results of raw feeding

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Well, Nell is in the same boat with my children who think that if mommy remembers to go to the store and buy milk, butter, bread, and eggs...in other words the nutritional staples it is a very good day! For Nellie this translates into the woman managing to remember to ask an experienced border collie trainer about the best food then finding that food and then remembering to buy the food,then remembering to put the food in a bowl at least once a day; given such a set of circumstances, for Nell, it's a great day.

 

A friend of mine told me about a book she read that talked about "Good Enough" parenting. In my case, the book would need a chapter on good enough feeding. If a dog has special needs then "good enough" changes, doesn't it? Until otherwise indicated, Nell is much safer eating Nutro than counting on me to plan her diet.

[sunnyrocks]

I think I am sorry I started this thread. I was only trying to tell people MY results of raw feeding and that it is a good thing. I personally am very grateful to this board because this is where I first heard about it.

 

If you want to try it, try it, if not, don't. Period.

[MrSnappy]

Wow, get busy at work and miss all sorts of fun.

 

Well, let's clear one thing up - I don't speak for Sue Barta.

 

Originally posted by J.E.S:

RDM - " I do find it strange that people hang on to kibble though, given kibble is nothing more than a fake food."

It IS a fake food, just like any fake food that we eat (spray cheese comes to mind). Given that dogs have survived and even thrived *without* kibble for ages, I am amazed that dog owners are utterly convinced that kibble is the be all end all of doggie nutrition - raw food discussion totally aside - it's an observation on the nature of the evolution of dog care and values. It was an observation in a discussion, and you can stop throwing it up as an example of my underground dogs-fed-kibble liberation army activities anytime now, because I've explained it away already.

 

MrSnappy - "I don't need my dogs to be dying before I decide I want to feed them the healthiest diet within my means."

Now here is an example of a quote that actually is taken out of context. That was in direct reply to a comment by, I think Eileen, that said if she had a dog that was dying she might switch to a raw diet (presumably in a last ditch effort to try anything). My reply to that is that I choose to feed the diet, and not because my dogs are dying - it's not a last ditch effort to me, it's simply the diet I choose to feed.

 

But I don't like the insinuations that if I am not feeding the raw diet that I am somehow not giving my dog the best.

JES.

Just like my meat-eating acquaintences felt that the very ACT of me being a vegetarian was somehow an insinuation that they weren't eating healthy. It was not. If you stay on the defensive, you'll be able to find all sorts of insults. I don't know if Sue was trying to insult you or not... I sure wasn't. And guess what - I'm still not angry either!

 

Eileen wrote:

RDM, FWIW your posts sound pretty angry to me.

It's not worth much, frankly. I can tell you I'm not angry until I am blue in the face but if it's what you want to see/hear/read/assign to me, I can't stop you. So go ahead and assume I'm angry if you like. It's ridiculous, but go ahead.

 

I'll reply. No, I don't believe the company is governed by an altruistic interest in my dogs' welfare, or the well-being of my husband's chin or my laundry. But I believe it's in their corporate interests to make good quality dog food, good quality razor blades and good quality laundry detergent, because doing so is likely to increase sales and decrease complaints.

Then you have more faith in corporations that I do. I think it's in their corporate interests to make the most amount of money off of their products as they can, and that means staying within guidelines as narrowly as possible.

 

Did you remember a few years agon when it was discovered that Extra Strength Excedrin and Super Strength Excedrin (obviously I am paraphrasing and it may have even been another pain reliever) were discovered to be the EXACT SAME PRODUCT and it turned out product labelling laws made it okay to package the same product as two different products and charge more for one than the other? My faith in corporate honestly is pretty slim. I think that most dog foods - and there are a few out there that I would feed if I wasn't feeding raw - are created with the bottom line as the prime motivating factor.

 

FWIW, to borrow a phrase, I used to work for a kibble company. If it pleases you, I have some idea of what the motivating factors in their production are. Your dog's health is NOT one of them (nor are quality ingredients). Given the nature of the discussion that has taken place here, and what is demonstrably a lack of formal knowledge of what constitutes "proper" or "good" nutrition in anyone (dog or human) means that dog food companies don't feel they have to be accountable for much. And quite honestly, they do not.

 

Here is another reason I don't feed kibble: http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79

 

 

I am also still waiting for that independent study of the nutritional value of kibble, one not funded by or undertaken by any of the major dog food manufacturers. I expect I will be waiting as long as you are for the definitive study about raw diets.

 

RDM

[sunnyrocks]

Good for you MrSnappy!!! That is a great post!!!

[UpNatEm]

Great link Mr.Snappy.Now there is data and not just testamonial.It's all about educating and learnng what really goes on behind the warehouse doors.Reminds me of this new show on Showtime on Friday nights called Bullshit by Penn and Teller.They take something everyday that people fall for due to advertisement.The fancy bottled water skit was great.

LOL,like for $3/bottle do you really know what is going in that bottle and they take the major companies with their fancy labels and really show you.

 

Sue Barta

[mandiefurniss]

Very interesting reading RDM,I have saved this and will read it when my eyes aren't bugging out of my head from lack of sleep. Thanks for supplying us with the link.

Mandie

[Margaret M Wheeler]

Oh and I do have something substantive to say about raw diets. My terrier buddy Tanja feeds raw foods. We used to travel many, many miles together in an SUV packed to the rafter with rotten little white dogs.

 

When her dogs are eating "raw" their farts are the absolute most godawful, eyewatering, gagging stinkiest farts I have smelled in my long association with dog farts, husband farts, horse farts, etc. (What a resume huh? Will it get me a job at microsoft ya think?)

 

So, whatever its benefits to the dogs, I'm thinking BARF should undergo some policy making by the EPA as a threat to air quality, and certainly something to consider if you drive any distance with your dogs in a closed car.

[Suelee Robbe-Austerman]

I am just a little curious, for those of you doing raw feeding. Have you considered the risk of infectious agents? Do any of you know the likelihood of raw poultry products carrying salmonella? What do you do for quality control?

 

DO you think about how poultry is processed? If one bird is shedding salmonella it can contaminate a large number of carcasses that it mixes with. I am not particularly worried about the dog getting sick from salmonella. That certainly can occur; I am more concerned about the dog getting infected then shedding the salmonella he gets from eating raw uncooked products. That probably won?t make most of you sick, but what about the family member that is on chemotherapy or that has an organ transplant or HIV?

 

Do any of you feed raw diets and then take your pets into nursing home with all those highly susceptible individuals?

 

Many of you made jokes about feeding raw lamb. Do you know about hydatid cysts? In some counties it is illegal to feed dogs raw lamb for this very reason.

 

 

I am not against raw feeding. If a person has a dog with health problems and wants to make an attempt to change its diet, more power to them. But you all who are strongly recommending this way of feeding and then claim that the veterinarians who don?t support your view are wrong and don?t understand the benefits just might not be aware of the whole picture.

 

Cooking food has had drastic positive benefits to the health of the human race. There are diseases we have virtually eliminated by just cooking meat products we eat. Dogs are different; there is no question about that. But just because they don?t get sick from the campylobacter, salmonella, listeria, E. coli etc... , doesn?t mean they don?t shed these organisms in their feces, and those organisms them can disseminate easily in the environment where they live.

 

Again, let me say I am not against raw feeding per say, but everyone so far that has asked me what I think about raw feeding is completely unaware about the potential disease risks. If they are unaware, then they are probably not taking certain steps to reduce those risks.

 

At least with processed dog food, there are quality assurance programs in place and testing mechanisms to reduce the liklihood of transmitting an infectious agent through their dog food.

[Suelee Robbe-Austerman]

Oh and PS, the standard disclaimer that I am not a dog vet applies. But in the ethics of veterinary medicine, I think even dog vets should hold human heath and well being first and the health and well being of pets second.

[Northof49]

I am just a little curious, for those of you doing raw feeding. Have you considered the risk of infectious agents? Do any of you know the likelihood of raw poultry products carrying salmonella? What do you do for quality control?

_________________________________________________

 

Personally, I have not been able to find any instances of salmonella, etc. poisoning in humans as a result of feeding dogs a raw diet. Where I live, even suspected cases must be reported to the health authority. Contacting as many people as I could think of in my area working in this related field and having them look up data, I was not able to confirm any documented cases, suspected or confirmed that arose from feeding dogs raw meat. The majority of cases come from outbreaks in restautants. I know there was a huge recall of cantelope with respect to salmonella as well as tons of hamburger.

 

AND cooked meats are more of a source of bacterial contamination than raw - such as processed meats like summer sausage, bologna, etc.

 

I know on one list that I was one there was one person that had to have oral and rectal swabs done on their dogs because they did pet therapy and were fed a raw diet. Those swabs always came back negative, no matter when the swabs were taken.

 

I prepare my dogs raw food the same way I prepare my own - no difference. I haven't managed to kill off my family in 45 years by preparing tons of raw food for them, and I don't think just because my kids are now canine instead of human that the risks are any different.

 

Yes, you have to keep counters clean, etc. etc. but I feel this is really used as a scare tactic by vets, etc.

[sea4th]

Also having done therapy work with my dogs (although at the time, I wasn't feeding raw), if contamination was an issue, then it should be taken into consideration that real dogs eat cr-p and lick their gonads and as well as parts of other dogs' anatomies--but that's another subject. We're shortly being tested back into a therapy program with 2 of my dogs, one who is fed raw, one who is not. Oh, BTW, it was against policy to allow the dog's to lick while on duty.

 

Re: passing gas--the ones I feed raw, don't and their BM's have little odor, compared to the ones I feed a quality kibble to. Even then, you can see a difference in what comes out.

 

Vicki

[UpNatEm]

I don't worry about Salmonella or E Coli here for several reasons.I purchase my meat from a major meat producer who supplies all the meat markets in the Twin Cities and then some.So obviously because this stuff is the same stuff going to my local meat market it is USDA inspected.Meat in your major food chain stores or fast food restaurants is of lesser quality and that is why periodically you'll hear on the news about a Salmonella or E Coli outbreak.On raw we always tell newbies to get in the habit of getting meat from the meat market-not the grocery store.Another thing-how many times have you handled raw chicken or beef just to prepare yourself for your family?-Don't we always wash our hands or counters anyways? With dogs,their digestive system on raw is differant and faster so we don't worry about bugs accumalating.As far as shedding bugs in stools?-Because the diet produces very very small claylike poops I know many of us don't need to clean up the yard and since when do you handle it with bare hands anyways.?

Don't get me wrong-the belief or fear of Salmonella and E Coli amongst inquisitive ones is very common but not found really.Look at it this way-on kibble the dog doesn't digest the grais and they just sit in the gut for hours and hours and then get pooped out in a big soft mass.On raw, the food is digested in the system alot faster so less comes out.

 

Sue Barta