tamapup Posted March 11, 2019 Report Posted March 11, 2019 Tama is now 5 month old and growing and learning lots. A lot of these "behavior issues" simply come from him being a puppy - such as pulling on the leash and jumping on people with excitement. Now, I'm not giving him a pass just because he's a puppy...just saying that these are behavior issues that are quite common for this age, and with some training, I'm confident we'll get past them. That said, I would love your advice on how to address them. Firstly, he is very, VERY into jumping on people. He is okay about it at home, but when we're outside meeting new people, he cannot contain his excitement and leaps up towards people. Every time that he jumps up on me, I simply ignore him and turn away. When he jumps up on other people, he's wearing a harness, so it's easy to prevent him or pull him off. Doesn't stop him from trying every. single. time. On another note, any ideas on how to address this with humans? We were at the dog park just now, and Tama jumped up on this man to say hello. Of course, what I do every time is come up to the person, pull Tama off immediately and say "no", then turn to the person and say "I'm sorry about that, he's a puppy, we're working on it". Most people are very understanding and give him a pet. Nonetheless I get some very dirty looks from some people - this man included. My instinctive reaction, which I don't vocalize, is to say that if you're coming to the dog park on a muddy spring day, maybe don't wear your fancy breeches. Aside from that, recently I've observed a very strange barking reaction from him, which I hadn't seen before. When we walk down the street or through the park, Tama LOVES people and tries to say hello to everyone. However, a few days ago we were sitting down on a bench, and suddenly the people passing by made Tama try to run towards them, barking loudly and in a low, menacing kind of voice, as though protecting our "area". Any ideas about what this is about, and how to stop it? He has also gotten much more barky at home, and starts barking at every "suspicious" sound. I'd really like to stop this... my temporary solution is to pick him up and put him in his crate every time he does it, but I'm not so sure. Lastly, the way that Tama plays with other dogs in the park - I'm not sure if it's something I should leave be, or try to correct. I take him to the dog park almost daily, because I feel like it's the best way to teach him how to socialize with other dogs. Firstly I'll say that he has NEVER attempted to be aggressive with another dog, and has NEVER bitten any dog (or human of course). However, he does tend to be quite dominant with dogs, and very protective over his balls and sticks that he plays with. Today, there was a dog (bigger than him) who attempted to steal a large stick away from him. Tama's reaction was to pin this dog down on the ground (who happened to be quite submissive) and hold him there, snarling and growling and baring his teeth quite vocally. No biting. Just showing dominance. The dog's owner came running over and was quite unhappy, understandably. However - Tama wasn't hurting this dog... How should I deal with this? My worry here is not Tama hurting a dog, but my worry is that he will snap at the wrong dog and trigger a reaction and perhaps get very hurt himself. Something like this happened once, when a large dog came and took away Tama's ball, and he snapped at him, and then the large dog snapped back and actually got quite aggressive. Thankfully the other owner was right there and pulled him off immediately, so no one was really hurt. It was a scary incident, and I wouldn't want it to happen again... but simply avoiding dog parks altogether doesn't sound like it would fix the problem. Dog parks are the only way for us to get Tama to run around off leash in an enclosed space, while socializing with dogs of all breeds and all ages. Advice? Quote
jami74 Posted March 11, 2019 Report Posted March 11, 2019 1 hour ago, tamapup said: Firstly, he is very, VERY into jumping on people. He is okay about it at home, but when we're outside meeting new people, he cannot contain his excitement and leaps up towards people. Every time that he jumps up on me, I simply ignore him and turn away. When he jumps up on other people, he's wearing a harness, so it's easy to prevent him or pull him off. Doesn't stop him from trying every. single. time. On another note, any ideas on how to address this with humans? What I have found helps is to practice the behaviour you want with someone who he knows. If you have a friend or family member that is willing to help then go outside and pretend that your helper is a stranger and practice. Get your helper to turn away and ignore until he is sitting and then when he is he gets a quick greeting. I found with our boy it was almost like we had to actually spell out the behaviour we did want, using people we knew so it wasn't too difficult. Our boy isn't perfect and doesn't get it right every time but I believe now he knows how it is supposed to play out, whereas before his skills at home with me did not transfer across to strangers when out. Quote
urge to herd Posted March 11, 2019 Report Posted March 11, 2019 1) Jumping on people. Practice a sit until you're tired of hearing the word. Ask people you know to help you train Tama. Arrange to 'run into them' while on a walk. The minute you see them, tell Tama to sit. Friend approaches, Tama starts to stand. You say sit. If Tama doesn't sit, you walk away with him. Every. Single. Time. By the time you pull him off, someone's trousers or skirt, he's already done the behavior. You want him to sit in anticipation of being allowed to politely greet the human. That's his reinforcement. 2) Crate him when he barks at home. At this stage, don't encourage his barking in any other way at any other time. Out and about, use that 'sit' command and add a 'look at me'. 3) Border collies tend be very serious about their work. I'm 95% sure it's not dominance at the park. In his mind, he's being interrupted at something he takes seriously. I'd be PO'd, too, if someone ran by me and grabbed a book I was reading. And there is sooooo much stimulation at a dog park when there's a bunch of dogs there. Dogs running around, people talking and moving around, and the border collie just wants to get the darn ball and bring it back. None of my dogs have done well at a dog park when there are other dogs there. They like to focus on their 'job' and not be interfered with in the doing of it. You may need to take him early in the a.m., which is what I ended up doing. IMO, balancing the border collie's 'work ethic', for want of a better term, against a need for socialization, respecting the work ethic comes first. My dogs have done well at kennels when I had to leave them there. They weren't the life of the party, but they got along with the other dogs when out in the exercise areas. Ruth & Gibbs, who gets very PO'd when another dog interferes with his work. Quote
Mandy1961 Posted March 12, 2019 Report Posted March 12, 2019 Our boy, 10 months old is like this with people, he seems to think everyone wants to meet him. He is getting better, as soon as someone approaches, we say no jumping and he now gets that not everyone wants to pet him. We also have the barking issue, he is too heavy for me to put in the crate or time outs, so I just say Stop and stand by the window. This is work in progress, we live on a corner, so he is constantly seeing other dogs, cats and people walk past. Some days are better than others, but he can get very worked up. We take our to the dog park, but only started when he was 6 months old and to begin with, we only went in when it was quiet. We did not take a ball at first, but now we go to the opposite end where there are no dogs to play ball. He is very focused on the ball and doesn’t bother with other dogs until they are quite close. We then take the ball away and let him play and run around with the other dogs. Quote
tamapup Posted March 12, 2019 Author Report Posted March 12, 2019 Thank you all for the feedback. One of the things I am most concerned about - which I did not detail in the original post - is his jumping habits on ME when we are in the dog park. He runs up behind me and jumps on me, and continues to do it nonstop. If I ignore him, he begins to nip my jeans and jacket, and actually tears the fabric. If I give him any kind of attention, I'm afraid it will reinforce the behavior. He acts completely wild, and turning away sharply in no way dissuades him from the behavior. Quote
GentleLake Posted March 12, 2019 Report Posted March 12, 2019 7 hours ago, Mandy1961 said: ...he is too heavy for me to put in the crate or time outs... He should have been taught to go into the crate on cue by now, or at the very least when you lead him in (you can use a hang tag on his collar -- a short length of leash that doesn't quite reach the floor -- to make it easy for you to always have a handle). If he hasn't been taught that yet, teach it now. Be sure to toss a treat in with him and give him verbal praise when he goes in so that it's not seen as a punishment. Quote
GentleLake Posted March 12, 2019 Report Posted March 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, tamapup said: ...his jumping habits on ME when we are in the dog park... The answer's pretty simple: stop taking him to the dog park, at least until he's learned to behave himself better. You're allowing him to self-reward and make these habits stronger by giving him the opportunity to practice them. Quote
urge to herd Posted March 12, 2019 Report Posted March 12, 2019 It truly sounds like your dog is not happy at the park. He sounds very overstimulated, and in that state, not a word/gesture of yours is going to go in that doggy brain. He's way over the line, and you're not going to be able to get through to him by continuing to take him there. Practice all the techniques mentioned above for calming at home, and/or on brief walks in your neighborhood. When you see significant progress in settling down, start w/basic obedience: sit, stay, lie down, off. Not all at once, one at a time. And not at the dog park. At home, inside, then in your yard, then around the neighborhood. ONLY THEN, when he's got the basics of good behavior down, do you take him to the dog park. AND, only at times when it's not full of dogs/people. If you've ever taken a toddler to a birthday party, and seen a 3 yr old human have a humungous melt-down ~ that's exactly what's going on for your dog. I feel your pain. I went through the some very similar things. In order to keep myself and my dogs safe, (and it took me a few scary incidents to realize that) I had some work to do and had to take my dogs very early in the morning. It's difficult, I know. It's also the only way to stay safe. Please let us know how you get on. Ruth & Gibbs Quote
D'Elle Posted March 12, 2019 Report Posted March 12, 2019 Dog parks are not good for puppies. they overstimulate them, as is mentioned above, and make it impossible to work on training because the distractions are overwhelming. This creates a situation where the pup gets to self-reward with bad behaviors all the time, and this is exactly what you do not want. Advice you have above is good. Crate every single time he starts to bark. If he is not trained to go into his crate on command, train that now, because you will need that at times throughout the dog's life. You should not have to pick up the dog to get him into the crate. You do not need to let your dog run around off leash and socialize. No dog actually needs to have that, in fact, but it is too much for a puppy. No young dog should be let off leash until there is a reliable recall in place. Letting a young pup who is not fully trained run around off leash is never a good idea. Your puppy was not showing dominance with the other dog. He was putting him in his place - telling him to back off in much the same way you would if you were accosted by a stranger who tried to take away what you were carrying. You would probably grab onto your object and yell at the other person to get away from you. This would not be a show of dominance on your part. It would be standing your ground. That is all your dog was doing, and should not be reprimanded for this, nor should it worry you. I would be far more worried about a dog who did not stand up for himself than about one who did. Quote
tamapup Posted March 12, 2019 Author Report Posted March 12, 2019 Thank you all! To clarify - I have taught him to "go to bed" on command and have no issue getting him to go inside his crate. Sorry, didn't realize I said I pick him up in my original post! This is more of an exception... It's good to hear that he wasn't doing anything wrong by standing up for himself at the dog park - this was my initial thought as well, but people have been unhappy with it before and several have even come up to my dog and pulled him off their dog themselves when he does this ...even though he's not hurting anyone Not to mention that he has always been the smaller of the two dogs involved. I will take the advice on not taking him to the dog park for now, it makes a lot of sense to me. Will focus on keeping our walks short and getting some solid training in place before moving forwards. Thank you all for the great advice, as per usual. Quote
urge to herd Posted March 12, 2019 Report Posted March 12, 2019 1 hour ago, tamapup said: Thank you all! but people have been unhappy with it before and several have even come up to my dog and pulled him off their dog themselves when he does this ...even though he's not hurting anyone I will take the advice on not taking him to the dog park for now, it makes a lot of sense to me. Will focus on keeping our walks short and getting some solid training in place before moving forwards. Thank you all for the great advice, as per usual. You're very welcome. We were all new at this at some point. A lot of people think that dogs are constantly arguing about who's 'dominant' and who's not. Caesar Milan has a good idea here and there, but the whole dominance thing is way overblown, IMO. Again, if someone walked by me and grabbed a book I was reading, I'd be mightily angered and would get the book back. That's not dominance, it's standing up for yourself. And from what I've seen, in my own small doggy world, a lot of 'aggressive' behavior is the same thing ~ don't do that, it's rude. I saw Gibbs give a younger dog 2 chances to behave while at the dog park. Gibbs was fetching his ball. Young dog kept following him and trying to get him to play. For a few minutes, Gibbs just avoided the dog and stayed focused on the ball. That was chance 1, 'I'm not interested'. Youngster kept at it. The 4th attempt on the youngster's part, Gibbs turned and drove the dog away, snarling up a storm. Didn't touch him. That was chance 2. Youngster paced around at the edges a bit, (clueless owner was preparing to get huffy, I could see her out of the corner of my eyes. Controlling her own dog Did Not Appear To Occur To Her). The 3rd time, G whirled around, grabbed the youngster by the muzzle, held it for a few seconds, then let go. The youngster was fine, clueless owner was even more huffy. After I ascertained that youngster was unharmed, (it's muzzle was a little wet, but no marks at all) I left. Never went to the dog park again if there was anyone there. There are dogs who enjoy a good wrestle, and it can sound pretty gruesome. But tails are wagging, body language is loose and easy, and if you pull them apart, they both dive in again. Great fun to watch, and you still need to be vigilant that it doesn't cross the line. Rude behavior is rampant at dog parks. I'm surprised there aren't more injuries and lawsuits. Ruth & GIbbs Quote
tamapup Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Posted March 13, 2019 Gibbs sounds like a great dog, and mightily patient too I've come across the odd border collie or two at dog parks before, and all seem to act more or less the same... eyes trained on their owners, retrieving a ball or stick with great focus and determination. Not interested in other dogs. I'm so looking forward to the days with Tama when I can take him out early in the morning, off-leash out in the park, away from other dogs, and we can play Frisbee together Here's a few pictures of my boy! Quote
urge to herd Posted March 13, 2019 Report Posted March 13, 2019 Beautiful boy! I love the one with the stick! Ruth & Gibbs Quote
HerePupPup Posted March 13, 2019 Report Posted March 13, 2019 On 3/12/2019 at 8:00 AM, GentleLake said: He should have been taught to go into the crate on cue by now, or at the very least when you lead him in (you can use a hang tag on his collar -- a short length of leash that doesn't quite reach the floor -- to make it easy for you to always have a handle). If he hasn't been taught that yet, teach it now. Be sure to toss a treat in with him and give him verbal praise when he goes in so that it's not seen as a punishment. My girl is also 5 months old and does NOT like going into her crate. This is probably because she does go there for time out (punishment) for excessive bitey behavior. So, my question is, how do I train her to willing go into her crate AND use the crate for time out (punishment)? For non-time out crate sessions, I always toss in a treat and then give her a second or third after she's inside. Even with a treat, she won't go into her crate without some physical encouragement (ie: leading her by her collar, blocking her exit, or a gentle push on her behind to get her all the way in.) When she's misbehaved (hyper play biting that often leads to latching on hard) we tell her "Time out" and take her to the crate but offer no reward. Now, she's fighting back. She hears "Time out" and when I attempt to lead her toward the crate, she goes into a mini frenzy where she fights the leash and sometimes lunges and nips at my pants or arms, often leaving me bruised and occasionally a bit bloody. Obviously, we're doing something wrong to have gotten to this point. Quote
HerePupPup Posted March 13, 2019 Report Posted March 13, 2019 4 hours ago, tamapup said: I've come across the odd border collie or two at dog parks before, and all seem to act more or less the same... eyes trained on their owners, retrieving a ball or stick with great focus and determination. Not interested in other dogs. I'm so looking forward to the days with Tama when I can take him out early in the morning, off-leash out in the park, away from other dogs, and we can play Frisbee together In our puppy class, my girl (also a 5-month-old, smooth coat BC) is submissive to the other pups. They sniff and drops to the floor and lets them. She does not roll onto her back but she doesn't roughhouse back and certainly is not the play instigator. She's more like the other BCs you've met at the park. While her eyes are not trained on me (I wish they were), she's 95% focused on doing her own thing and only 5% interested in what the other puppies are doing. She spends her "playtime" sessions in puppy class running through a tunnel, climbing a ramp, chasing a ball or other single-dog activities. She briefly greets any new pup that comes into the class, then she quickly loses interest and is back to doing her own thing. "Playtime" is only a small part of puppy class. Between play sessions, we feed our pups a ton of tiny bits of treats (chicken, hot dogs, etc) in an effort to have them focused on their owners and ignore the other pups. At this point, I'd say the focus is more on the FOOD than the owners. We get them settled enough that they can sit, down, sit, down (puppy push-ups) and we practice "leave it". When all the pups are doing well, then we release them for another playtime. During the playtime sessions, owners will encourage their pups to climb up or down a short, carpeted ramp, climb onto or off of a training table, put their paws on a skateboard or wobble board, etc. The socialization is more about introducing them to new experiences than to new dogs. I had a small part in getting a dog park in our community and have visited on occasion with a friend and her dogs. But I never took one of my own. When the dog park first opened, I had a fear-aggressive dog and felt it was in everyone's best interest not to expose him to other people or animals. Now, I have a dog who has little interest in other dogs so there is no reason for her to go to a dog park. Not only that but I've heard too many horror stories about irresponsible owners who take their dogs to the park. My sister and nephew witnessed a dog fight that resulted in one dog's death. They will never visit a dog park again and I'm inclined to follow suit. We recently started playing fetch with the Frisbee in our backyard. I can't throw it far but it's fun for both of us. If I decide to toss it farther, I will probably take my dog to a local park (dogs allowed on leash only) and attach her to a 50-foot long line. Quote
Lawgirl Posted March 14, 2019 Report Posted March 14, 2019 1 hour ago, HerePupPup said: My girl is also 5 months old and does NOT like going into her crate. This is probably because she does go there for time out (punishment) for excessive bitey behavior. So, my question is, how do I train her to willing go into her crate AND use the crate for time out (punishment)? There was a thread a little while ago about a sudden fear of a kitchen, where someone posted a Kikopup video. That showed how desensitisation works. I think that is the kind of thing you will need to go through. You need to create positive associations with the crate. Can you feed in the crate? Can you give her a yummy chew toy in the crate? Can you treat her for going in the crate but not necessarily shut the door and keep her in there? This means the crate does not always mean the end of fun. When you are putting her into a time out, you may need to change the cue word away from "time out" because that is now a negative association. Maybe not say anything at all? Or say "Puppy needs a nap"? Something that will either sound positive or at least neutral. Quote
GentleLake Posted March 14, 2019 Report Posted March 14, 2019 2 hours ago, HerePupPup said: So, my question is, how do I train her to willing go into her crate AND use the crate for time out (punishment)? Honestly, I'm not sure you can. I've never run into this situation because I've always crate trained from the get go so that by the time I may have needed it for a time out the pup was already good with it. I think you may have to stop using the crate for a time out at all while you desensitize and counter condition. Plus, it's probably not a good idea for you to be thinking in terms of using the crate as punishment. Your attitude and intention in this regard is most likely being conveyed to the puppy whether you're aware of it or not, and this is what's caused all the negative associations to the crate. The simple fact that she's fighting back when you put her in the crate for a punishment reinforces this. It's different to the puppy because it's different to you. You're creating the conditions that make her hate the crate. The only way you're going to be able to separate the 2 different crate experiences is probably going to be for you to never, ever use the crate for a time out again until she's well and truly forgotten all negative associations with it. This could take weeks, months or even years, depending on both the degree of aversion you've created and her own resilience. So if you want to give her times out, you're going to have to find another way that's not the crate to do it. Before you start this alternative, be sure you really understand how to enforce a time out without making it a punishment. Punishment has already been proven to cause another undesirable behavior in your pup, so you need to learn to stop thinking of punishing her. D'Elle often talks about being put in the crate for a time out as being a consequence. This (e.g. biting) happens, therefore this (e.g. time out in the crate) is a consequence. It's like a force of nature and should have no emotional baggage from you attached to it. Do some searches to see how she describes it; she does a much better job of it than I'm doing. Quote
ShellyF Posted March 14, 2019 Report Posted March 14, 2019 If you take out the words like punishment and time out it may help focus on what’s going on. When they can’t behave they need a nap! We call it nap time in our house and we treat each time he goes to his crate. So when we get the ridiculous behaviour we say ‘ok little guy, you must be tired, nap time’ or in the evening we say ‘we’re going to watch tv now and you’ve had a long walk so ‘nap time’ or ‘it’s 10pm so nap time’ lol! When he was younger and irritable he would hide under the chair when I said ‘nap time’ and he’d protest while I lead him there. Usually he did a rugby tackle with two of his legs around one of mine and snapping away haha! Most of the time, now he’s 11 months, he goes willingly. It’s mainly during the evening while we have tv time or overnight. But when we have visitors and he gets over stimulated we take him there. He mildly protests and then remembers that he gets treats so usually darts in at the last minute. And if we don’t go to bed by 10pm he waits at the bedroom door (his crate is in there) so he can go in his crate. It will get better :) Quote
D'Elle Posted March 14, 2019 Report Posted March 14, 2019 16 hours ago, HerePupPup said: So, my question is, how do I train her to willing go into her crate AND use the crate for time out (punishment)? This can be done, you would have needed to start from the beginning. Using the crate as only a punishment is sure to create a dog who won't go into a crate, of course. The thing is, your dog needs to be OK going into a crate. There are many situations in a dog's life in which being OK in a crate is absolutely necessary, so start now to change that. Stop using the crate for time out and use something else. Leave the crate somewhere that is easy for the dog to get into, and put toys and treats in there. Start feeding the dog near the crate and incrementally move the bowl closer until he has to get part way, then all the way, into the crate to get the food. Leave the door open at all times. Work very slowly over the course of several weeks to desensitize the dog to the crate. You may not ever be able to use it as a correction again. The thing is, the crate needs to be an OK place for the dog to be right from the start. It needs to be his den, or his room. That is accomplished by using it a lot for nice things like feeding, using it for naps, and so on. Then, when it is used because the pup needs to calm down, it has to be done the right way. For one thing, I don't use a crate for "punishment". I do not have an attitude of Punishment at any time with my dogs, ever. Simply consequences. It is vitally important that you do not ever use a time out, especially with the crate, with anger or frustration or a punishing attitude. You need to do it calmly and even affectionately, the same way you would put a toddler down for a nap if he were tearing around the house knocking things over and getting over-excited. In my experience, dogs don't ever need punishment in training. I really mean that. All they need is to be shown what is right, rewarded for doing what is right, and shown the consequences for doing the wrong thing. The consequences are just that - like a force of nature - and impersonal. And they have to be, like a force of nature, 100% consistent. Quote
HerePupPup Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 Oh my! This is starting to make a LOT of sense. When I read that I should send her to her crate for a "time out" for biting, I thought of it as when I gave my school-age boys time out (childhood punishment for hitting, throwing a tantrum, etc) not when I gave them toddler naps (rest for them & mom when they got whiney). Having the idea of CONSEQUENCES vs PUNISHMENT explained to me really makes a huge difference. It's all in the attitude -- MY attitude. So, when I get bit, I'm not supposed to shake my finger and say, "That's it. You get a Time Out," to teach her that biting is bad. Instead, I should be upbeat and say, "Looks like you need to go night-night," and have faith that she will eventually grow out of the nippy stage. Right? I have a feeling that we are going to be faced with a lot of work to get past this. I do have a playpen with a wire top that I can use for the time out while we work on making the crate a safe haven. I normally feed her in her playpen, because she likes to toss the Kong to get her kibble. I tried it in the crate when she was young but she had trouble with that. I can feed her from a bowl for a few weeks as we work on adjusting her crate perspective. You know, I've often said that when babies are born, they should come with an instruction manual. I think that goes double for adopting a border collie puppy. Adoptive parents don't need a brochure. They need a step-by-step manual with full explanation and pictures! I've raised two other puppies, both were German shepherd mixes. This little BC girl is by far the most challenging. BTW, here is a photo of my little princess: Quote
GentleLake Posted March 16, 2019 Report Posted March 16, 2019 Yeah! Yes. You understand the difference. I agree there are lots of things we take for granted that should come with instruction manuals. It so often seems it's the most important thing that don't. Quote
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