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First time border collie / puppy owner. Advice please!


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Hello to everyone from the Japanese countryside.

 

About a week ago, we adopted a border collie. He's just over four months old. I have had many dogs throughout my life, but we've generally gotten them at an older age, and we've never had a border collie, or for that matter a herding dog, before.

 

I'm hoping I can ask those much more experienced than myself about some of the dog's behavior, so that I can either feel more assured that it's normal, or make whatever adjustments are necessary before it's too late.

 

Basically, I'm concerned that he doesn't often relax when inside the house, outside of his crate. When we put him in the back yard, he very calmly walks around, smells and eats plants, and seems very relaxed. When we put him in the crate, he complains, then finally relaxes and lies down (at first, he tried to escape, but he has gotten more used to it, as he has been rewarded more and more for just being calm in the crate.)

 

The issue is when he's in the house, but not in his crate. Although he seems to be happy and relaxed outside, he seems to always need to be doing something when inside, regardless of how much he exercised. When we take him out of the crate his ears are down and he's very calm. Then, regardless of what we do, after about one minute, his ears perk up and he starts looking for something to chew on. If we give him a toy, he'll throw it around, run after it, and begin getting more and more out of control. Eventually, he'll work himself up into such an excitement that he will run around, biting anything he finds, and becomes a danger to the furniture, so we have to try to calm him down and put him back in the crate, or take him outside. When he's excited, he will bite at people's hands, ears, or noses (in a playful manner, nothing too dangerous), but this is something we don't like him doing.

 

The exception is when he knows it's bedtime. We have him sleep in the crate (we move it into the bedroom so he isn't lonely,) but when I put him on the bed, he was able to rest at my feet and not cause trouble, which was very nice. But it could also be that he's not used to the bedroom except as a sleeping place, as he doesn't go there other times.

 

I might mention that we were told the dog sleeps a lot -- around 20 hours a day, when we adopted him. However, he doesn't seem to sleep very much at all. He also seems to be breathing fast/panting most of the time, even if he had water and it's not hot inside. Could this be caused by our not providing him a secluded place to sleep enough? Could the behavior be caused by lack of sleep?

 

Regarding other things we do with the dog, we have taught him some basic commands. He's good at sit and lie down, and working on recall. But he can be very stubborn, as he only wants to listen to commands when he's not busy playing, or if there's a food reward that he can sense is involved.

 

Anyway, right now he needs to remain under constant supervision or in a crate, which is okay with us for the time being. But we can't constantly supervise him or crate him forever. We need him to be okay with just hanging out while inside the house, without getting aggressive or over-excited. I'm hoping someone can let us know around what age this ends, or if it's just the way border collies are?

 

Any other advise or questions are much appreciated! Best regards!

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I notice you have not included anything in your post about how much exercise your puppy is getting. It is possible that he needs more exercise, to help tire him out.

My second piece of advice would be to work his mind. If he gets too excited playing with toys, limit his time with them. Give him mental work to do, such as trick training or nosework. There are lots of videos and advice pages on how to do both of these things.

Border collies are very smart, and he may be trying to work out what his role is in your house. In the bedroom, he seems to have figured out what to do. Now he needs to learn what to do in the rest of the house. The fast breathing/panting could be a sign of stress. If he is not sure what to do, he is feeling insecure. Maybe use a mat in your living room and teach him to go to his mat, reward him when he is there and calm, just like teaching him his crate.

As for chewing, I suggest something like a deer antler or goat horn, or a cow hoof. Not very fun to throw or chase, but nice to chew. You should be able to find these in a pet store or online.

I am by no means a expert, but hope things work out for you.

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I notice you have not included anything in your post about how much exercise your puppy is getting. It is possible that he needs more exercise, to help tire him out.

My second piece of advice would be to work his mind. If he gets too excited playing with toys, limit his time with them. Give him mental work to do, such as trick training or nosework. There are lots of videos and advice pages on how to do both of these things.

Border collies are very smart, and he may be trying to work out what his role is in your house. In the bedroom, he seems to have figured out what to do. Now he needs to learn what to do in the rest of the house. The fast breathing/panting could be a sign of stress. If he is not sure what to do, he is feeling insecure. Maybe use a mat in your living room and teach him to go to his mat, reward him when he is there and calm, just like teaching him his crate.

As for chewing, I suggest something like a deer antler or goat horn, or a cow hoof. Not very fun to throw or chase, but nice to chew. You should be able to find these in a pet store or online.

I am by no means a expert, but hope things work out for you.

Thank you very much for your reply!

Regarding exercise, it's tricky. We take him on runs outside, take him on walks, and let him play in the yard.

If we are with him and walking or running, he's happy to run/walk with us. We've tried various amounts of exercise. On a rainy day, he got very little exercise. On a nice day, he got around two hours of actively running/walking outside. We didn't really notice a difference in his behavior though, regardless of exercise.

 

He doesn't seem interested in exercising when in our yard. He's more interested in smelling and eating plants, chasing insects, and so on. He loves to fetch (he doesn't bring it back, but he loves to go after) balls and toys inside, but shows no interest in doing that outside. He'd rather walk around, lie down, eat plants, etc. He behaves like the perfect dog when outside :P

 

Really, the biggest issues we have are that he plays so hard when inside, and that he bites people when he's feeling playful.

Heavier chew toys are a great idea. Japanese pet stores don't seem to have things like goat horns or antlers, but we might be able to come up with something that he can chew on without throwing around. Thanks for that!

 

Today we didn't do quite as much exercise in the morning, but instead did intensive obedience training. He managed to get tired out enough to sleep for a few minutes in the room he usually goes crazy in. I guess for him mental exercise works better than physical. But we just took him on a run too, so we'll see.

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I will add to be careful with how much exercise you give a puppy before they are fully developed. Allowing your puppy to run around at his own pace, sniff, stop, nibble etc is fine. Stairs, fetch, running after big dogs, long on-lead walks at your pace etc can be damaging to growing puppies. Also, the more exercise you give him now, the more he will expect in the future, so make sure what you give him is what you can maintain.

I think you still need to work on what we call an off-switch. This can be taught. There have been lots of posts about off-switches, as well as puppy nipping. You can search this forum for other advice about these issues.

Mental exercise sounds like it may be a good option. Trick training, the fundamentals of agility (which are about core strength, rear end awareness and building a bond between you and your dog) and nose work, or any combination of them, are worth trying. Just be aware of the puppy's joint and bone development.

If you have not looked into other resources, a lot of people on here swear by a book called "Control Unleashed". May be worth a look.

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Paradoxically, exercise (the wrong type) can make a dog more nuts. When my dog was a pup (and even now), a long walk in a natural area in which the dog was allowed to sniff and investigate made my dog more tired than chasing a ball/tugging.

 

At home, you can confine your dog to an x-pen, which has more space than a crate. Put a bunch of toys in the pen, including something to chew on, like a frozen kong. You can also buy puzzle feeders for your dog which will make the meal last longer and challenge him.

 

Even now, my dogs have an active period starting around 7 PM, I've read somewhere that this is very common and is due to some type of hormonal spike. When my dog was a pup, he sometimes went crazy, racing in circles in the pen, screaming and growling, and when that happened, I put him and a chew toy in an airline crate located in a dark, quiet room, and shut the door. He eventually stopped screaming and settled. When he emerged, he was much calmer.

 

If my dog was outside the pen, and got very bitey, I put him inside the pen with toys.

 

Don't worry, it eventually gets better!

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Re: Active period around 7 pm ~ I experience this myself, and speaking about it with some friends, other humans do, as well.

 

Afternoons, no matter how well rested I am, tend to be lower energy. Around 6:30 or 7 p.m., I'm ready to rev it up again. Perhaps it's more a mammal trait than specifically a canine one.

 

Would be interesting to hear if others experience the same spike.

 

Ruth & Gibbs

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Hi. I'm new here, but I'm glad I saw this post. I have a 13 week old BC pup and it sounds like you're experiencing a lot of similar things that I am and I think it's mostly normal. I attribute the biting and chewing mostly to teething and attention seeking. It also sounds like your pup might be associating being inside with play, or he's getting bored and seeking mental stimulation. Indoors there's not as many cool things to look at or experience (plants, wind, digging, etc..). Luckily, our pup hasn't been too interested in eating things like rocks and plants, but she'll get your calf muscle while you're walking if she gets rowdy and wants your attention. 9 times out of 10 she gets the shaft of my boot, but when she gets flesh ... ouch! This also only happens primarily indoors where she seems to want more attention and we play with her a lot.

 

One of the first things I worked on with her when we brought her home at 8 weeks was teaching her an interrupter so we're not constantly yelling 'no'. For us, it's a double kiss sound, and it has been a life saver. She wasn't really food motivated at first so I used a combination of toys (she'll tug all day) and boiled chicken as rewards to work on this. Interrupt and redirect to a toy or something that it's okay to chew on. Over and over and over and over. I've learned quickly that these puppies demand your attention, and they want you to give them something to do pretty much any time that their eyes are open. It's repetitive and a ton of work to keep these pups entertained. The only time I'm not interacting with the dog is if she's sleeping or we're away. When I'm working from home I'm constantly on the phone or typing with one hand while my pup playfully tugs on whatever toy I can grab to keep her entertained. You could try some dog games. I have a Trixie level 2 flip board that she loves to do it. My older dogs take a few minutes to do it, but my little BC baby takes about 60 seconds. She loves it so we'll do it 4-5 times with her and it seems to help exercise her brain.

 

I'm not a medical expert so take this as only my personal experience. As far as the quick breathing, my vet said not to worry about it unless we start noticing any other peculiarities that would indicate respiratory stress like loud breathing through the nose (obstructions, blockages) or if the dog shows discomfort around the rib area. I noticed it when she is crated in the truck, even with the AC blasting to the point I need a coat. She sleeps, but breathes really fast. At home it doesn't seem quite as quick, but it's still a pretty brisk pace. My vet said it is probably a little bit of stress in the vehicle, and I'm working on making her more comfortable, but some puppies breathe faster than others. If you're concerned, definitely ask your vet and keep an eye on it.

 

I think most of this is just something that comes with having a BC so you have to be prepared mentally for it and realize it won't last forever. I literally have 100's of hours reading, watching videos, and talking to people about BC's and BC training and I still find this puppy to be a challenge (my first ever puppy). I think in the end it will really pay off. If you're okay with clicker training, look up the Kikopup YouTube videos. Even without a clicker there are some good methods there that could be used verbally. Also, the Control Unleashed: Puppy Edition book has taught me to look at my dog's behavior as always trying to tell me something and it's changed the way I approach my dog.

 

I hope this helps a little. You are not alone!

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Hi. I'm new here, but I'm glad I saw this post. I have a 13 week old BC pup and it sounds like you're experiencing a lot of similar things that I am and I think it's mostly normal. I attribute the biting and chewing mostly to teething and attention seeking. It also sounds like your pup might be associating being inside with play, or he's getting bored and seeking mental stimulation. Indoors there's not as many cool things to look at or experience (plants, wind, digging, etc..). Luckily, our pup hasn't been too interested in eating things like rocks and plants, but she'll get your calf muscle while you're walking if she gets rowdy and wants your attention. 9 times out of 10 she gets the shaft of my boot, but when she gets flesh ... ouch! This also only happens primarily indoors where she seems to want more attention and we play with her a lot.

 

One of the first things I worked on with her when we brought her home at 8 weeks was teaching her an interrupter so we're not constantly yelling 'no'. For us, it's a double kiss sound, and it has been a life saver. She wasn't really food motivated at first so I used a combination of toys (she'll tug all day) and boiled chicken as rewards to work on this. Interrupt and redirect to a toy or something that it's okay to chew on. Over and over and over and over. I've learned quickly that these puppies demand your attention, and they want you to give them something to do pretty much any time that their eyes are open. It's repetitive and a ton of work to keep these pups entertained. The only time I'm not interacting with the dog is if she's sleeping or we're away. When I'm working from home I'm constantly on the phone or typing with one hand while my pup playfully tugs on whatever toy I can grab to keep her entertained. You could try some dog games. I have a Trixie level 2 flip board that she loves to do it. My older dogs take a few minutes to do it, but my little BC baby takes about 60 seconds. She loves it so we'll do it 4-5 times with her and it seems to help exercise her brain.

 

I'm not a medical expert so take this as only my personal experience. As far as the quick breathing, my vet said not to worry about it unless we start noticing any other peculiarities that would indicate respiratory stress like loud breathing through the nose (obstructions, blockages) or if the dog shows discomfort around the rib area. I noticed it when she is crated in the truck, even with the AC blasting to the point I need a coat. She sleeps, but breathes really fast. At home it doesn't seem quite as quick, but it's still a pretty brisk pace. My vet said it is probably a little bit of stress in the vehicle, and I'm working on making her more comfortable, but some puppies breathe faster than others. If you're concerned, definitely ask your vet and keep an eye on it.

 

I think most of this is just something that comes with having a BC so you have to be prepared mentally for it and realize it won't last forever. I literally have 100's of hours reading, watching videos, and talking to people about BC's and BC training and I still find this puppy to be a challenge (my first ever puppy). I think in the end it will really pay off. If you're okay with clicker training, look up the Kikopup YouTube videos. Even without a clicker there are some good methods there that could be used verbally. Also, the Control Unleashed: Puppy Edition book has taught me to look at my dog's behavior as always trying to tell me something and it's changed the way I approach my dog.

 

I hope this helps a little. You are not alone!

Thank you. It's very reassuring. Hopefully I can withstand this craziness until he hits adulthood and becomes more reasonable :P

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I've learned quickly that these puppies demand your attention, and they want you to give them something to do pretty much any time that their eyes are open. It's repetitive and a ton of work to keep these pups entertained. The only time I'm not interacting with the dog is if she's sleeping or we're away. When I'm working from home I'm constantly on the phone or typing with one hand while my pup playfully tugs on whatever toy I can grab to keep her entertained.

 

Puppies need to learn to be OK entertaining themselves sometimes. If you're constantly entertaining the pup every waking moment when you're with her, then you're going to create a dog who demands your attention every waking moment. Give her some time in an x-pen with toys and chews, maybe a frozen stuffed Kong, so she can learn to be sane and occupy herself without constantly pestering you.

 

If you don't, I'll bet dollars to donuts that you'll be back here someday asking for help with how to get some time off from your dog who demands your constant attention, and we'll have to tell you how to do Click to Calm exercises. :rolleyes:

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Puppies need to learn to be OK entertaining themselves sometimes. If you're constantly entertaining the pup every waking moment when you're with her, then you're going to create a dog who demands your attention every waking moment. Give her some time in an x-pen with toys and chews, maybe a frozen stuffed Kong, so she can learn to be sane and occupy herself without constantly pestering you.

 

If you don't, I'll bet dollars to donuts that you'll be back here someday asking for help with how to get some time off from your dog who demands your constant attention, and we'll have to tell you how to do Click to Calm exercises. :rolleyes:

 

Yep.

 

Even my 4 month old, admittedly X, is perfectly capable of lying down and chewing on a bone and amusing himself. My 3 year old is certainly capable of chilling out.

 

Play happens, yes (and training and outings and cuddling and -) , but I'm not the Doggy Entertainment Committee and I don't give into whines of 'I'm bored' from dogs any more than I did my kids. Fine, go find something to do or I'll find something for you to do (in the kids case chores, in the dogs' case take a nap in a crate or pen).

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Puppies need to learn to be OK entertaining themselves sometimes. If you're constantly entertaining the pup every waking moment when you're with her, then you're going to create a dog who demands your attention every waking moment. Give her some time in an x-pen with toys and chews, maybe a frozen stuffed Kong, so she can learn to be sane and occupy herself without constantly pestering you.

 

If you don't, I'll bet dollars to donuts that you'll be back here someday asking for help with how to get some time off from your dog who demands your constant attention, and we'll have to tell you how to do Click to Calm exercises. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

Yep.

 

Even my 4 month old, admittedly X, is perfectly capable of lying down and chewing on a bone and amusing himself. My 3 year old is certainly capable of chilling out.

 

Play happens, yes (and training and outings and cuddling and -) , but I'm not the Doggy Entertainment Committee and I don't give into whines of 'I'm bored' from dogs any more than I did my kids. Fine, go find something to do or I'll find something for you to do (in the kids case chores, in the dogs' case take a nap in a crate or pen).

 

You folks are great! Thanks for calling me out on that. You'll have to forgive me as I may have exaggerated that point a little bit. I was trying to drive home the point that the puppies just require a lot of attention and they'll demand it endlessly, but you're absolutely correct that you shouldn't always give in. The problem is she is so cute and lovable it's hard to resist!

 

I'm actually already working on 'capturing calm' with her and she will lay and chew on her antler, peanut butter filled Kong, and frozen carrots happily by herself. My biggest struggle so far has been having her around my two 12+ year old dogs that don't mind her being around, but aren't interested in playing very often and they can get grouchy. I've been keeping her on the harness/leash during her time with them and rewarding her for being calm in their presence. They share the house right now, and can interact through a baby gate which we haven't had any problems with, but are always separated unless supervised. She's really good when passing and interacting with other random dogs on our trips around town, but the two at home, especially our Beagle, get her wound up.

 

That's a face that's hard to resist!

g5XEmg8m.jpg

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I haven't read the posts, too long.

I'm almost 63 and had Golden Retrievers all my life until Jade, THE BORDER COLLIE entered my life, about 13 years ago. You have now entered a new dimension.

Read Susan Garrett. Patience and understanding will go a long way. You shall be challenged in ways that you never knew.

If you are up to the challenge the rewards last a life time.

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Re the active period or zoomies I had two things that helped. The first was changing his food, that stopped the crazy run around almost instantly. Bob, who's only 6mo, used to be a complete terror at 19:30 precisely. After changing his diet to Burns he stopped going mad at 19:30.

 

The second was a great analogy from his trainer: stress for dogs is like a cup, each interaction or something new or anxious situation adds to the cup. Eventually after too much the cup overflows and the pressure is released all at once. What you don't want is a dog that gets addicted to that release so every day is an exercise in tracking and ensuring the cup never overflows.

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What do you think it is about Burns that's making this apparent difference? You don't say, which would be helpful, especially since Burns only seems to be available in the UK. Burns in the US is no longer in business and it seems like it was a somewhat different product anyway. Besides, the OP is in Japan, so it may not even be available there.

 

A cursory look points to Burns being a grain heavy (read high carb), low protein kibble. Limited ingredients, so might be OK for dogs with food sensitivities, unless, or course they're sensitive to grains. But otherwise it doesn't look like something I'd be rushing to feed my dogs, if I were feeding kibble at all.

 

What your trainer is referring to is called trigger stacking. How are you suggesting that would apply here?

 

Details are always helpful. ;)

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You're right, my apologies. Honestly not much of an idea regarding the nutritional aspects of Burns vs other foods. I used a rough comparison tool - I typed the ingredients of the food my puppy was on from the breeder into this site https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/the-dog-food-directory which gives a break down of common foods in the UK but also lets you search by an ingredient list too so you can spot any major issues regardless of the brand. In switching to Burns I mainly used advice from a collection of websites, from what I can figure the lower protein content in the food I ended up choosing - Burns - slows the growth rate but matched up with my pups lifestyle more than the high energy farm food he was on.

 

With the trigger stacking it was always about breaking everything down to the nth degree. So here for instance, coming out the crate is stage 1 pretty exciting, lots of stuff to play with and they are still figuring what is allowed is stage 2, toy being thrown takes them further to stage 3 then charging after the toy under their own steam builds up until everything tips over and they struggle to listen or calm down.

 

For me when I had this problem, to break the cycle was about introducing a gap between each - he has to sit quietly before coming out of the crate, limit the attention given once he was out of the crate until all 4 paws are on the ground and he was a little more calm. With the toys Bob has to work for it with little sit-stays or any other trick I can think of and I take the toy away every couple of minutes and ask for another trick or behaviour. The end goal being that there's a break between each new event that allows him to debrief a little.

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I just have one thing to add. When my pup went into her "berserk" episodes (running around the room out of control biting and grabbing at whatever caught her eye and sometimes just at the air), I was able to calm her somewhat by picking her up and cradling her across my chest, and in my calmest most soothing voice, just barely above a whisper, saying "settle down a little bit", while gently and subtly petting her, usually with just one or two fingers along her cheek, ribs,etc. The first several times I did this she would struggle to get away so I had to restrain her. You can do this just firmly enough so as to not hurt your pup. She did whimper a little every few minutes while trying to escape for a while, but eventually settled down. I also mixed in "good girl" and other such endearing words from time to time. I always made it a point to only let her go when she was relaxed and not struggling (usually after around 15-30 minutes), and she would still run around and play after this, but much more controllably. And sometimes I had to repeat again if she worked back up into a frenzy. I found this to be a nice alternative to just crating her or x-penning her so frequently. My girl is 7 months old now, and this still works, though it is rarely necessary these days. We just had a "berserk" incident about a week ago after two days of rain and no walks, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that this still worked beautifully, although she was a little more difficult to corral now that she's 24 lbs vs. 10-15 lbs! :lol:

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