mum24dog Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Cavalettis have been around at least since I reentered dog training 17 years ago. I would only use them for a dog that was having coordination problems if I ever had one or rehab dictated it. Walking backwards and sideways has been the norm too. I use a wobble cushion for the dog that has HD. Sometimes he gets ROM manipulation too but he hates it. The last two have followed from being recommended by a physio when another dog had a cruciate repair. Walking backwards or sideways is just something I always train. I don't do any of it because someone who has labelled it "conditioning" tells me I should. The most useful thing to me in keeping my dogs injury free and able to function is not overdoing training or exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 This fad is no different than the current "International Handling" fad in the US. Now we have a bunch of people rushing off to seminars and taking online courses who would be better served by concentrating on fundamentals. Unfortunatley, I am unable to locate a sheep emoticon Amen to that. There is a place for learning a different type of handling which, in some situations, can be more effective but we've seen here people throwing in European style turns everywhere and coming seriously unstuck at times. People seem to have lost the ability to discriminate. Some just want a magic wand that will turn them into world beaters and clutch at every new wand shaped straw. Maybe one day they will realise that real understanding comes from the bottom up, it is not fed top down but I won't hold my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted January 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 This fad is no different than the current "International Handling" fad in the US. Now we have a bunch of people rushing off to seminars and taking online courses who would be better served by concentrating on fundamentals. Unfortunatley, I am unable to locate a sheep emoticon Now we are heading off topic, but I have been witnessing this first hand, not in the US but Spain, my club is mostly members who are younger than me and they look at videos on YouTube from top international handlers and attempt to imitate them, what they don't have is the fundamentals of good solid front/rear or even blind cross and don't have an understanding of theory behind why the movement is working. A small group of us have been working together using Daisy Peels online handling and they are thrilled to see the improvements in their dogs performance when they get the timing right. When I got here most of the dogs had issues with knocking bars, but by going back to basics all the competing dogs have shown huge improvements... Makes me happy that my years of spending a small fortune on lessons and seminars can help others as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I really need to be more diligent about working Dean's core strength exercises with him. He enjoys the work, it would likely keep him active much longer, and I simply just should. I guess if fancy equipment would motivate me to stay disciplined I might buy some!! That's actually why I joined that group in the first place. But it really hasn't been a source of motivation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I do some conditioning with Cohen. I own a peanut and depending on what we're working on and whether I think of it, I'll work with her on it 1-3 times per week for 5-10 minutes at a time. Sometimes it's just to tire her out and get her out of my hair. Beyond that, I work hard to keep her core strong (I would say that her core is stronger than most dogs'). I can't really comment on people luring/bribing their dogs to do behaviours that they may not be comfortable with. I know with me sometimes it's a struggle to get her off the peanut. She has a strong history of reinforcement working on it, she has good proprioception and she's a bold dog in general. It's not uncommon for people to use food to bribe a dog to do something it's not comfortable with because the desire for food outweighs the discomfort, but the trainer doesn't recognize that they've pushed their dog too far because they're getting the results they desire. I see the same thing a lot in reactivity behavioural modification. I know it's a little silly, but the fitness itself is as much a hobby as my other dog activities. I don't blow much money on it, but I certainly spend the time. I like knowing that Cohen is in peak physical condition, and I think she enjoys it too. I've attached a photo to this post that shows Cohen in great condition -- it's terribly framed, but it's not often you can see the muscles on a plus coated black dog the way you can here. [E: Okay, the image upload didn't work for some reason. Here's a linked image.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 How do other people feel about that video? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Some people really dislike it. The behaviour was taught slowly and carefully over many years, and with very few reps, so I'm okay with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 It makes me really uncomfortable. I don't understand why anyone would take so much trouble to teach such an unnatural position. I feel exactly the same about the contorted neck position of many UK competitive obedience dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 As long as the dog is happy and engaged and the behavior is built up slowly I don't have an issue with it. I might have issue if it were a larger dog but it seems well suited for a dog that size. I've done some handstand work with Kenzi and she has fun with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 So how does it benefit the dog to be able to do a handstand? How is a dog that can do that "fitter" than one that can't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 It does take more front end and core strength to do a handstand. Dogs are not physically able to do it until the muscles are built up. The same muscles support their spine. I worked on it with my dog as she naturally loves to use her feet and balance on stuff (she'll jump in a rocking chair and move it back and forth). And we had 120" of snow last winter with temps dipping below zero several times. I needed some sort of mind and body engaging work to do with her when other exercise options were limited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 So how does it benefit the dog to be able to do a handstand? How is a dog that can do that "fitter" than one that can't? I think the benefit is general strength building, balance, proprioception and time spent with the handler & dog working together. These aren't specific to handstands. It's just yet another fun thing to do. As for whether a dog that can do that being fitter than one that can't, as you know this would be untrue, as it's dependent on other factors. I linked it because it's a good example of a dog exhibiting strong core strength. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I wonder if some of these behaviors are causing more injuries than they prevent (yeah, i know...YOUR dog never took a lame step in its life). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Blackdawgs- I'd be especially worried about the, for lack of a better word, 'me'-types. People who aren't necessarily regularly involved in these activities but come online, see something, and try and copy it. I can easily imagine 'weekend warriors' who are full of enthusiasm for one or two days a week to get the dog balancing on a ball to make it fitter, but don't do the slowly-conditioning-and-building-up-strength beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I wonder if some of these behaviors are causing more injuries than they prevent (yeah, i know...YOUR dog never took a lame step in its life). For weekend warrior types, yes I think it could. For people who go about it sensibly, I haven't seen anything to suggest that it actually increases injury. I would think that mindless games of fetch would carry a much greater risk of injury than tricks where the dog is much more measured and focused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I would nearly wonder if the potentially increased balance, awareness, and proprioception may (in some dogs at least) make up for the presumed increased risk in injuries (when you're doing things that mean the dog may fall, for example). I can think of a few thundering clowns of dogs who would benefit. Particularly my own when she was younger and 'rapid turning' meant 'deliberately crash into the human to stop and redirect yourself'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackdawgs Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 The point is that there are ways to increase balance, awareness, and proprioception (and core strength) that are more consistant with a dogs natural way of locomotion and that don't involve expensive equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simba Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 Yeah, fair enough. I was more discussing canine conditioning exercises in general, including things like handstands. I've never come across the expensive equipment so it isn't really on my radar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted January 19, 2015 Report Share Posted January 19, 2015 I think the multiple trains of thought that have me a bit confused as to what point different posters are trying to make... So I'll just leave it at this - these are the types of exercises I work on with my dogs Fit to Work videos I'm happy with the results, they're simple, take minimal equipment and recommended by a vet who is familiar with active/working/sporting dogs and board certified in rehab work. I find it helpful when stuff like this is broken down as different activities to try/training for. YMMV Re: handstands - I see nothing wrong with doing something like handstands for a dog who has been properly conditioned and enjoys doing them. I don't think handstands in and of themselves are either more beneficial than a variety of other activities that could be done or more harmful than a variety of other activities that people routinely do with active dogs (including agility, flyball, IPO sports or even stockwork). But if there is good evidence to the contrary I will gladly change my tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Thanks for the link, Mara. Very interesting. I would think like anything, canine conditioning can be taken too far, but I can see how it would be helpful in a preventative sense as well as for rehab. Whether it is something a person does or doesn't want to do with their sound, healthy dog, that is certainly up to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 My first reaction to the handstand was what's it doing to the dog's shoulders and wrists? It is a very unnatural position for a dog. I would be looking for more natural (to the dog) ways to increase core strength of I were in to that. I do teach mine to sit up because that's good for strengthening the back, but I really rely on more natural activities (running over varied terrain, hills, etc,) to improve my dogs' fitness. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 My first reaction to the handstand was what's it doing to the dog's shoulders and wrists? It is a very unnatural position for a dog. I would be looking for more natural (to the dog) ways to increase core strength of I were in to that. I do teach mine to sit up because that's good for strengthening the back, but I really rely on more natural activities (running over varied terrain, hills, etc,) to improve my dogs' fitness. J. I appreciate my dogs much more for their natural ability than for what I can persuade them to do against their nature. I don't like feeling like a puppet master. I love to see dogs run and jump, I don't like circus tricks, not because I think the dog cares, because they don't. Just a gut feeling that it's not right and it's a boundary that should not be crossed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I appreciate my dogs much more for their natural ability than for what I can persuade them to do against their nature. I don't like feeling like a puppet master. I love to see dogs run and jump, I don't like circus tricks, not because I think the dog cares, because they don't. Just a gut feeling that it's not right and it's a boundary that should not be crossed. So dogs who do silly tricks for treats are puppets? But dogs who swing between vertical poles in the ground are doing something natural? Dog games are dog games. Not everyone lives near hills or has the ability to allow a lot of off leash running and playing for conditioning. And they do get injured doing those "natural" activities as well as doing silly tricks (says the owner of a dog who got injured chasing a squirrel in the yard). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I have to admit my reaction to an aversion to dogs doing silly tricks, from a person who does dog agility, was mostly confusion. There's not a lot nature about dog agility, frankly. I mean I do dog agility, and the motions can be equated with some things dogs do naturally but that's true of everything up to headstands, too. Because it's not the motion or position, it's the speed, duration, and repetitiveness for EVERYTHING from a dog who does weave poles or a teeter, to a dog who does a handstand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airbear Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 So dogs who do silly tricks for treats are puppets? But dogs who swing between vertical poles in the ground are doing something natural? Yes. This. How can one look with scorn at dogs doing handstands and sit pretties and the like, in the name of fitness, while admitting to asking her dogs to contort between poles spaced 24" apart, jump hurdles, and ride a see-saw? For reals? I will admit that I have enrolled my Rex dog in an online canine conditioning class, taught by a rehab vet. We are learning exercises to help him strengthen his core, to work his psoas, and to increase flexibility of the front end. My fancy equipment consists of a few boxes from the Dollar Store, my exercise ball which had been languishing in storage for years, and a Fit Paws balance pad that we won in a raffle. I signed up for the class because my dog will be turning 8 this year, he is quite active in both herding and agility, and I want to keep him as fit as possible. He has not, knock on wood, sustained any injuries either through competition, or through being a dog. Why do exercises? Why not just say he's athletic enough without this silliness? I don't know. Why did all of the organizations rubberize contact equipment? A truly agile dog shouldn't need extra traction. Why have the jumps changed in design to safer jump cups and no fixed bar? A scopey dog should learn to close the eye nearest the jump cup. We don't need the wider tunnel bag holders. Use the kind that distort the shape of the tunnel, and hope that athletic large dogs know how to duck whilst travelling at 7 yards per second. Now you kids get off my lawn! <shakes fist in anger> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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