Alchemist Posted January 7, 2015 Report Share Posted January 7, 2015 Patrick's my favorite clinician. Now if *I* could only remember to put into action all of his suggestions.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 If I remember even half of the things I learned that apply to where I am now... I'm too new to know if he will be my favorite, but he definitely matches a lot of my own training philosophy, so I understood almost all of what he was explaining even for the more advanced dogs. I was afraid it would be a whole lot of do this, do that, and no why do we do this. I need to know why. I really liked how he explained the connection from what I'm working on now to how it affects advanced work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers, It's a long road. Fortunately, it's always intriguing, sometimes fascinating and once or twice a glimpse of God. There is probably no way of remembering half of the new information you get at a clinic. I'm lucky,in two days to remember and apply two new infos. One doesn't THINK when working a dog one ACTS. If I can be proactive by a quarter of a second on the work field within my mental map of what previous sheep have done on this ground and how they've reacted to different pressures I'm satisfied. One can understand rationally what one has not taught the body/mind/spirit to do. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Oh, that is so true! I always find myself automatically falling into the old patterns, unless I go out with the one thing I want to change or work on specifically on my mind. One of the things that Patrick mentioned was when your dog needs a correction and isn't taking it, like for ignoring commands, escalate the correction, but keep the command the same, teaching the dog to listen for your command is the goal, not learning to shout louder, but I still find myself repeating commands in an ever increasing volume. I'm working on it. It will be a work in progress for many a year, but that's the kind of project I like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'm still working on choosing the right tone of voice. Sweet tone (in general) for commands - harsher for corrections, but only as harsh as is necessary for the dog and the situation. Less sweet (not nasty, but "full of confidence/assertiveness") if I need to instill confidence in a particular dog that yes, they CAN walk up to that ewe that's facing them without getting "stuck" or blowing their cool. Of course knowing something intellectually and consistently being able to put it into practice are often different things, for me at least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Dear Aspiring Sheepdoggers, I know of two schools of thought. Derek Scrimageour suggests an unemotional command for general purposes with a "sweet command" for encouragement and a "harsh command" for reproof. Others suggest that you don't vary the "unemotional" command but use your favorite verbal correction as harshly as necessary. I don't think there's a right answer. After reading The Genius of Dogs I am convinced that our dog/human language can be far more complex than our presumptions for it. Early (pet) dog training was dominated by the Prussians who, from their culture believed one sharp command for one response, give no command you cannot reinforce and do not repeat a command. Shepherds (who didn't get into the training book business until after WW2) had rather different usage patterns. (I remember the first sheepdog trial I attended where handlers cried "Lie Down!" and the dog didn't "Lie down" and nobody seemed at all excited about it. I've had experiences with my dogs that convinced me they understand quite a bit of ordinary speech. More dramatically I remember Roy Johnson with Roscoe (Roy's first and brilliant dog). Their conversation was surprising even to we Shepherds. I remember Roy at a tight spot at the Blueridge Trial saying, "Dude! Don't let 'em fool you!" (Roscoe didn't.) Later Roy did an impromptu brace demonstration inside a horse arena at Frying Pan Park with Roscoe and June (his daughter). Roy didn't use different whistle commands for each dog, nor did he preface his commands to let them know for whom it was intended. He said, "Away to me" ( June) and June took it and "Away to me" (Roscoe) and Roscoe took it. Of course, it's a complex conversation of body language, tone and mutual understanding of the work and one another but I am working on my language skills these days. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Roy talks to his dogs and they understand. I love watching and listening.My dogs seem to listen and understand way more than I expect, and sometimes not. Rather like people... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxi Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 For me, it's not only been about learning how to talk properly and move appropriately so that my dogs understand me (maybe that should really be 'choose to listen to me'). I think my major breakthrough with stockwork came when I started to really listen to what my dogs and, just as importantly, the sheep were saying to me and to each other. some days I feel I'm getting there, but usually I realise how much I still have to learn...perhaps one day. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 My dogs definitely get more of what I say to them than I expect. They impress me regularly by what they understand. And I've seen where my propensity for trying to micromanage my dogs is completely at odds with good stockwork. They definitely understand stock better than I ever will. And they know when I shouldn't have opened my mouth at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 You've got that right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etlai Posted January 26, 2015 Report Share Posted January 26, 2015 Hello bc.org; newcomer here. I fall into this thread in the following way: I'm also located in central FL (Daytona Beach, to be exact) and I entirely echo the sentiments expressed in this thread's original post: sheepdog opportunities here are few. I've been in contact with Gideon's Girl via PMs and she encouraged me to post here for public display of demand for handlers/breeders info for our area (I was fearful of hijacking the thread after it ran its course). We don't seem to have much online information for activities and individuals in the area both capable and willing for this sport/activity/lifestyle. If there's a secret nesting of participants, please let yourselves be known! Otherwise, perhaps such pros as Mr McCaig et al. may entertain seasonal visits to our neck of the woods to share in this addiction of working dogs EDIT: when stating resources being scant, I've scoured mainly: littlehats.net bordercollie.org americanbordercollie.org handlerspost.com usbcha.com gsda.org and all of their listed links within the parent site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Maybe some people have gotten so concerned with the commands and how to give them they have not learned how to communicate with their dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Dear Doggers, In New England or Virginia you needn't travel far to find a trainer or a trial. Some other places it can be harder. I have noticed elsewhere in this forum that many aspiring sheepdoggers hope to find a top trainer no more than an hour from their home. For a clinician I particularly want to learn from, I'll drive 8 hours learn, overnight, learn the next morning and drive home. That's not real unusual. When Bill Berhow started, he was working in Florida and racing motorcyles. When he got interested in sheepdogs, he and his dog jumped on his bike and he drove 10 hours to Bill Dillard in Alabama for the weekend, driving home Sunday night. I guess Bill Berhow wanted to learn. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 For me, it's not only been about learning how to talk properly and move appropriately so that my dogs understand me (maybe that should really be 'choose to listen to me'). I think my major breakthrough with stockwork came when I started to really listen to what my dogs and, just as importantly, the sheep were saying to me and to each other. Along these lines, a major mind-shifting experience for me came from a session with Kent Kuykendall. (Kent has pretty much retired from giving lessons now, so some of you may only know of him from his excellent whistle tape.) We were working with a youngster I had recently put on whistles. Kent worked the dog for a while, using my whistles and several variations of them as he went along. He would occasionally comment something like, "For this dog, Whistle X means ____________." "You'll get better results with this dog if you use Whistle Y for what you're asking for here." I realized he was not just shaping the dog to the whistles, he was shaping the whistles to the dog, observing how the dog reacted to all these variations so he could understand what the dog's natural reaction was to each, how the dog understood each. Sort of negotiating the meaning of the whistles -- working them out together rather than just imposing them. Here was yet another thing that was there to be seen, but up til then I did not see it. Etlai, sorry for the reverse hijack. I wish I knew someone in FL to suggest for you. There's no doubt that working regularly with a trainer is optimal, but that wasn't available to many when we were starting out. We did the best we could with one or two clinics a year and blundering along as best we could the rest of the time. We were the worse for it, but we eventually got there, more or less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 For a clinician I particularly want to learn from, I'll drive 8 hours learn, overnight, learn the next morning and drive home. That's not real unusual. But it's not easy either! Freedom to travel is a wonderful perk of semi-retirement. This past weekend I drove from San Diego up to Santa Rosa for a two-day clinic with Derek Scrimgeour. Derek had a lot to offer, and I hope I can retain and use the information and advice. Clinics are great learning experiences, and for me, sometimes working in a different environment with a different teacher can help me more clearly see something I already was supposed to know! A highlight this weekend was spending time just thinking about sheep and their motivations. If you have the opportunity to travel to a clinic, I'd very much recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etlai Posted January 27, 2015 Report Share Posted January 27, 2015 Etlai, sorry for the reverse hijack. I wish I knew someone in FL to suggest for you. There's no doubt that working regularly with a trainer is optimal, but that wasn't available to many when we were starting out. We did the best we could with one or two clinics a year and blundering along as best we could the rest of the time. We were the worse for it, but we eventually got there, more or less. Not at all. I was hesitant to join this thread as it had run its course before I gained access to these forums. If anything you got it back on course. Part of this I do suppose is learning what most in the community consider 'normal'. I am not expecting that trainers will be within an hour as Mr McCaig alludes (curses, those of you living in Dallas/Ft Worth, or western PA, or central NC!), but was hoping to keep trips under a 4 or 5 hr radius (economic considerations are a reality after all). Time to take another look at the monthly budget... I understand both my ability and/or willingness to travel directly dictates what opportunities I will enjoy. That being said, I also had hoped the frequency of trials was more than 3 per year. But again if this is 'normal' for those starting out, so be it. I'll cope, learn from what's available. We all do, right? Lastly, since announcing my presence echoing Gideon's Girl's (double ' usage proper here?) sentiments in the OP, I have received PMs with help and pointing me in unadvertised directions. If nothing else, it has already paid to become a vocal member here, rather than just a quiet background reader. Reverse-reverse-hijack away! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted January 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I was happy to drive 10-11 hours to Mississippi for a Patrick Shannahan clinic. I think part of the problem is not just the remote location, but being total beginners, we don't have the contacts, so we don't hear about many opportunities. I am extremely grateful for the PM that led me to attending the clinic, because otherwise, I wouldn't have known anything about it. Hopefully, I will make more contacts at the coming trials. And hopefully, over time, I'll learn all those place to look for opportunities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted January 28, 2015 Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 Gideon's Girl, I suggest that you bookmark the websites for as many nearby border collie groups as you can find. The handler's association keeps track of upcoming trials (http://www.usbcha.com/sheep/upcoming_trials.html), but as far as I know there isn't a similar centralized spot to keep up on clinics, fun days, etc. I live in San Diego in the winter and Oregon in the summer. I keep a pretty regular eye on the web sites for WASH (Washington Association of Stockdog Handlers), OSDS (Oregon Sheep Dog Society), Norcal (Northern California Working Sheepdog Association), and SJVBCA (San Joaquin Valley Border Collie Association). I also look at High Desert Sheepdog Association and Utah Stockdog Association websites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted January 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2015 I've only found one stockdog association for the Southeast, but I'll keep looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted January 30, 2015 Report Share Posted January 30, 2015 Lots of clinics are advertised on sheepdog-L (Yahoo listserv). A great place to monitor. In my area (Maryland), many clinics, and most if not all trials within a reasonable driving distance are also listed on Robin French's Handler's Post. I used to think rats, I'm going to have to drive a whole hour or an hour and a half to get to the nearest sheepdog trial, or lessons with a qualified handler. Now I realize how fortunate I am to have several trials within an hour or an hour and a half, an Open handler/mentor willing to work with me who lives less than an hour away, and Patrick Shannahan clinics at least twice a year that are only half an hour from where I live. I have met handlers who drove all the way from Ontario, Canada to attend clinics in central Maryland. I'm not sure I'd be able to do that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted January 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2015 I love to drive, so I don't mind that part of it. It's arranging the grown kids' schedules, so the farm is cared for that is usually the hardest part. Georgia, South Carolina, and even most of North Carolina(maybe all) are in range for me, if I can make the date at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 So, is anyone coming down for the C54 trial this coming weekend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etlai Posted February 8, 2015 Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 I am, but you knew that already Bringing notepads and cameras too. This is gonna be an awesome weekend, an awesome month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gideon's girl Posted February 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2015 I haven't got an answer from them on what time they start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etlai Posted February 9, 2015 Report Share Posted February 9, 2015 Responding here for public visibility. All 3 days will start at 8am and run until completion. 54 dogs slotted each day, Nursery on Mon. Should be a grand ol' time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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