Help w/ 2 BC

[Mike Baas]

We have a problem that has developed in the last couple of weeks with 2 sisters from the same litter. They have began to have knock down drag out fighting, both have been spayed. Any suggestion on how to stop or prevent this. I am worried that one of my sons will get seriously injured trying top break them apart.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Mike Baas:

We have a problem that has developed in the last couple of weeks with 2 sisters from the same litter. They have began to have knock down drag out fighting, both have been spayed.

Not to be the voice of doom but ... when female littermates start fighting like that, often there is nothing you can do but keep them seperated at all times unless very closely supervised. I worry a lot more about bitches fighting than dogs, because dogs will fight to be jerks, but bitches will fight like they mean it.

 

I think you probably need some help from a professional, and you also need to be extremely diligent about keeping them apart. This kind of fighting between female siblings does not usually resolve itself, and I know of more than one incident like this where one bitch has fatally wounded the other.

 

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, and I hope it works out for you, but don't take it for granted that they will resolve this amongst themselves. Be proactive about it before something terrible happens.

 

RDM

[BigD]

I too have seen this - bitches can FIGHT and I've seen some bad, bad sister figths that can only compare to 2 pitbulls trying to kill each other.

 

How old are they? And it just started? Agree professiona/on-site advice is needed.

 

Good luck.

 

Denise

[Cholla1]

Ask your vet for a referral to a specialist in behavioral issues, maybe a nearby vet school.

 

That kind of fighting is one of the more serious ones between dogs and most times is best for all to rehome one of the dogs involved.

People and the dogs can not guarantee that they will always stay separated or under strict control.

The stress level in the house, for all, is not fair to any one.

 

There are many reasons for that, mostly unresolved issues of dominance, that are very important in the dog's instincts, that can surface at maturity.

 

Let this be a warning to anyone that wants to raise siblings from the same litter or puppies of very close ages together.

It is very difficult to do so properly, unless someone is experienced and will spend the time to keep them and interact with them separatedly for long periods most every day until they are mature.

 

These kinds of fights may happen to any two dogs for several reasons like lack of socialization with their own species, but is classic in dogs raised together, unless one is definitely very submissive and stays that way when grown.

[HKM's Mom]

Mike,

Until you figure out what you are going to do, may I suggest you get two soft muzzles for the dogs. Spend some time with each dog teaching them to accept the muzzle before you put them together. With some dogs the muzzles will help curb their desire to maul one another. Even if it doesn't stop the fighting 100%, you have a way to aviod the dogs biting eachother or a family member.

I have two females that do not get along due to dominance issues. The one that starts the fights now wears a soft muzzle when they have to be together. She hates it, and usually pouts in the corner, but at least there is peace in the home. They do spend most of their time separated, but let me tell you it is a lot of work to do that.

If you decide to get the muzzles make sure they fit the muzzle well. If they are to big they won't work at all.

If you don't have crates, I suggest you get at least one so oyu can keep them apart easier. One is crated and one is loose. It's safer with a crate than with baby gates.

Good luck in your decision,

HKM's Mom

[AK dog doc]

Ummm...just a word of caution on the soft muzzle thing. HKM's Mom may be thinking of a different kind than I am, but if the muzzle is capable of keeping the dog's mouth shut, there's a danger of overheating the dog. Dogs have sweat glands only in their feet and have to cool themselves by panting. If they can't open their mouths they can't pant and therefore can't cool down. Also, having had any number of dogs remove these at inopportune moments (even when properly applied), I'd be reluctant to rely on them completely. If motivated enough, some dogs will still attempt to bite or show agression (growling, lungeing) even while muzzled (I got a nice fat lip this way once, from an agressive patient who did NOT think a Rabies shot was necessary, thank you very much); this could also lead to disaster, since the muzzled dog may trigger a fight but then can't defend itself. Sorry to dissent, and I'm not trying to step on any toes; just concerned about fight issues, heat stroke and repsiratory problems (some dogs if agitated enough begin to drool excessively and will aspirate saliva, which then causes coughing - or the attempt - and can lead to significant repiratory distress.)

 

Basket muzzles are meant to allow a dog to pant and open its mouth, but it also allows a full range of facial expression, which is part of the whole agression ritual. A basket muzzle would help prevent a serious bite, however. Even so, it seems to me (though perhaps I'm wrong) that a muzzle isn't going to solve the problem. Keeping the dogs separated for a time while you're re-training might not be that hard, but I agree with HKM's mom that if you have to do it long term, it can be a real pain in the rump.

 

It is possible that you might have to rehome one dog; same-litter rivalries do seem to be more intense than same-age, different-litter ones, and you can have fight-to-the-death battles, minor injuries, and everything in between. Though there are people who will tell you THEY had littermates and never a moment's trouble, it is, unfortunately, possible that you may not be so lucky. In your shoes I'd probably investigate professional help (by a board-certified Veterinary behaviorist, if possible) before making the decision to place one of the dogs. It may be there's a happy solution to all of this, but it's really hard to predict without being able to view the interactions in person. JMO, of course.

[Eileen Stein]

I've used polyethylene basket muzzles (such as can be seen at http://www.morrco.com/itbasmuzsizc.html ) with this type of problem. A muzzle on both dogs, and always supervised. True, it alone will not solve the problem, but it gives you an opportunity to correct during the "aggression ritual" without risk of provoking a full-fledged fight, or at least without risk of injury if one does break out. Make sure the muzzles fit well and are applied securely.

 

However, if I couldn't get the dogs to drop their aggressive reactions to one another within a short perod of using the muzzles, I would discontinue it, and keep them separated for a while. There's no question that there's a "kindling" effect involved in these interactions -- the more times they've gone through the ritual with each other, the more ingrained the aggression becomes.

 

Don't know how old your kids are, but Mace is probably the safest way to break up an outdoor dog fight. Unless someone else has a better suggestion?

[AK dog doc]

I've broken them up by grabbing the agressor by the back legs and picking the feet up off the ground while pulling the dog away from the fight (this actually works best if there are two peope, one on each dog). But this was with my own dogs, and I had voice control over the other dog in the fight, and I would NOT suggest that you let children try this. They should come get you if a fight breaks out, since they may be too small, or not have the judgement or strength necessary to break up a fight this way. The most important thing is not to get bitten, and in that particular situation I was certain I would avoid it - an adult is big enough to get the legs up high enough to unbalance the dog while still avoiding the reactive whip-around-and-bite that many dogs will have as a response to anything touching them during a fight. I try never to get my hands or other body parts anywhere near the front part of the dog because they are WAY faster than I am as a general rule.

 

Eileen has an excellent point about the kindling thing, BTW. I hope you find a happy solution soon.

[Lucy Goosey]

You can avoid the whipping around to bite thing by pulling back in an arc rather than a straight line. Also, if there's only one person present, loop a leash under the hips of one of the dogs, threading the loose end through the loop on the handle end, then close the free end in a door or tie it securely to an object that will not move. Then calmly walk around behind and lift the other dog's legs up and pull it away in an arc.

 

Something that works very well for me is rotating crate time and house priveleges between my two girls, about every two hours during the day. I make the crating pleasant for them by giving them a stuffed Kong or something to chew in their crate in the back bedroom with the TV tuned to the public broadcasting channel and the door closed, so that they're in a relaxed environment and external sounds are drowned out to some degree. I also keep the heater on if it's cold outside, so that the room is warm and comfortable, promoting relaxation. At night when I'm hanging out on the couch, they stay on tiedowns in the living room.

 

To make the tiedowns, I screwed heavy gauge eyehooks into the base of the wall in two opposite ends of the room, then attached a length of poly rope with a snap hook to one, and used an old six foot nylon leash for the other. The tiedowns started out very short, so that the girls could stand up and turn around, but could not leave their designated areas. I filled a treat pouch with food (at first I used special treats like chicken, cheese, unsweetened cereal, etc., but now I just use kibble) and a small Super Soaker with plain tap water (a plant sprayer cannot reach as far as I needed it to). Any aggressive posturing or hard staring was interrupted (with a squirt from the Super Soaker) and redirected (with an obedience command), and calm behavior was rewarded (with the food). Over time as they got used to being on their tiedowns and started paying less and less negative attention to one another, I lengthened the tiedowns in small increments. Their tiedowns are now long enough that they could reach each other if they wanted, but I still keep them on tiedowns as a preventive management measure. I do not use the Super Soaker anymore (it only took about three squirts in one evening for the older one to reduce her posturing significantly) but I still redirect verbally, using obedience commands if I see anything I don't like, and reward appropriate behavior/correct responses with food. I've been doing this for about nine months now, and we have not had a fight since.

 

The older one LOVES her tiedown. She wears a harness to which the tiedown is clipped, and every night, when it's time for her to go on her tiedown, she gets very excited, runs over to her tiedown, sits happily, and "snorts" (her happy noise) while lifting her paw and threading it through the strap all by herself. The younger one doesn't like her tiedown as much as she is young and impulsive and doesn't like the restriction, but she is learning to go to her "place" (the dog bed next to her tiedown) and to hold a long downstay. Her most irritating habit is "popping" up when it's been too long (in her mind) since she's had a treat. We're working on that.

 

We also take them on parallel walks. The older one walks on a coupler with my male Lab, and the younger one is walked on her own leash. My spousal unit takes either the older one and the Lab on their coupler, or the younger one, and I take whichever one he doesn't have. We walk just out of leash range of one another, and the girls pretty much ignore one another and just walk.

 

I do not trust them unsupervised together or without some sort of preventive management tool in place. I do not rely on baby gates, as they are both capable of clearing one in an instant. I might consider stacking one on top of the other, though, so that one of the girls can have the front part of the house while the other gets the back part, but I only have the one baby gate right now.

 

I did try using soft muzzles. I took a few weeks to get each of them used to wearing the muzzles separately, then in the presence of one another but on their tiedowns. Once they seemed pretty comfortable with that arrangement, I tried an introduction in the back yard. That effort crashed and burned in a big way, so I kind of gave up on the idea. I think I know now what I did wrong, but I'm satisfied enough with the current arrangement that I don't feel a burning need to try again.

 

It really appears to me as if the older one likes the predictable routine. She likes her bedroom crate and always goes in willingly and stays there quietly, and as I mentioned, she loves her tiedown. I think by taking away her choice in the matter, she can relax and not feel compelled to handle things herself. The younger one complains in her crate and doesn't seem at all thrilled with restrictions, but she does seem much more relaxed and secure in the understanding that the older one is not able to attack her.

[HKM's Mom]

Forgive me for not being clear enough, and thanks to those that pointed it out.

 

First and foremost, I posted that "until Mike figured out what he was going to do" muzzles were an option. Not everyone wants to invest time in to working through fighting issues, not everyone has the money to do it, and it's hard to rehome a dog in one or two days. The muzzle suggestion is a quick, temporary, band-aide to a dangerous problem.

 

The soft muzzle (any muzzle for that matter) is not meant to be worn full-time. It is a way to transport, walk, etc dogs without fear of attacks. They are not meant to be a solution to the problem, but if you need a quick fix to keep everyone safe it's an option. My aggressor does wear a muzzle "when they have to be together." My other one does not wear one because she a) does

not cause any problems Has an "Ous" and strong obedience (titled dog) c) is the dominant dog so she sees no reason to fight for the position. I use crates, etc to keep them away from one another, but living alone it isn't always possible. In those cases I find the muzzle to be very effective in avoiding fights. I did not suggest that Mike only get one muzzle, just that it works for my house.

 

Since there are kids in the house keeping the dogs apart is not alway easy to do. Accidents happen. Also, since Mike posted the question and feared a child would get hurt I was assuming (forgive me if I was wrong) he was fairly new to breaking up fights.

 

For a beginner, I highly suggest crates and muzzles. Crates to keep them apart and muzzles for the times you can't. After 20+ years of training, teaching, and trialing, I prefer to teach beginners how to aviod a fight instead of how to break it up. Avoidance is much easier to do and much safer.

 

Is it clearer this time? Did I miss anything?

HKM's Mom

[SoloRiver]

Don't know how old your kids are, but Mace is probably the safest way to break up an outdoor dog fight. Unless someone else has a better suggestion?

 

Water. A hose, or a really big Super Soaker, or a bucket at the ready. Lots and lots of water. Bottles of seltzer water can be shaken and then sprayed with good effect if things haven't progressed to the knock-down-drag-out stage yet. I have never used any of these remedies myself, but these are the best suggestions I've heard. You can also generally use them indoors if you have to, unless the dogs are fighting right in front of the home entertainment system.

 

I would prefer to avoid something as caustic as Mace or pepper spray -- there's always the risk of "blowback" and I've heard stories (perhaps apocryphal) of how instead of stopping a charging animal (bear, dog, whatever), the spray made them more agitated and out of control.

[amc]

Melanie suggested water, and lots of it, to break up a dogfight. This reminds me of an incident that I can smile at now but was horrifying at the time. My husband and I were at a sheepdog trial with two trucks. His two bitches had been crated overnight in my truck (for some reason) and the others were crated in his truck. I got up early and thought I'd go ahead and exercise the dogs. I started with his bitches, just jumping them right out of their crates and WHAM! With no warning they jumped each other and the Fight was ON! It was a real bitch-fight, and they paid zero attention to me as I tried to break it up. Fortunately we were adjacent to a small lake, and I somehow managed to drag the two of them, locked in a death struggle, down to the water's edge and I threw them both in. Did they stop??

 

Not immediately....but when the better swimmer of the two just about drowned the other one, the 'loser' gave up and came out. I snatched her up instantly and ran for her crate, with the other at my heels.

 

These two bitches are still with us and they rarely even lift a lip to each other, but I guess they must have been trash-talking all night long!

[Eileen Stein]

I have never had any success breaking up a serious dogfight with a SuperSoaker, a hose, or a bucket of water, and I've tried all three. Dogs in an all-out fight are too single-minded for that. I've seen two fighting border collies thrown in a swimming pool three times in succession; they resumed the fight as soon as they struggled out the first two times, eluding the people who were trying to catch them, and were only stopped after the third time because both of them were caught and confined. OTOH, I don't think they can continue to fight if both are maced, though I agree that it's a fairly drastic tactic that anyone would shrink from having to use.

[Lucy Goosey]

Eileen, I've found the same to be true. When my two started fighting, nothing short of physically pulling them apart would stop them. I did get nailed on the hand the first time I stupidly tried to grab the collar of one of them (I totally knew better, but was just reacting without thinking). After that I made sure to use the "wheelbarrow method", and sustained no injuries, even when doing it alone. The biggest challenge was getting them to let go of one another. They would clamp their jaws shut around each others' necks or faces, and would not release for the first ten or fifteen seconds after I had them both restrained. I must admit that since having this experience, I chuckle at the notion that a "strong alpha" will not have fighting in their pack. In my experience, true interbitch aggression is very different from the occasional scuffle over a bone or toy that can be broken up verbally and/or with body blocks. When one or both have totally committed to driving the competing bitch out of the pack, their tenacity can be truly amazing.

 

At any rate, I agree that keeping them separated is the safer option, and that a muzzle can be used for those times when they "must be together", though with mine, there never is a time when they "must be together". When they're in the same room, they're on tiedowns, when my husband and I walk them, they're on leashes, and when riding in the car, they're in crates. Keep in mind also that all the muzzle does is prevent them from being able to bite, but it won't neccessarily prevent fights from occurring. You could be leash walking both of them and end up with a fight on your hands even with a muzzle on one or both of them.

 

I think it is very important to establish some safety rules for the children; instruct the kids on what to do if a fight happens, and have them rehearse the procedure a few times when there is NOT a fight happening. With my teenage daughters, they understand the importance of keeping our two bitches separated, as they have witnessed what can happen if they're not. So they take part in the rotating of crate time and the putting of the girls on their tiedowns (they also take turns feeding the dogs their evening meal). They have been instructed to NEVER try to reach into a fight, and that if a fight occurs, to call either me or my husband to handle it. When they are home alone with the dogs, there is no opportunity for the females to fight as the younger one is either with me or crated in her bedroom crate. If I want them to be rotated, I tell my daughter(s) at what time to rotate the girls, and they are very clear on the procedure and quite capable of carrying it out; but I wouldn't neccessarily expect this from young children.

 

I just wanted to address this comment:

 

That kind of fighting is one of the more serious ones between dogs and most times is best for all to rehome one of the dogs involved.

People and the dogs can not guarantee that they will always stay separated or under strict control.

The stress level in the house, for all, is not fair to any one.

I agree that this kind of thing can be too much for many people to handle, and I can certainly understand the desire to have dogs that get along. However, rehoming one of my females is not an option, as the older one has been with our family for seven years and is a beloved family pet, and the younger one is a working dog with a job to do. For me, managing them is the right choice, and is something that the whole family supports and is capable of assisting with. I would not begrudge anyone, however, who felt that they could not do this and that rehoming was the right choice for them.

[Mike Baas]

I would like to thank all of you for your replies. It has been 3 days without a problem, fingers crossed. My wife would like to know if there is anyone who would be interestin in obtaining a 18 month old, spayed female. If so please let me know.

[Cholla1]

What part of the country are you in?

 

There may be a border collie rescue close that you may check with, or your vet or a local shelter may be able to help you place her, or guide you to a rescue association.

[MrSnappy]

Originally posted by Cholla1:

What part of the country are you in?

He's in Franklin, Indiana ... like it says at the bottom of his post in his profile

 

RDM

[Cholla1]

Oh, it does say so, doesn't.

[Sabreur]

My parents had two female Cairn terriers who exhibited this behavior. After my dad and I both got bitten badly seperating them, we asked the advice of a guy who had a pack (30!!!!) of beagles. Here's what he told us:

 

You need two people, preferably the dog's family members. Each person holds a dog, tightly, with one arm curled around the neck and holding the head, the other hand ready to whack the dog on the muzzle.

 

You bring the two dogs together nose to nose. If they squirm or growl, you pop them on the muzzle. Continue until you have them touching nose to nose, with no growling or squirming.

 

Then let them go. Watch them carefully for any aggressive behavior--if they start eyeing each other, repeat the procedure above. Keep doing it until they leave each other alone.

 

I normally train almost exclusively with positive reinforcement, and I don't believe in whacking dogs, but this worked, and it allowed us to keep both dogs. It does make everyone unhappy while you are doing it, and the dogs sulk, but in the end, they learn not to try to eat each other.

 

The alternative is to rehome one of the dogs--because females will fight to the death.

 

MR