsend.

 

To anyone who ends up here from google, I'd highly recommend implementing everything discussed above if you're encountering similar issues! 

 

Merry Christmas!

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  • 5 weeks later...
On 11/3/2020 at 9:08 PM, D'Elle said:

This. The above response is not by any means being too harsh, and is the appropriate way to go with this. If you feel he is training you more than you are training him, you have to change this and do so today.  While I am a positive reinforcement trainer to the core, that doesn't mean that I think there should never be consequences for behavior that is unacceptable. Biting is always unacceptable! He needs to learn, early and solidly, that to bite any person for any reason is strictly forbidden. 

Using the crate as a training tool doesn't mean using it for punishment. When a human child gets over tired or over excited and starts to behave badly, you don't punish the kid, you put her down for a nap. That's what you do with a puppy. If you have an attitude of punishment when you put the puppy in the crate for a time out, then the puppy will associate the crate with punishment. Not what you want. but it's all in your attitude. Don't think of it as a punishment, just think of it as a little time out so that your pup can calm down. 

I recommend people use the phrase "Uh-Oh!" because it's really hard to say that in a mean or angry way. Just say it in a nice tone of voice, and then gently but firmly put the pup into the crate for a 5 minute time out. If the pup comes out and bites again, repeat. If 5 minutes is not enough, make it longer. But remember always that you want to have the attitude that these are simply consequences, like an act of nature. Dog bite=crate time and no play for a while. Seriously, treat it like a natural law of consequence like gravity. If you approach it with the right tone, body language, and internal attitude, your dog won't start to hate the crate.

And no you won't mess up his tender brain by being firm with him when firmness is called for. If you don't curb the biting activity, that is what would be mean to the dog, because if he bit someone as an adult dog it could mean his death. Gentle but very firm correction now is the way to go. And you mention consistency is hard for you. Change that. You truly must be 100% (I really mean 100%) consistent with his training and the corrections you make. If you aren't, then don't bother trying to train him at all because if you allow him to get away with something you don't like even one time in 50, he will remember that and figure if he just does it enough times he'll get away with it.  :-)

 

Hello there! I also have an 8 weeks old Border Collie pup, and i am applying the time out technique, but thing is i live at an apartment and got neighbours. So when i lock him in the bathroom (i don't have a dog cage) he starts crying. So i can only lock him during the day, because if i locked him during the night he would wake up everyone in the whole building. I ussualy wait at the door until he stops crying and only then i will unlock him as i don't want him to know i'm responding to his cries. My question is, if i do this more constantly will he stop crying and accept his time out, or should i get him a cage and lock him in it in the same room with me? Thanks :)

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