Clicker training

[Lunar]

So last weekend we finally bought some clickers and have started using them. Zeeke, as expected, is doing excellent. But I do have some questions/concerns.

 

First - we're working with two dogs. I worry about confusing them. I frequently have them both around while working with them, and I am working with both (instead of hubby working with one and me working with the other). So how do the dogs know what the clicker is for - or rather, WHO it is for? If I say, "Zeeke, sit" and click for him sitting, but Zoe is standing, will that confuse her? Do you just expect your dogs to be able to differentiate? (Heck I'm confused... so I can see that they would be!)

 

Second - what do you do when you don't have a clicker with you? Do you have a secondary marker word you use? That's why I've always shied away from clicker training.... I really hate to be dependent on external devices that can break, be left behind, be out of reach, etc.

 

And thirdly - does a click DEMAND a treat? I've always taught with phasing out treats for things.... or rather, randomly giving treats (after the learning phase). Sometimes Zoe gets just verbal praise for a sit, sometimes she gets a treat. So with the clicker, if I mark the sit, do I NEED to give a treat? (I understand that need is relative - I mean, I could use a clicker to mark an unwanted behavior if I so chose - but I'm speaking in terms of the common understood clicker training model) In order to randomly reward would I then have to randomly click as well?

 

Sorry for all the questions, I'm just trying to figure this out.

 

Zoe really doesn't seem to be "getting" the clicker thing - she sorta gets it, but she's not paying attention. (Unlike Zeeke, whose head whips around when he hears that click. You can HEAR the wheels clunk into gear with that one.) Sadly, I'm thinking that Zoe, whatever mix she is, does not have that famed border collie intelligence. She IS very biddible, though, which makes hear easy to train in many ways. But she is nowhere near Zeeke's intelligence. (German Shepherds are supposedly only second to BCs, you know. ) But anyways, with her OB class we used a marker word "YES", and that she's used to and she "gets" it - so for now I'm using the marker word for Zoe and the clicker for Zeeke. Confusing for me, but much clearer for the dogs.

 

Now I need to go find some more tricks for Zeeke to learn. He's this empty vessel waiting for knowledge.

[Lunar]

Hmm, I think I posted this in the wrong section. For some reason I thought this forum was a general training section. Mods please move it to General, if you see fit.

[urge to herd]

Hi, Natalie,

 

You can sure use a word or noise if you don't have a clicker to hand. I use GREAT! in a high pitched voice, easy for me to say and I don't usually talk in that tone, so it's pretty distinctive. It just needs to be a word/sound you don't use very often, and one that comes out of your mouth easily.

 

Consistently click the action you want during training, otherwise the dog won't get the idea. As far as treats, the general rule is every click means a reinforcer, which is not necessarily food. It just has to be something the dog finds A Great Thing. Food is often used, especially when training something new because it's very easy. But use anything at all that the dog likes.

 

Buzz likes to get his neck scratched, Sammi likes her butt rubbed, they all like a quick game of tug, Buzz likes to meet new people, etc etc. They all seem to like to have their tails pulled a bit. Strange, maybe, but it works. I use the word treat, because it's quicker to say, but I'm thinking reinforcer, because that's what I'm actually providing. I'll use the things I mentioned above, plus about anything else each dog will perk up for. Getting to go out the door to the yard after sitting politely is a reinforcer, for example.

 

You can work with either dog, and use that to train the non working dog to wait quietly. Trade them off frequently, work on a 'settle' with the non working dog. If your attention is on the dog working, the non working dog will get that and not expect a reinforcer when you click.

 

There is a Clicker Solutions email list at yahoo groups, they're very helpful. I hope the above helped make things clearer for you. Good luck, I love clicker training!

 

Ruth n the BC3

[Kat's Dogs]

About training two dogs - yes, I think it would NOT work. I never did like how some training centers to clickers in a CLASS of dogs! The dog doesn't really have any way to know which click is your click. I would train each dog one at a time, in a closed room. That is how I do it with multiple doggies.

 

I click SHOULD get a treat at some point. BUT the clicker (in my opinion anyway) is just a training tool. So you don't work to get off the treats you work to get off the clicker (which means getting off the treats too). The clicker is really just to be used WHILE the dog is learning the behavior or while you are enforcing it later. Once the dog knows say, sit, then you don't by ANY means need to click evey time you say sit. That would be crazy! So just sometimes while they are learning a new behavior.

 

Dazzle is clicker trained, but that doesn't mean that ever behavior I train needs to be trained with a clicker. I only use it for stuff that is more difficult. So, just because the dog is clicker trained, doesn't mean that you have to always use it. All it is really, is just a way to say "good dog" at the right moment. Oh, and if you where doing multiple things (like a Sit, then a Down, then a Come or something) you could click for each one but only give a treat at the end.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Good luck - glad to hear that Zeeke is loving it! You might just have to do a bit more click = treat stuff with Zoe before she is happy with it - but she will get is soon enough!

[RaisingRiver]

I only clicker trained River to 'go around' me when playing frisbee. She returns it, then runs around the left of me and head out again. I did it because it was a hard concept for her to grasp exactly what I wanted. Otherwise, I mark all behaviours with 'YES'. I do this in agility and regular obedience day to day stuff. After she learns something she doesn't always get the treat each time, but she knows one is coming soon. Yes just means she's doing something right at that point. And with my 5.5 yo GSD/Chow, she never gets treated anymore except in agility which is always treated throughout the class or end of a class run - but I still mark her behaviours with 'Yes' from time to time.

 

BTW, I never treated for the 'go around' as the frisbee was it's own reward.

[bobh]

I have 4 dogs and use the clicker or other marker when all dogs are together . initialy i trained each seperatly but now I train them together sometimes.

I just use there name and the rest know its that dogs turn.

bobh

[Tassie]

I haven't used the clicker when I have both dogs with me - I would get confused - but I have worked my dog with a friend and her dog - both of us clicking for the behaviors we want - the dogs had NO problem differentiating when there are different handlers - after all they are paying attention to their handlers.

 

I vary my marker - clicker sometimes - I find it the most precise, and it makes mne be less sloppy about exactly what I want - and verbal sometimes - I use an excited Yes, or Yay.

 

If you click, you should reward, but it doesn't have to be a treat. As the dog learns more about learning, the timing of the treat/reward can alter - initially it should follow very quickly, but later, there can be a bit of delay.

 

One important thing - the click rewards attention already given, or a particular behavior or part of a behavior. The dog should already be paying attnetion - just be careful you're not using the clicker as an attention getter.

 

I don't strictly clicker train, but I love using my clicker for some special things - like a successful weave run, and I have had some success shaping a retrieve in my non-retrieving boy.

[Lunar]

Thanks for the explanations! That does make more sense about click=reinforcer. For Zeeke just being released is a huge thing for him, lol. I'm teaching him to hold a stay while I throw a toy... his reward is getting to chase the toy.

 

Zoe definitely will need more positive association. She needs better treats too. I have hotdogs now, so I might use those (cut into tiny pieces).

 

I'm thinking I might install a bolt in the wall somewhere in the living room with a short chain... to put one dog while I'm working the other. (Their crates are in the bedroom, where there is no room to do anything). I think it would be much easier for the dogs to figure it out if they weren't both sitting in front of me. I could just put one in a back room, but I think they do gain something from watching, as well as learning to settle and NOT be begging for attention. It would be a good lesson for them.

[Bordercentrics]

The best thing about clicker training, IMO, is the attitude of the dogs when they are being trained. If they are reward motivated, they try to figure out what behavior will get the reward and they offer it with no command.

 

Instead of being forced to do respond to a command, the dog WANTS to do what he is asked so that he can get the reward. As a result, he is motivated, eager and can't wait to learn the next behavior.

[urge to herd]

Shoshone and Buzz definitely learn from watching the others, Sammi not so much. A tether to the wall would work really well for you, I think.

 

If you're going to use hot dogs, you can slice them in 4 long ways, then slice the skinny strips into tiny bits, then nuke them or bake slowly in the oven. That gets a lot of the fat out, and makes them a bit crunchier, and they last longer in your pants pocket, They still don't last through the washing machine, though. If you're concerned about the salt in them, boil them first, then slice and cook.

 

Have a good time! You know, I was thinking last night after I posted that if you're able to work with Zeeke regularly with trick training he might calm down a bit and not be such a pistol.

 

For a list of tricks to do, use the search function, it's been discussed several times. The Clicker Solutions web site has a list of tricks, and there's always "Idiot's Guide to Fun and Tricks with Your Dog", you can probably find a used copy at half.com.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[Lunar]

Ruth - Yeah, that's what I did with the hot dog for her training in OB class. She likes hot dogs, lol.

 

I really hope regular training will calm Zeeke down. I hope I hope.

 

And yeah, I'm sure there are tons of sites out there with tricks for your dog.

[borderlicious]

You also don't have to rely on the clicker forever. Once the dog is reliably performing a behavior on cue, the click is easy to fade. I use a verbal marker too - "yes!" with the s noise drawn out. I use this as a bridge between the clicker and more casual praise/approval (sometimes followed by a reward, sometimes not. I love varied reinforcement because it makes the behavior so much stronger) like "good dog". I fade the clicker and verbal marker as quickly as I can without messing up the dog's execution of the behavior.

 

For the two dogs, you can also use a different reward marker for each dog. I use "yes" for my Border Collie and "good" for my Papillon. I don't use the clicker when I am working with both of them, which is why I hurry to switch them over to a verbal marker once they get the gist of the trick/command. The nice thing about the clicker as opposed to a verbal marker is the fact that the clicker is a consistent, sharp, clear sound. Verbal markers have subtle (to us, but glaringly obvious to a dog) differences each time they are spoken, and the timing often is not as precise with a verbal marker as it is with a clicker. It's easier to quickly press down on a little tab than it is to quickly say a word in a specific, consistent tone of voice. Dogs get the idea with verbal markers, but when you are first teaching a trick, the clicker is a really useful tool that speeds up learning.

 

Good luck with Zeeke! I have a Spazzy dog (Papillon) who has come a long way with some good training.

[Lunar]

Thanks for that! It helps answer some of my questions.