"Willful" or "stubborn" dogs

[Maralynn]

I've been thinking about this lately. Can dogs be "willful" or "stubborn"? I totally think they can be pushy, opportunistic and persistant. But the idea of stubborn or willful seem to have conotations of "me" against "them" and I've always assumed that any behavior may be classified as such just means the dog either needs more training, more consistency, the owner needs to back up/become more clear in training or there's some sort of fear/anxiety in play. IOW, there's some underlying issue with dogs that might be classified as stubborn or willful. Thoughts?

[G. Festerling]

Not sure I buy into splitting hairs. But will full....yes. I have one. I don't perceive it as a them against me....just a "my ideas may not fit their current agenda". Focus front and center on the word current. Their motivations for their actions are legit for them. So are mine. And fact is, sometimes they don't line up.

[Cass C]

I believe that when people are calling a dog stubborn or willful they are referring to dogs that need a lot more motivation than an eager to please dog.

 

Some dogs are known for their eagerness to please (i.e. in general golden retrievers and a good share border collies), which means that it takes very little to get them to do what you want. For some even a pat on the head and a "Good girl" are all they require as a reward for a wanted behavior. Both of my dogs fall into this category and were a breeze to train because they just wanted to make me happy. All they require for reinforcement is for me to pet them and tell them they did a good job, although they certainly wouldn't turn down a treat if I offered it.

 

Other dogs are known as stubborn or willful breeds (i.e. in general Huskies and bull dogs), which require a lot more motivation to do what you want. They require something of high value to them such as a hot dog or their favorite toy before they listen. They don't seem to really care if you tell them they are a good dog and pet them, because they want something to make it worth their while to listen. Often stubborn or willful breeds are not as quick to learn new behaviors or tricks. My sister has a husky that is a good dog, but you won't see it obey her unless it has a high value reward waiting for it. It took her using the same techniques as me quite a while longer to teach it basic obedience than it took either of my dogs.

[schrevolution]

I'm not sure if Ziggy is truly "stubborn" but he is certainly determined to lay on the sofa. It's not even that he waits until I'm out of the room, he'll leap up right next to me even though he knows he's going to get pulled back down a second later, although maybe I've allowed him to see it as a game? I'm assuming it's my fault somehow anyway, that and the foster family before me whose pictures of him before he was adopted all have him on the sofa

[Nathan]

I don't know if I would describe their behaviors as stubborn. I believe their doggy desires sometimes outweigh their desire to please us... My girl lives to stand at the door and bark at people coming to the house, even though she knows I want her in her bed patiently waiting to greet our visitors. Never viewed it as her against me, perhaps instead it is her desire against my own. Translation:it's actually my own inner battle bc I let the behavior take place all those years ago.

[NorthfieldNick]

Oh, my old Lu, a mutt of uncertain origin, was most certainly both willful and stubborn. She was as smart & quick to learn as my Border Collies, and she knew plenty of stuff. She just... chose to ignore it most of the time. She would torment a dog-trainer friend of mine, completely ignoring (not even blowing off, just downright ignoring) his attempts at correction or behavior modification. Half the time, if you asked her to do something, she'd give you this look like, "I know what you want, I just don't feel like it." And walk away. She'd persist in attempting something she wanted so hard, she wore you down until she got it. She put BC persistence to shame.

 

Lu was a sweet, sweet dog, rarely caused trouble, and was pretty much always within 5 feet of me. She'd been feral/stray and then in a hoarding situation, and I have no doubt that she would have survived just fine on her own. I dearly loved that dog, and I put up with a lot from her that I wouldn't have if she'd been truly "badly" behaved. Sure, she almost never did what I wanted, but it wasn't such a big deal when what she wanted was pretty much harmless. I miss that damn dog!

[Tilly's Handler]

Being new to Border Collies I have had the feeling that my dog is both of those things . Sometimes request for action instant response other times standing there stare and ignore command while making direct eye contact.

I know she has heard command because if i stand there and wait eventually she will do it

[Shetlander]

My Lhasa is probably the epitome of what people consider a willful dog. Chili is irrepressible with extremely strong opinions and it can be a challenge to change his mind. That said, he has been mainly easy to train because he is so motivated by food, toys and attention. He is also monkey smart. Sometimes I just need to out think him a bit. He is quite obedient, devoted to me and likes being told he is a good boy. He IS a good boy, just a tad headstrong at times.

[Mom of Mya]

Our American Eskimo certainly had a mind of his own. We had never had a dog we could not train but that dog knew what you were asking him but he rarely did it as a pup anyways. He would get out of anything and everything we tried. He loved to run. Enclosed fence did not keep him, he chewed through a steel cable. He knew how to open the door to the house. He watched my husband screw the metal thing in the ground to attach a chain to and as soon as he left, used his mouth and walked the opposite way to unscrew it out of the ground. We called him Houdini and if you called him back or tried to catch him the harder he would run the other way. He did not like to play like other puppies either. He would get his toys and circle them around him and then lie in the middle but he did not play fetch, tug of war, frisbee nothing. We would just have to wait on him to come back when he escaped.

 

The only way my husband finally got him to stay somewhat close to him in the yard was by putting a log chain on him (yes one like you would pull a car) and attaching to himself and walk him around the yard. Eventually he just attached the chain and Blizzard drug it around the yard following my husband thinking he was still attached but was not.

 

He was the best darn dog otherwise though. He never barked unless there was something you needed to know about. He was so quiet you would not even know he was in the house. When my husband would come home he would go sit in from of him and make bear like noises like he was talking to my husband, it was so sweet. Lost him at 15-1/2 going on 4 years ago and still miss him. He was a big teddy bear.

[simba]

I've seen dogs who would happily obey some people and not others (like the dog who won't obey the owner who taught them the trick, but will obey the children they just met). Then there's the obvious situations where dog wants one thing, human wants another, or the dog who will obey fine once it knows the owner's looking.

[Gloria Atwater]

I dunno. I think some dogs can be stubborn and willful. I know a border collie that, if he's not stubborn or willful, I can't think of another word for it!

Yes, he is a somewhat anxious dog, but I've watched him time and time and time again resolutely refuse to do what his owner was asking him to do. Not because he didn't understand, not because he didn't hear the command and not because his owner was wrong or had bad timing, but simply because he did not want to do it. So, rather than do something that he finds uncomfortable, he ignores commands until he's got things his way, despite knowing his handler/owner is displeased with him. He does this not just with his owner but with other people, including professionals, who have handled him. It's just ... who he is!

And it reflects in smaller ways, too, such as repeatedly putting his paw on someone's knee, despite being corrected and reprimanded for it over and over. He'd rather take the correction and act all sorry and wounded than simply stop the behavior or do what he's been asked.

Yup, he is a stubborn dog!

~ Gloria

[simba]

I suppose a dog could stubbornly refuse to give up doing his job. Does that count?

 

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. A dog who's persistent and self motivated can be very useful. The issue is that it doesn't coincide with the owner's purposes.

[Urban Borders]

I have to agree; stubborn seems to carry a rather negative connotation in the English language. Although it may be synonymous with persistence, the emotional response that term creates in humans can be very different (and more likely to view the dog as an opponent). Maybe some people are better than that. I know I'm not, so I avoid it. Even though I have the most determinedly persistent Border Collie I have ever met (and others have said the same). My younger girl, like a foster I once had, loves to be praised. A harsh word can cause her to stop what she is doing completely, unless she is terribly anxious (which definitely occurs). But the older one...she remembers, and if she is prevented from reaching her goal, she will go back and try again later. She also knows that she is faster than me, and if she can beat me to the object that she wants, she will do it. She likes praise, a little, but will only work for rewards she finds valuable (food and toys). She will consciously decide whether to comply with a cue based on whether you tell her (verbally) she will receive a reward or not, even if no rewards are visible. Not stupid, this one...but she's made me a much, much better trainer for it. And the partnership you have with that kind of dog (one that doesn't find praise motivating, or with whom you can't lazily resort to punitive measures, as is often our default) is the most amazing thing.

[Shetlander]

I have to agree; stubborn seems to carry a rather negative connotation in the English language. Although it may be synonymous with persistence, the emotional response that term creates in humans can be very different (and more likely to view the dog as an opponent).

 

That is a good point. At my Lhasa's first agility class, the instructor (a fellow club member) repeatedly referred to Chili as stubborn and ornery. It got on my nerves after a while, but I just shrugged and said "He knows what he knows and it can be hard to change his mind." She always shook her head at my refusal to correct him when she felt he was being defiant. A couple years later however, she paid me the nicest compliment. She was impressed by his happy, confident attitude in the ring and said she was going to train her puppy (also a strong willed dog) with the positive reinforcement approach I used with Chili.

[simba]

I was sitting outside in the garden with friends one sunny day and the dog started throwing a tantrum inside the house. I told her to stop barking, she could come outside. She refused to come outside and continued barking. She whined like nails across a chalkboard, barked incessantly, and generally threw a strop. I told her to quiet down. I gave out socks to her, which I very rarely do or need to do. I figured it was 'pay attention to me' syndrome. She just would not do anything I asked her. She started throwing toys at me and trying to get me to play 'chase' with her.

 

So eventually I followed her in... and she led me to a pot on fire, actually in flames. Thank god she didn't just take a verbal correction and come lie down like I firmly ordered. Good old stubborn terriers.

[GentleLake]

I have to agree; stubborn seems to carry a rather negative connotation in the English language. Although it may be synonymous with persistence, the emotional response that term creates in humans can be very different (and more likely to view the dog as an opponent).

 

Actually, there's a reason for this. The beauty of the English language is its generous vocabulary, which allows us to choose words with various nuances to convey slightly different things without using many words to do it.

 

While they may indeed be somewhat synonymous, to my mind they signify pretty different things.