Fear of the *sound* of children

[Camden's Mom]

My boy has never been a huge fan of kids. I don't have children of my own, nor friends with kids, so we went to playgrounds a lot when he was young for socialization with children. Kids (especially the short ones) tend to weird him out, but he can handle being around them very well and even interacts with them if I'm there as "back up".

 

During the winter we don't see a lot of kids. It's cold, there's snow, school is in session, the days are short, etc. Last spring, when the kids started re-appearing in droves he was very nervousness about them so we did the playground desensitizing circuit again. He seemed back to his normal tolerance level in just a couple sessions. We got through the spring, summer, fall just fine with kids everywhere. It's our second winter with Camden and the kids have been "gone" for an extended period of time again.

 

Over the past few weeks (maybe a month?) I've noticed he's starting to get really weirded out by the *sound* of children. We'll be out on a walk and hear the sounds of children squealing, playing, laughing, etc. on a playground somewhere. His tail tucks, ears go back and he will try to go in the direction away from the noise. He doesn't entirely shut down, but he does get visibly nervous and his focus (unless I'm actively distracting him) is on putting distance between us and the sound. So... we're not in a desperate spot, but I don't want this to get worse. I'd like to nip it in the bud.

 

I've been able to help him through things that make him nervous that he can SEE, but I feel a bit lost trying to help him through a fear of a SOUND. To be clear, if he can see and hear children playing he is OK. It's just when he can hear them and not see them that he's getting anxious. Any suggestions would be much appreciated! Thanks!

 

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Extra Info - Things I've Tried:

1) asking for behaviors and rewarding (distracting him). Result: performs behaviors, takes treat, goes back to being nervous.

2) Sitting down on a bench within' range of the noise and rewarding for calm behavior. Result: He will "settle" but is never really calm.

3) Once I actually knew where the noise was coming from, so I headed TOWARD the playground. Result: He got increasingly nervous but once he SAW the kids playing he calmed down. It did not make him less nervous the next time we heard children.

 

[Shetlander]

I know many people love Control Unleashed, but I remain a fan of Emma Parson's Click to Calm, especially for the situation you describe. I would work on rewarding for relaxed behavior from a further distance, when he is acting calm. You are too close to the children if he is remaining tense. Remember his hearing is better than yours and he is alarmed by the sounds, so he is very sensitive. Another thing you can do is get or make a recording of children playing, talking and work on this issue at home. That allows you to set the volume as low as you want. I would do my best to always pair up the sound of kids with great treats (the best!) and very fun play. With the recording, you could do a Bar Open/Bar Closed (great things only during the sound of kids, when the sounds stop, so do the reinforcers).

 

This approach has worked well with my Lhasa who was a curmudgeon at 3 months of age. He is now 11 years old. I keep him away from kids, but when he sees or hears them, if he starts complaining, I say his name in a happy voice and he immediately forgets about those annoying varmits, focusing instead on me and what game we're going to play.

 

That is interesting about him calming down when he saw the kids. Hmm.

[GentleLake]

I'd say to try to desensitize him to the sound just as you would to sight. Stay under threshold, or watch for his reactions since you don't hear as well as he does and back up to where he's under threshold and work on it.

 

Maybe you could get (or make) some recordings of kids playing that you could use at home.

 

Good luck.

[Camden's Mom]

I found some good playground sound effects online and will try using those. Thanks for those suggestions!! Do you think it's best I reward him for being calm or have the sound effects going in the background and have a big play session while the noise is going on? Or a bit of both?

 

It is strange that he's not worried about the sounds if he can see where (or what) they are coming from. I think as the spring rolls around we'll do some more playground visits and desensitization exercises with kids in sight too, just for good measure.

 

Good points about his hearing being better then mine. I normally notice him getting nervous before I can even hear the kids myself. It's tough to keep him "under threshold" when I'm not even aware of the stimulus... sigh. I guess in those cases I should indulge him and move away from the sound until he's not reacting anymore? Could that potentially reinforce the idea that the sound is scary and we should be retreating from it?

[Shetlander]

I would move him away from the noise but it would be fiesta time while we were moving. Keep associating good things with the sounds. Even if he still nervous, he should start thinking "Cookies or fun is about to start!" whenever he hears the sounds. Eventually, his nerves should subside more and more as the positive aspect of the sounds overtake the negative. I don't think moving will reinforce the fear if you keep working the treats/play. Keeping him over threshold is going to be more likely to cause problems.

 

It may take a while. I would stay very persistent, very patient and very positive in associating the good things with the sounds of children. Come up with a game plan so you are prepared for running into the sounds of kids. If you feel ready to tackle the issue, you will be more convincingly cheerful and calmer yourself when you are working with Camden on this. With my fearful Sheltie, I thought of it as being "bracing."

[Camden's Mom]

Update: Things are getting weirder...

 

We worked with his fear of the sound of children and when we're out of the house things are getting much, much better. Kids do not go unnoticed, but they barely cause a disruption in our outings at this point.

 

However, we have many children in our neighborhood who play in a nearby cal de sac. They ride bikes, scooters, skateboards, etc. and often pass by our house. One especially strange girl will ride her bike while screaming (yes, literally screaming) and sometimes rides right into our driveway... screaming.

 

Camden is now terrified, in his own home, of the children playing outside. We tried the "look at that" game at our front window (tons and tons of high value treats whenever a kid walked or rode by). When we started working on this he was under threshold at the window but we immediately started moving backwards. The window was too hard, then the living room became too hard, now he runs upstairs to his crate when he hears the kids. Needless to say I stopped playing "look at that" with him in the house. I'm at a loss. Kids are everywhere and even the ones who aren't "touched" and screaming their way up and down the street practically shut him down.

 

In general I worry he's becoming more fearful. He won't even go on walks without me anymore. The only way my husband can take him out on his own is if he loads Camden up in the car and they drive to another location. Even then my husband tells me the dog is nervous and on edge if I'm not there. He tells me that about 30 minutes into their outings Camden becomes especially uncooperative, pulling to get back to the car.

 

Camden was obviously nervous as a puppy, but we have worked so very hard at boosting his confidence and it felt like things were going well. He'd become outgoing, friendly and pretty sure of himself. In these last couple months I feel like we've lost a lot of ground... any suggestions on confidence boosting in general? Have any of you has a similar experience with a young dog (he's almost 2yo)? What did you do to help your dog through it?!?

[Tess's Girl]

Has there been any change of routine lately?

 

Tess is a nervous dog. She isn't a huge fan of change, children are one of the things that make her nervous. She's just a little younger than Camden, she's 1.5 years.

 

I've had her since August and she progressively got better and better. Sometime in February it was like she took giant steps backward. She would do fine going to the dog park we have here on property at my apartment. But that was about it. I couldn't hardly get her off property to go for a walk, when before she had loved to walk. If she heard anything outside of the apartment that she didn't like she would go to her crate or my bed and stay there all evening. She got worse than she was when I first got her.

 

I never did figure out what was going on, but just as suddenly as it started it stopped. She's back to normal. I would say beginning of April she was fine again and again making progress. I have noticed that changes in routine can sometimes set her back, but when she got really bad nothing had changed.

 

I don't really have any suggestions for you other than maybe give it a couple more weeks to see if it gets better. I wish I knew what had triggered it in Tess, but she bounced back very well after a bit. Hopefully Camden will bounce back as well.

[GentleLake]

Since this is getting worse, I'd consider talking to your vet about trying some meds that might reduce his anxiety, even (hopefully) if it's just for the short term.

 

Quite a few years ago I had a young dog that got spooked by something and the fears just kept building until she was really pretty much a basket case anywhere other than at home. I wish I'd known then what I do about how helpful medication can be in situations like this. I've seen some amazing transformations in some rescue dogs where meds made it possible for the behavior modification to work, when without them the dogs just could.not. respond.

 

Very best wishes for Camden and for you.

 

roxanne

[urge to herd]

This^^^^. Time for meds. And perhaps even a visit to a veterinary behaviorist.

 

You've done a lot of great things with him, and he's getting more sensitive and more scared. Get some professional help.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

[waffles]

Been there! Seriously, the first summer with Levi was pretty much a huge backwards step. We got him in September of the previous year and spent months building his confidence, training and he had become a great all around dog. Then June hit and we heard fireworks. It just got worse as we lived, at the time, near Lake Erie where fireworks are an all summer long event (day and night). It quickly became difficult to go outside at all, we were driving him to new locations to potty, I was on guard at all times. I had him bolt once from a field back to my car and he tried cramming himself in the wheel well of my back tire. I ran back to my car and cried. And the noise that time was just something that sounded like fireworks. We would be walking and hear a clap noise from construction and he would bolt on leash dragging me back to the car or house.

 

By the end of summer things had gone back to normal. The only medication I used was l-theanine if that counts. We used a thunder shirt as well and did our best to be patient. Many days we didn't get to go out and do fun things like I wanted and he instead laid in his crate. We kept the windows shut with the tv on when we were gone. It's weird to think about because at the time I thought I would never be able to have him off leash again or even walk on leash anywhere. When he heard fireworks on leash, we literally had to run back home...he panicked so much all you could do was run with him so he didn't choke himself. This was 3 years ago by the way and he is much better, no one would know he was ever like that. He can hear fireworks in the distance and he may slink upstairs to his crate but can still come out to eat, may be cautious about going outside to pee but will go. He recovers right away too, no lingering effects later that day or next. I think the biggest thing that helped was moving... That summer was just a constant stream of instances where he heard fireworks and it just kept building and building. He never had a chance to fully recover before hearing them again. Then it transfered to similar popping and clapping noises. I know it could happen again if he ever was subjected to months of fireworks and am glad the only time we really hear them here is on the Fourth of July. We just keep him inside that night, windows closed, TV on.

 

I don't know if any of this helps you but I would try theanine, they say you have to constantly give it for some time for it to have an affect and not just give it the day before a stressful event. The thunder shirt seemed to help as well, it seemed to be what enabled him to at least come out of his crate to eat. Keep your windows closed, keep noise on inside he doesn't mind and maybe put a rope at the end of your driveway to keep the kids off. Or...just move.

[waffles]

I agree too, if you can, seek professional help. I spent countless months researching noise phobias. My next step was a vet behaviorist and medication if it didn't get better after summer.

[Camden's Mom]

Has there been any change of routine lately?

 

I don't really have any suggestions for you other than maybe give it a couple more weeks to see if it gets better. I wish I knew what had triggered it in Tess, but she bounced back very well after a bit. Hopefully Camden will bounce back as well.

 

Nothing has really changed in our routine but I am certain this was all triggered by the rather sudden appearance of loads and loads of children. In the winter we almost never encounter anyone on our walks, much less little humans. Suddenly, when the temp broke 50 degrees and the sun was shining, those scary little creatures were everywhere.

 

Thanks for telling me about Tess and her similar situation. I'm so glad to hear she was able to bounce back, We're keeping fingers, toes and paws crossed that Camden does the same.

 

Quite a few years ago I had a young dog that got spooked by something and the fears just kept building until she was really pretty much a basket case anywhere other than at home.

 

I remember seeing one of your recent posts where you mentioned a young dog who suddenly became afraid of everything. I can't help but worry the same could happen with Camden. Strangely, we've got a reverse situation where he's more afraid of these kids who play near our home then he is out on a walk. He's really making great progress dealing with kids and weird sounds outside of the house.

 

Meds and professional help (vet behaviorist) will be a hard sell to hubby and I won't lie that it will feel like a defeat given the amount of effort we've put into this dog... Still, if it will make his life better it would be irresponsible of me not to consider it.

 

 

That summer was just a constant stream of instances where he heard fireworks and it just kept building and building. He never had a chance to fully recover before hearing them again. Then it transfered to similar popping and clapping noises. I know it could happen again if he ever was subjected to months of fireworks and am glad the only time we really hear them here is on the Fourth of July. We just keep him inside that night, windows closed, TV on.

 

Keep your windows closed, keep noise on inside he doesn't mind and maybe put a rope at the end of your driveway to keep the kids off. Or...just move.

 

Waffles, thank you for your detailed post about Levi... it does help to hear that others have gone through similar regressions and managed to recover from them.

 

As far as moving... the funny thing is, we've been house hunting for the past few months (we currently rent) and yesterday found a house we're going to offer on!! Moving is not only an option but quite likely in the near future! There's no guarantee that we'll get this particular house but if we do it's on a quiet street and there's no cal de sac nearby. I have no doubt there will still be kids riding by and playing outside but I have to hope it'll be better then where we are currently at. At the very least I hope we don't have another incessant screamer...

 

In the meantime I'm going to follow your advice of blocking off the sights and sounds of the kids outside. No reason to upset him more trying to desensitize him... I think we'll be on damage control until we move. If this problem persists or worsens after the move we'll look to meds and professional help.

 

If we get this house I'll be starting another thread about tips on how to make moving as stress-free as possible. However I kinda' feel like at this point he'd be happy to get out of this current house and away from these darn, crazy kids, lol.

[GentleLake]

 

Meds and professional help (vet behaviorist) will be a hard sell to hubby and I won't lie that it will feel like a defeat given the amount of effort we've put into this dog... Still, if it will make his life better it would be irresponsible of me not to consider it.

 

You could start with something very "lightweight" like L-theanine (don't remember the dose but it's been mention here on the Boards before) or melatonin (3-6 mg., readily available at drug stores and inexpensive). I use melatonin for my thunder- and fireworks-phobic dogs, and it definitely takes the edge off for them and makes the whole experience much more manageable. AFAIK, its very safe and there are no long term effects.

 

As for other meds, you wouldn't necessarily have to see a vet behaviorist for them. Many vets are pretty well versed in their uses these days and it might be a good place to start to consult your own vet for advice. I can't tell you how much I wish I'd had that option available for Wren.

 

Good luck with the move. As you say, it may help him to be in a different environment away from whatever location may be specific to his fears.

 

Best wishes getting this under control, and helping Camden find a way to live more comfortably in his own skin.

[GentleLake]

I love it when appropriate things show up in my mailbox just when they're needed.

 

This article on using Bach Flower Essences for fear just arrived.

 

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/flower-power-for-pets-to-the-rescue/

 

Rescue Remedy is less specific, but has been used to help many dogs in fearful and/or stressful situations. It's readily available at health food stores.

[Maralynn]

I've used l-theanine both for myself (combination of work and school stress) and for Kipp (thunderphobia) and have been very pleased with the results. It takes and edge off the anxiety so you can deal with life. Pet Naturals makes a calming supplement with theanine in it - I've used it for Kipp and it worked for him. You can get it on Amazon for less than $10

[Camden's Mom]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions on the "over the counter" calming medications and supplements!! Since they are affordable and easy to get I may try a few of these out. There is a peek time (after school lets out until dinnertime) when the kids that frighten him are usually playing outside. I could try to administer something to him around these times (or beforehand with enough time for it to take effect). This might be a way to help him until we move. I'm really hoping that being in a new environment will be a fresh start for him and we can go without the supplements, but only time will tell.

 

I also wanted to add that if the kids are not playing outside he is fine in the house. He'll sleep in his bed by the front window and is calm and relaxed. I didn't want to give the impression that he's a basket case all day and night. The kids really are the trigger for his anxiety and his reaction is to flee to his crate upstairs (tail tucked, ears back). Usually 30 - 60 minutes after they stop playing outside he'll come back downstairs and start to relax again.

[GentleLake]

I've used the Pet Naturals Calming treats, too.

 

They're available at some pet stores if you're in a hurry, and Swanson on line has great prices as well.

 

With both L-theanine and melatonin, I'd give it to him a good half hour, 45 minutes before school lets out for best effect.

 

Good that you have a time frame you can work with. That helps a lot.

[waffles]

I have Levi theanine for humans that I bought from a health food store. I gave him the dose everyday regardless of what was going on. I fazed it out after summer. From what I had read it takes time to take effect (like giving it every day for a week or more; can't remember now). But basically you don't want to just give it for a day and expect results.

[simba]

I have used Bach flower remedies before- I wouldn't use them again. Just go for the brandy (if you're using them for you, not the dog.) More info here and here.

 

It's old-fashioned but I do like the idea of having the sound of children, especially just before feeding time, every time you feed him. It's how they used to train gundogs (still do), and war horses.

[Maralynn]

 

I have Levi theanine for humans that I bought from a health food store. I gave him the dose everyday regardless of what was going on. I fazed it out after summer. From what I had read it takes time to take effect (like giving it every day for a week or more; can't remember now). But basically you don't want to just give it for a day and expect results.

When I've used it for thunderstorms for Kipp a one time dose has worked almost as well as valium. Takes about 30 minutes o fully kick in but he's definitely much more relaxed, less anxious and can deal with the storm instead of pacing and hiding.

[GentleLake]

^^That's the reaction I get with melatonin, too.

[waffles]

 

When I've used it for thunderstorms for Kipp a one time dose has worked almost as well as valium. Takes about 30 minutes o fully kick in but he's definitely much more relaxed, less anxious and can deal with the storm instead of pacing and hiding.

That's good to know. What I have been doing is giving it to him a week or so before the Fourth of July. I have never seen Valium like levels of change but do see a difference. What dose do you give?

[Maralynn]

About 50mg (30# dog) And for Kipp the Valium (5mg) doesn't knock him out or anything. It just takes the edge off and he's a bit mellow.

[gcv-border]

Another OTC treatment you may want to try (if the others don't work) is the Adaptil collar (formerly the D.A.P. collar). It is supposed to help with anxiety, etc.

 

I had used it several years ago with my own dog and didn't notice much effect, but I was just talking with a fellow foster mom about her scared, undersocialized 9 month old foster puppy. After a month in her house, she had made no headway with his issues. She put the Adaptil collar on him and reported that it was like flipping a switch. Within 30 minutes, she could put a lead on him and walk him with her other dogs. Over the period of the next week, he became so 'normal' that she could hike her property with him off-leash and he would stay with her pack. He lost the collar after a week, but the positive personality change remained.

 

I find this major, rapid effect to be rather unbelievable, but be that as it may, the Adaptil collar may certainly help with certain dogs.

 

I was told not to buy the pheromone collars at the big box pet stores. Buy only the branded Adaptil collar. (She bought hers from Lambert Vet Supply.)

 

FWIW.

 

Good Luck.

[BCjetta]

I used clomicalm with mine however I didn't notice much change. Her issue was sudden sounds that she did not know where they were coming from (kids and kid sounds are scary, dog tags jingling, any sudden loud noise, in our yard the sound of any person aside from the ones living in my house, even the noise some cars make). However, if she knows the location of the sound (lawnmower motor, me dropping something loud in front of her) then she's ok. I attributed it partially to her being a nervous dog in general and partly because she is deaf in 1 ear so would have a hard time figuring out where sounds come from and therefore freak herself out more about it. She's a bit over 3 now and in the last 6 months she's been getting a bit better about the noise issues - she will just look all freaked out, ears pinned back as opposed to totally shutting down. Not sure why because I haven't changed much.