Another Sheepdog Trial Question

[terrecar]

I have been pondering something since my Sunday sheepdog trial tourist trip. This is regarding something I observed Re: having heard time called on a dog/handler team by whoever was keeping time vs. having seen a handler or two make the decision to retire. Do people who opt for the latter usually have a feel for how long they have been on the trial course and retire because they know they will time out; or do they feel their dog is not running well that day and think it is best to take the pressure off; or both; or neither; or something else? Just curious.

[terrecar]

....and a follow up question. If they retire because they know they'll time out, how do they know they're close to timing out without a watch (<---sorry to revert to the admittedly odd again, but this is coming from someone with little innate sense of time).

[gcv-border]

First, some (maybe most?) will have a watch and use it for keeping track of their run. (i.e. they check it a various points throughout their run) I am sure some get lost in the run and forget to look at their watch, but I have seen some handlers make a point to check their watch when they send their dog - and I have noticed a few handlers that must have a stopwatch function on their watch and will click it when they send their dog, then refer to it during their run.

 

Take this with a grain of salt since I do not run a dog in trials, but have been to many as a spectator (twice as a scribe) and have heard comments from other handlers during a run: I think most handlers will retire from their run when they sense that it is useless to continue - their dog is confused, their dog is not listening, the sheep are getting the better of the dog or several other reasons. There might be the odd handler or two who might retire since they know they will time out, but far, far more often, everyone keeps trying until the last second and time is called.

[dsmbc]

^^^ yes. At sheepdog trials, a handler does not keep their points if they retire, so you are better off letting time run out rather than retire if you think you are close to time.

 

With that said, people retire when the run is not going well, as mentioned above. As someone that is pretty new to trailing and in the novice level, I got good advice very recently about maintaining criteria at a trial, meaning not to let your dog get away with not doing what was asked (not taking a lie down, pushing too hard, etc), by ending a run.

 

That way you can make sure your dog doesn't start to think he can get away with things at a trial. I am now starting to take that advice.

[Liz P]

You retire for a variety of reasons. Young dog is in over it's head and you don't want a bad experience to continue. Dog isn't taking commands like it should. Dog is hot/tired/mentally done. You have lost so many points that you know you don't have a chance of placing. These are just some of the many.

 

Actual reasons I have retired...

 

My dog looked hot. She would have actually placed second had I not retired (even without all her points). We had a good run going but the sheep did not want to go into the pen. I elected to walk off the field to get her to water.

 

I sent a young dog on an outrun and she could not find her sheep. I left the post to help her find them. (You must ask the judge ahead of time if this is ok.) It was more important to me that my inexperienced dog understood that if I sent her for sheep, there would be sheep out there, than for the bad experience to continue.

 

Another young dog got confused by set out and was holding the sheep to the set out person. I left the post to walk up the field and give him support, help him with the lift and get the sheep down the field. I wanted him to learn something good from the experience. His next run he placed.

 

My crazy dog is afraid of loud noises. I had the hands down winning run going when a cannon was fired nearby. I immediately retired. The judge asked why, told me I was ahead of any other handler by a big margin and the run was almost over. I told her my dog was noise phobic. Once he hears something like that his work deteriorates and he isn't happy. I had worked hard just to get him to the point of being able to compete and I was not going to risk a regression.

 

Sage's anxiety level combined with a lack of self control could make for some arguments on the trial field. I've retired him plenty of times simply for blowing off commands. This is so he doesn't learn he can ignore commands in a trial setting.

 

Same dog, poor crazy beast, was attacked by sheep during his lift. I found out he had heart disease, causing hesitation and loss of energy. I had retired that run. My dog knew his body was getting weaker and the sheep could sense his loss of confidence, so they attacked (these sheep were quick to turn on a dog). Sage is retired now except for very light duty chores.

[Jumpin Boots]

All the examples above are good ones, and I'm sure there are many more individual cases as well.

 

I commend people who retire at a smart time in their run.

 

There are few things more painful to me then watching a dog sweep a field back and forth in confusion searching for their sheep, while their handler continues to redirect again and again hoping they will find the sheep. Or the stalled out pack of sheep that are standing up to the dog only shutting the dog down while the handler hollers for them to get the sheep moving.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Some of whether a handler retires or doesn't is mindset. Some top handlers practically never retire an open dog, though they may retire a younger. inexperienced dog. Other handlers - I'm one - retire when they or their dog aren't having fun anymore.

 

Donald McCaig

[mum24dog]

All the examples above are good ones, and I'm sure there are many more individual cases as well.

 

I commend people who retire at a smart time in their run.

 

There are few things more painful to me then watching a dog sweep a field back and forth in confusion searching for their sheep, while their handler continues to redirect again and again hoping they will find the sheep. Or the stalled out pack of sheep that are standing up to the dog only shutting the dog down while the handler hollers for them to get the sheep moving.

Even as an outsider I feel the same. A little while ago I was at a nursery trial and one guy and his dog were getting absolutely nowhere and inside I was shouting for him to pull the poor dog.

 

A confused dog that is struggling is obvious whatever the discipline.

[Sue R]

I knew a man who would never retire - he thought it was quitting. I think he missed the point entirely. To retire is to do your dog a service, whether he's hot, frazzled, in over his head, etc. Retiring for the right reasons is looking out for your dog and putting his welfare and future ahead of your ego, and also considerate of the sheep if the retiring is for their sake.

[Mark Billadeau]

I run with a watch and keep a rough estimate in my head of the points already lost during the run. If the run is already out of contention I decide if there is anything to be learned by staying out; like working through an issue with the dog or learning about the sheep for the next run. With my Peg I try hard to remember to retire; at 12.5years she has little to learn. With my others I may stay out longer to work on things. At some point I may get to "what's the point" and then I'll walk.

[juliepoudrier]

In my experience far too many people wait far too long to retire a bad run. It's painful to watch and simply awful for the poor dog (and sometimes sheep as well). I get that they paid their money and drove a long way, but as Sue noted, at that point it's about ego and not about what's best for the dog or the stock.

 

If I am running a youngster, especially, I will be quick to retire because I don't want a dog clearly overfaced, nor do I want a youngster to learn that they can get away with behavior at a trial that would never be allowed at home.

so, especially, when I'm first taking a youngster out in P/N we will more often retire than not if things start to head south.

 

I do have a watch and I do set it for open. Sometimes, though, I don't hear it go off. Usually I will check it if I think I'm getting short on time and need to come up with a strategy to finish the course (for example, if I'm in the shedding ring with 30 seconds on the clock I will take any shed I can get vs. trying to get the perfect shed).

 

J.

[terrecar]

I can see why the handler would have retired her dog in at least one of the cases. The dog was blowing off commands, and when the handler made the decision to retire, the dog had a sort of “what just happened” look on his face (or, I’m projecting, which isn’t unlikely). I remember that in another case, though, I just didn’t have the knowledge to perceive what was happening, which led me to wonder if it was a time issue. More likely it was something else that I couldn’t pick up on. In retrospect, I am wondering if it was the one who (to my infinitely-regressing-on-the-continuum-of-knowing eye) appeared to run well until the end, when the sheep just kept circling and wouldn’t pen. My memory is faulty, so I’m not sure.

 

In that vein, I don’t want to look all pretentious taking notes since I don’t have a sheepdog-in-training, but my short-term memory is bad enough that I am tempted to do just that without worrying about why I feel it is worthwhile for me to learn the theories of something I may never put into practice. It is just interesting.

 

Thanks for your very graciously detailed answers. It makes so much more sense now.

[Alchemist]

Not an Open handler, but I've retired when a dog started to gag on the field (the result of running on a field that had just been mown, causing her to inhale cut grass?). I started to run after her when she started gagging and didn't stop - but then she recovered. Still, it took the wind out of her sails, and she lost the sheep. By walking up the field, I helped her regain control of them.

 

I've retired when a dog that is normally good at taking my flanks (although she'll sometimes overflank) suddenly stops taking them, and her body language starts to scream "insecurity". A good indication that she's hit a "dead spot" (in terms of hearing) on the field. This happened last weekend - Halloween spooks on the field? Anyway, we were very far offline at that point of the crossdrive (that happens when the dog is ignoring the flanks!), and it was shaking the dog's confidence to be out of contact with me, and I felt she needed my help, so I walked away from the post and got close enough so that she was able to regain control of the sheep and take them to the "exhaust". (Only three dogs completed their runs in that class on that day, so I don't think it was the "selective hearing" issue I've seen sometimes. I probably could have held on and timed out and gotten fourth place with SOME sort of number, but who cares about the ribbons? It's all about the dog, and your relationship with it).

 

I've retired with a young dog when the sheep bolted to setout and they were so far away that the dog isn't going to be able to fish them out. I called the dog back to me, got a lot closer to the sheep, sent the dog again, and let it experience the success of fetching the sheep.

 

I've also retired with my other dog when she seemed to feel that her sheep were the one on the adjacent field, not the ones at setout. I called her back, walked up a bit, sent her, and let her bring them to me - then we took them to the exhaust. Your dog *must* trust you that when you send it, there WILL be sheep out there, so you don't want to shake that confidence.

 

I've retired when I felt that the dog (in early stages of trialing) wasn't ready for an outrun of that length - down the dog, walk part of the way to setout, then send the dog - officially counts either as a DQ (I'm too far from the post) or as an RT, depending on the judge. View the run as a training exercise. (I'd never do this with a dog that wasn't good to its sheep).

 

I've retired when I felt the dog wasn't listening. If you don't listen to me, you don't get to work the sheep, I'm taking them away from you. Period.

 

Note that you CAN be disqualified for "failure to progress". So if you feel that your run is failing to progress, you're better off retiring gracefully. (Some say that the difference between a DQ and an RT is "who says 'Thank you!' first").

[Alchemist]

In retrospect, I am wondering if it was the one who (to my infinitely-regressing-on-the-continuum-of-knowing eye) appeared to run well until the end, when the sheep just kept circling and wouldn’t pen.

 

I've scribed at Open trials where the judge will DQ the handler for that sort of thing. It counts as "failure to progress". Other judges will thank you when you've run out of pen points but it's not a DQ - they let you keep your points up to the pen, they're really just telling you that you should view it as "time's up". Bottom line - if the sheep have circled the pen three times already, you're NOT going to get any pen points, so it makes sense to end the run at that point.

 

Love that you're asking so many questions! I hope you'll come to many more trials!

[Gloria Atwater]

I have been pondering something since my Sunday sheepdog trial tourist trip. This is regarding something I observed Re: having heard time called on a dog/handler team by whoever was keeping time vs. having seen a handler or two make the decision to retire. Do people who opt for the latter usually have a feel for how long they have been on the trial course and retire because they know they will time out; or do they feel their dog is not running well that day and think it is best to take the pressure off; or both; or neither; or something else? Just curious.

 

 

I'm just going to pretty much echo what's already been said, but here goes.

 

Retiring one's run means you get no points for your run. Whether you retire 2 minutes into your run or at the 9 minute and 30 seconds mark, it's still no score. Just an RT on the scoreboard. People do this when something about the run is not going well, whether the dog is misbehaving or not listening or if the sheep or the weather are a problem.

 

I've retired for numerous reasons, including sheep going on the fight, sheep bolting towards the exhaust pen and dog can't get them back, dog getting too hot, handler getting so freaking nervous and confused she lost track of where she was on the course, (!!!) and dog crossing over on the outrun and being unable to find the sheep at setout. I'm a firm believer that if the run is not going to be competitive AND it's turning detrimental to the sheep or to the dog and/or its training, then just call the whole thing off. There's no point to it and just because I paid $XX in entry fees, just because I paid for a 10 minute run it doesn't mean I need to stay out there for the entire 10 minutes.

 

I absolutely cringe when I see a handler at the post while their dog flounders or runs amuck and they just stand there and whistle. Go help your freaking dog! And if I'm ever That Person, I hope someone will smack me upside the head before the day is over.

 

But there are any number of reasons people choose to retire, all usually having to do with a run and/or a dog not going well.

 

As for time, I try to remember to use my watch, but generally you get a sense for whether you're running short of time. If you know you've futzed around a lot on the fetch or stalled out on the drive, odds are pretty good that you'll be pinched for time at the shed and pen. Sometimes the watch can help you make last-second decisions on how to do something, if you know you've only seconds left. But other times I forget to start or even wear the darned thing.

 

~ Gloria

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers,

 

Luke and June ran in the Sturgis 1 Nursery Finals and at Tommy Wilson's trial that fall I bumped them into open. That was the one time they ran in open for a full year. They were young, talented and I wasn't either. Sheepdog trials are tests of a dog, not schooling sessions and though it is important for a dog to gain experience on different sheep, different terrain, there are better ways.

 

For their schooling year, every time I thought: "Gee, I should enter this trial" I'd ring up a sheepdogging friend and arrange to drive to their farm that afternoon for a training session and repeat in the AM before driving home. After that year Luke and June had miles under their belt and hours and hour - not trial minutes - of training. Cost? About the same or less.

 

Donald McCaig