chene Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 So back story, we have been attending drop in puppy socialization classes with Aed since we got him. Once a week. There's no formal training or anything, just a bunch of puppies supervised in an x-pen while the main trainer talks about calming signals, stress signals, play moves, interactions, etc. The main trainer has always been great. I don't agree with her about absolutely everything but for the most part we're on the same page. The "assistant trainer" is the one we have issue with. He seems to have disliked Aed from day 1, although the main trainer is always gushing over how good Aed is and how far he's come since his first poor-impulse-control interaction at eight weeks old. Tonight was our first night since mid-December because of Christmas. The main trainer was absent for some reason. A very young lab was in the x pen and Aed was on the outside. When the dog approached Aed, something happened. They were both doing play signals, really obvious ones like play bows, but Aed was snarling a bit. It didn't sound like his serious snarl, but I rarely hear him snarl in play. The pup went away and came back, same reaction. I was trying to get Aed's attention to see what was going on, but then the assistant trainer came over. Aed jumped up on the x-pen out of excitement, and the trainer very angrily said "off". Aed's command is down, not off, and I've told the trainer this before. When Aed didn't respond to off, he grabbing him by the leash and jerked and popped it a few times, then held Aed off the ground, choking him. By this point I had grabbed the leash and told the trainer I wasn't comfortable with that. He told us that we needed to have a harder hand with Aed or he'd get out of control. Aed fell to the ground and couldn't stop hacking and coughing, but then was fine and calm and let the trainer pet him. I got home and immediately emailed the head trainer, who owns the company, asking if there were any days of the week that Francois wasn't at puppy socialization (they do them five days a week) so we could attend that one. I explained briefly and told her we could talk in person if she wanted all the details. So we'll see how that goes. So, story/rant over. It was good to get that all out. I can't lie, I was furious. It was the start of the class and we left immediately. I got in the car and just cried and held Aed. He was hacking every once in a while in the car, but he seems to be fine now. Anyways, the point of this post isn't just to rant. While it's obvious that the trainer acted on emotion, punished the dog (in Aed's eyes) for not responding to a command he didn't know, and used an entirely uncalled for method, I still want to know whether he had a point. How harsh should I have been with Aed snarling at the puppy? Does anyone have an idea as to what was going on? Is there something I should be doing to help stop aggression developing, other than obedience and impulse control and such? I'm just a bit at a loss. I'm not a trainer, so I can't say the trainer was totally wrong, even if bits were. One last thing. Aed has spend the past few weeks at my parents house with their friendly but dominant and poorly socialized little dog. He's a huge bully but him and Aed played (and fought) regularly. Little snarly fights I mean. So that definitely could have had an effect on the way Aed reacted to the lab tonight. But he's never just snarled for no reason before. Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 There was absolutely nothing appropriate about the way that "trainer" treated your dog. I would say run, don't walk, as far away from that facility as you can get. Was that person's life or safety at stake because your puppy jumped up on the x-pen? No way. The response that you describe was violence toward your dog, plain and simple. It was uncalled for and inappropriate. No "socialization" is worth subjecting your puppy to the risk of such treatment. I would get a vet exam as soon as possible, and I would bill the facility for the exam and any necessary treatment. What an absolutely sickening experience. I hope Aed did not sustain injury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Ohh, I am so sorry to hear your pup was mistreated like that! I hope he is ok. Not being there, I can't say what was happening with the lab, but the trainer was not only extremely harsh but I don't understand what on earth he thought he was teaching Aed by stringing him up like that. I would have been absolutely furious to see any dog, much less my own treated like that. Border Collies respond well to calm corrections, positive reinforcement (which can be praise and pats), clear expectations and consistency. You can be very firm without being rough or angry. If there are aggression issues and I am not saying there are (again, I wasn't there, it could have been play or Aed being overwhelmed by the lab's play style), harsh corrections and pain can often make things worse. If Aed had been my puppy, I would have separated him from the lab and let it go at that. Yes, it is possible that Aed has picked up some new bad habits after spending time with a pushy little bully. But that still doesn't mean he deserved any of that treatment. Please let us know how your conversation with the head trainer goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I would have been absolutely livid if a trainer had done this to my puppy. I don't think you overreacted at all. There are other things the trainer could have done, such as tried redirecting Aed, before jumping into any kid of correction, especially such a harsh one. If a redirection didn't work, I'd have just scooped Aed up and walked away with him, telling him what a silly puppy he was being. If it were me, I also wouldn't be waiting for the head trainer to ask you for details about what happened. I be sure to tell her, and to let her know that I wouldn't be coming back if Francois were going to be there. Just my 2 cents, FWIW . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Aed is probably not scarred for life, but he is your dog. If you don't want those methods used on him, it's your right to say no. I would also be angry if someone did that to my pup. Odds are, he was snarling at the Lab out of nervousness and fear. In that case, no correction is appropriate. I would have removed him from the situation. It's entirely possible he was snarling because he was being a jerk. A safe way to work on the situation without being certain of the why is to use a soft verbal correction ("that's enough" for example), call him away from the Lab (use a line or leash to pull him away if needed) and praise when he gets to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'd also be really concerned that Francois' harsh punishment could provoke some dog reactivity in Aed. I'd work really hard in the coming days and weeks to be sure he has some really good experiences with other dogs. I like Kristine's suggestion of a vet check with the bill sent to the facility's owner. She needs to understand that there are consequences to allowing such abuse to occur in her facility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Thank you for the kind responses. I will wait to see what the head trainer says before I make any decisions, although if Aed shows any signs of suffering from what happened of course I'll go to the vet. Based on the way I worded my email I am fairly confident she'll want to hear about what happened. I cannot imagine she would approve of his actions and I don't think he would have done it if she'd been around. we'll see. That's a good point about the reactivity, too. The reason I'm not running away from the facility unless the head trainer condones his actions is that it's the best and in some ways the only good socialization company in Victoria. Especially for puppies. But I'll look around for others too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 There are not words in any language on earth to describe how absolutely furious I would be if anyone did this to any dog of mine. You were way, way more restrained than I would ever be at anyone choking my dog! Not comfortable? That jackass would have had a Marine Corp-grade, full metal jacket, nuclear-level face full of me in a full blown rage!!!!Do not ever, ever let that sorry excuse for a human being near your dog again. Unless your puppy - a PUPPY! - was in the act of killing someone's poodle, there is no need in the world for that level of correction. Good lord, I am just livid to even think of it - and I don't normally have a temper.Keep in touch with the lead instructor and if they don't back you 100%, let your feet do the talking for you. I'm wondering as it is about what kind of "impulse control" they had to talk about in 8 week old puppy ... Sorry if this is over the top, but I've known and heard of dogs damaged by being choked off the ground by a leash. This is, in my book, an entirely unforgivable incident and there is no way anyone can ever talk it around to being right.My sympathies to you and little Aed. Give him extra loves from me, and do watch for any signs of coughing or difficulty swallowing.~ Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borasaurus Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Oh my gosh, what an unnecessary correction! How did he even get hired? His job as a "trainer" isn't to cause injuries or a need for more training! I swear, some people have the worst power highs. I wonder how he would like it if the head trainer punished him in the same way. He obviously doesn't know borders (or even dogs themselves). BCs don't even need stringent correction as people have mentioned. And a puppy, too! I hope you and Aed are okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 OMG! My reaction is all of the above - and I particularly like Gloria's post. That would be my reaction. And to prove my point, I like the idea of going to a vet to get a check-up on Aed and giving the bill to the head trainer. (Who, if it was me, would require the assistant trainer to pay it. And if he refuses, fire him.) And if you don't like the response of the head trainer to this situation, social media is a great way to get the word out. The above actions will probably burn some bridges, and you may not be welcome at that facility in the future - so I would think about the long-term consequences. For me, my actions would depend on how pi$$ed off I was. Sometimes I cool off, and sometimes my anger builds. Out of curiousity, do you know any of the other clients well enough to talk to them to get their opinion of what happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Dear Doggers, Roxanne wrote, and I concur: "I'd also be really concerned that Francois' harsh punishment could provoke some dog reactivity in Aed. I'd work really hard in the coming days and weeks to be sure he has some really good experiences with other dogs." Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Publicity is a very powerful instrument as I'm sure the owner of the facility knows, but it needs to be used fairly. We only have Chene's account of the incident and an opportunity to answer the accusations should be given. I would be a lot more forceful in my communication with her than Chene seems to have been to ram home how shocked and angry she is. Give the owner the opportunity to deal with the issue but if she gets the brush off then all bets should be off. I'm not sure what I think about the set up of the sessions generally. I would expect a puppy class to comprise some educational talk on relevant subjects, which seems to be the case here, and some practical training advice rather than just putting pups in a pen together, whether supervised or not. Good classes tend to be structured and the instructors get to know the dogs and I can't see how this cold be achieved on a drop in basis. I get the impression that this is just an opportunity for dogs to meet others if they don't get to socialise much in daily life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmbc Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 you have every right to be furious and it sounds like this assistant knows nothing of dogs and should not be there. I had the exact same thing happen to my dog, and as Donald and Roxann said, I did have dog reactivity backlash to work through after that. A severe correction like that is never appropriate for any puppy. In our case, the women that did it was not allowed to train there any more. It had not been her first time doing it. Also, if this is a class that has no training, I am not sure why this person is angry about untrained dogs or even why he is there. Plus if the only instruction is calming signals and non- verbal communication between dogs, this assistant should know that Aed's growling may not have been inappropriate (not saying it was or wasn't) but growling is also a form of communication and it is not always bad. just like people, dogs don't like every dog they meet. Aed may have simply been trying to say, hey rude dog, leave me alone, he might have been trying to say it before the growl happened, but the other dog may not have been 'listening'. I would not over analyze what happened between Aed and the other dog. One time growling at another dog does not mean Aed is aggressive. I hope you get a satisfactory resolution. Sorry this happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Dear Doggers, Mum writes (in part): "Publicity is a very powerful instrument as I'm sure the owner of the facility knows, but it needs to be used fairly. We only have Chene's account of the incident and an opportunity to answer the accusations should be given." It's worth noting that any trainer (or facility) with a (justified) reputation for animal abuse will swiftly go out of business. In many jurisdictions, strangling a puppy is illegal and there are sanctions (though rarely enforced). Ms. Chene should talk to others in the what-ever-it-was class and if they saw what she saw, she should confront the facility's owner for her explanation before going nuclear. Ms. Chene was quite right to remove her pup. The next steps are less obvious. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosikins Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I'd be so furious too...and I don't think I'd react nearly as politely. If you can't handle a dog jumping on you or not listening, you shouldn't be a trainer! Our dog trainer tells our girl to get off and if she doesn't listen because she's just too excited, the trainer turns her back and walks away (and the trainer is a pretty short lady so she's usually nose to nose with a tall dog). Callie doesn't like to be ignored so she approaches nicely and sits to get petted! As for the snarling, maybe Aed is developing his playing personality as he's getting older or trying to instigate the other pup to play? Callie used to be really quiet and now she has two snarls. One is the "I don't like you" or "I don't like what's going on" snarl and it sounds mean and is usually accompanied by bared teeth and raised fur on her back and rump. The other sounds pretty ferocious too, but has a totally different pitch and tone. She usually only does it with dogs she's really familiar with and they look so terrifying wrestling and biting all over each other, but if you look closely, they're actually taking turns pinning each other down and chasing each other...all while making the most absurd snarling, snorting, and grunting sounds. It's really good that you can read your dog and listen for the real snarl. I think that their body language is more telling than the sounds they make...Who knows what kind of strange noise is going to come out when they want to play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Re: the social media or publicity comment I made. I realize I wasn't clear. I would not go to that level unless all other avenues to resolve the situation had failed, and if you felt that the owner was not dealing with the situation in good faith. I am fully aware that it can be a powerful tool. I would definitely set up an appointment with her to describe what happened. I wouldn't wait for her to contact me "if she wanted all the details". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 It's true, maybe the trainer saw something I didn't see in Aed's actions, which is why I was asking about it. I'm hesitant to do anything in retaliation until I know his side of the story, which I'm hoping I'll get if I talk to the head trainer.I'm not actually sure if anyone else saw it. We were on the far side from everyone else and most people were watching their puppies. I'm just not sure how I'd talk to anyone about it without having to go to one of those sessions where he'd be there.re: the class, though it is officially drop-in almost everyone just chooses a day or two and comes on that day every week. We typically know everyone there pretty well. There is a training topic every night that is discussed, as well, but I really value it for how well they have taught me to understand my dog's body language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 There are not words in any language on earth to describe how absolutely furious I would be if anyone did this to any dog of mine. You were way, way more restrained than I would ever be at anyone choking my dog! Not comfortable? That jackass would have had a Marine Corp-grade, full metal jacket, nuclear-level face full of me in a full blown rage!!!! Do not ever, ever let that sorry excuse for a human being near your dog again. Unless your puppy - a PUPPY! - was in the act of killing someone's poodle, there is no need in the world for that level of correction. Good lord, I am just livid to even think of it . . . That is exactly what I wanted to say, Gloria! Very well said, indeed!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 It's true, maybe the trainer saw something I didn't see in Aed's actions, which is why I was asking about it. I'm hesitant to do anything in retaliation until I know his side of the story, which I'm hoping I'll get if I talk to the head trainer. It is wise to give the head trainer a chance to rectify the situation. If she takes action to ensure that such things do not happen at her facility again, then I would not personally take any public action. But if it is swept under the rug, if she takes his part, if this is acceptable to her . . . I would certainly make it known to the public - far and wide, not out of retaliation, but so people can make a fully informed choice about the facility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MossyOak Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 It is wise to give the head trainer a chance to rectify the situation. If she takes action to ensure that such things do not happen at her facility again, then I would not personally take any public action. But if it is swept under the rug, if she takes his part, if this is acceptable to her . . . I would certainly make it known to the public - far and wide, not out of retaliation, but so people can make a fully informed choice about the facility. Oh, yes, without a doubt. I would feel really uncomfortable with letting people entrust their dogs to that man unknowingly. A lot of people don't know what is acceptable, either, and if a trainer tells them that hurting a dog is necessary they could easily believe it. Also, those who are saying they wouldn't have reacted as politely as I did, I'm not sure if Francois would have agreed. He heard the fury in my voice, and I have no doubt that it's the first time anyone has interfered with his "training" of their dog. He was rattled, he obviously wasn't sure what to say, so ended up retaliating with an attack at us, telling us we needed to use a harder hand. Sometimes it doesn't take much to get the point across. He knows how I feel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Chene, unless Aed was doing serious bodily harm to the lab, there is no reason to respond so forcefully to a dog, much less a puppy. And your description is the trainer strung up your puppy because he jumped up and wouldn't get off. That is abuse. The only thing the dog learns from that type of treatment is people can hurt him. I am also curious about your comment that Aed had poor impulse control at eight weeks. What was he doing to earn that description? At nine weeks, Quinn was all impulse with the attention span of a strobe light. Unless I wanted him to stop doing something like eating my carpet. Then he was very focused. I called him a coyote, but he was really just a busy Border Collie baby who needed supervision, redirection and sometimes a spell in his crate. I am not suggesting you retaliate. But if it were me, I would want to talk to the head trainer about why her assistant was so angry and brutal with your puppy. And I would think hard about continuing at that facility. If the trainer wasn't totally appalled by that man's actions, something isn't right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 I have my young pup in a puppy k drop-in class (8-16 weeks) a couple of times a week as well. I have taken all my pups to this class, as I think it is super important for my border collies to learn that other breeds are still dogs since they will mostly be interacting only with other border collies when they get older. Anyway, the lead instructor and her assistants spend the majority of their time talking about redirecting and ignoring inappropriate behaviors at this age because they are babies right now and it is pretty easy to scare them (as opposed to teaching them any kind of lessons). I will definitely tell my puppy no or interrupt his behavior with a "hey," but that's about the extent of it for now. I am really sorry this happened to your sweet pup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chene Posted January 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Chene, unless Aed was doing serious bodily harm to the lab, there is no reason to respond so forcefully to a dog, much less a puppy. And your description is the trainer strung up your puppy because he jumped up and wouldn't get off. That is abuse. The only thing the dog learns from that type of treatment is people can hurt him. I am also curious about your comment that Aed had poor impulse control at eight weeks. What was he doing to earn that description? At nine weeks, Quinnwas all impulse with the attention span of a strobe light. Unless I wanted him to stop doing something like eating my carpet. Then he was very focused. I called him a coyote, but he was really just a busy Border Collie baby who needed supervision, redirection and sometimes a spell in his crate. I am not suggesting you retaliate. But if it were me, I would want to talk to the head trainer about why her assistant was so angry and brutal with your puppy. And I would think hard about continuing at that facility. If the trainer wasn't totally appalled by that man's actions, something isn't right there. Oh, I understand, believe me. I told the head trainer that her assistant had hurt my pup and acted in ways that were completely disturbing. I asked her if that was the company's policy. If she doesn't answer and want the details, then that's answer enough for me. In terms of the impulse control, it wasn't so much that he had worse impulse control than any other puppy, it was that he would play for a few seconds and then turn into a snarly snippy mess. He needed to learn how to take breaks and how not to get so worked up. A lot of that was done through impulse control training (or so I'm told, and we did do a lot of impulse control training), as well as just having more experience around other dogs, I think. Is that wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosikins Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 There is nothing the trainer could have seen in a puppy to warrant choking it!!! There is no grey area, he shouldn't be training puppies period. I really agree with MossyOak. The trainer's reaction, regardless of what he saw or thought your dog was about to do, seems too harsh and downright abusive! You'd have probably noticed if your dog suddenly switched into kill mode... Good luck with this situation. Hopefully you get a response from the head trainer. And if not, you seem like you'll protect your pup regardless. He looks to you for safety and security and based on this post and your previous posts about Aed, it sounds like he has a very nice life with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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