Front paw at an angle and limping in a 1yr old

[jglonek]

Hi everyone! I am new to this website, I came across it when trying to look things up for my just-turned-a-year old border collie mix. I had some questions I was hoping to get some insight on. I did look around at some similar topics but I am new to border collies and their genetics so I thought it would be best to ask on my own instead of guessing and trying to apply something to my dog. If this post shouldn't be here just let me know!

 

Anyway, this is Raina. She is a year old (13 month) border collie mix. The adoption place we got her from (at 4 months) says she is mixed with a maremma sheepdog. I'm not seeing it, but. I am thinking about getting one of those DNA tests for her early next year to try and identify things a little better. She is 30 pounds and about 19 inches tall. She loves playing with her big brother Aiden our mini Aussie. They definitely wear each other out!

 

I'm posting because she has been limping for about a month. It's her front-left paw. We first noticed it in the beginning of the month, and remembered that a day or so earlier she yelped when her brother was rough-housing and pushed her into the couch. We figured she might have injured it. We tried to keep her from going too crazy for a week and it wasn't getting better - she would hold it up when sitting down, but was still able to walk and run on it, that didn't seem to cause much pain.

After it being like that for a week we decided to bring her to our vet. Our vet took a look at her and said that she has unusually long toes, and that her left paw and joint are angled differently than the right, which might make her predisposed to hurting it. They did not do any X-Rays.The vet told us to have her rest it, and gave us Carprofen to give a 1/2 tablet twice a day for a week, and then as needed for pain, and also Ligaplex to give her twice a day indefinitely.

 

Looking back at photos we noticed she has always been like that, she just never showed any issues with it so we were more focused on her hind legs - how she sits frog-legged all the time (something that makes us really concerned about hip displaysia). She does have her front-left paw at almost a 45 degree angle sometimes.

 

We gave her the Carprofen for a week but have not given any since (so it's been about a week and a half). And have been giving her the Ligaplex twice a day. For the first week or so she wasn't holding the paw up anymore, but still limping. In the past few days she is gradually starting to hold it up again when sitting. She will still run and play without any issue (which she probably shouldn't be doing, but).

At this point we are not sure what steps to take next, or what might be wrong. I see there can be a lot of different dog and border collie-specific issues, but am not sure if is any of them. Since she is a mix I'm not even sure it's a border collie genetic issue! If her joints did not grow right, I mean what are the options? She is only a year old, I don't want her limping forever, that is no good. And should we be concerned about the frog-legged sitting?

Complicating this is that we are not happy with our vet, so I am having trouble taking them at their word on this. They are respected in the area but we have had issues, both with our dogs and cats. (For instance with the frog-legged, we were told "some dogs just do that forever with no issue!" which might be true, I guess). We saw what we consider the more "competent" one this time who noticed her paws right away. We do plan on switching vets in the new year.

I am just not sure if since Raina is still limping we need to fast-track her visit to a new vet. And I am not sure how to tell if the new vet is going in the right direction for her treatment. I want to make sure she is getting what she needs done and starts feeling better, and not waste more time. For other owners, does this look like it could be any certain things? Should I make sure my vet is investigating one thing or another and doing any certain tests or treatments?

If you made it this far thank you for reading this! And any answers you may have thank you so much in advance.

[MrSnappy]

I am not an expert in dog anatomy / structure, but I think this condition is called "Carpal Laxity Syndrome / carpal hyperextension" or is sometimes referred to as being 'down in the pasterns' in horses. There are a variety of reasons why a dog would have this and in some of them the pastern bows out, but both of your dog's front feet are misshapen, imo. You can see how different from your other dog that has little rock feet rather than surfboards (the rock feet being "normal" or preferred structure). I would suggest a different vet have a look at this, because it can lead to numerous painful associated conditions.

 

RDM

[GentleLake]

I was thinking the same thing that RDM mentions, except that it seems odd that the right foot is also angled, as well as down.

 

How long ago was the second to last picture taken? The right foot doesn't seem to be angled as severely in that picture. It makes me wonder if that angulation is increasing, and if it is, it would worry me even more. Even the left one seems to be angling out a bit.

 

I've never really seen a dog sit like that before, so no help here. It does seem odd.

 

Both might be things that an orthopedic specialist may be able to give you guidance with.

 

As to her "mix", except for her feet she looks pretty BC to me. And at 30 lbs., I'd have a hard time believing she's half maremma. They're pretty big dogs.

[MrSnappy]

Yes, I agree - the one foot is much worse, but both are pretty "bad" and neither are "normal."

 

Also, the "lazy sit" is a not uncommon indicator of CHD, and sometimes of knee problems as well.

 

RDM

[jglonek]

You are right that neither foot is normal, definitely not compared to our Aussie's.

 

The second to last photo was taken in July. The first foot photo up top was earlier this week and the second was tonight. So there is a good chance it is getting worse. It doesn't look good at all when she walks on it, but that's hard to get a photo of. I really don't want her doing any permanent injury to it.

 

I'm not sold on her being part maremma either. They have a much different look. I'm pretty sure she's not purebred though, so I may need to get a DNA test. I did ask the adoption place her history (how many places have 4 month old pups?) and got radio silence, never a good sign.

 

We love her to death but I am worried she is going to have problems and I want to get ahead of it as much as possible.

 

I could bring her back to our current vet but if it's going to be an involved process (and I'm sure it will be) it would be better to bring her to the new one. I don't know what went wrong with our vet.. They came recommended. But, I'll give you two instances of issues: 1) when we got Raina microchipped they noticed as we were checking out that the chip went through her and was on the floor. They brought us back to the room, wiped the chip off with alcohol, pulled the syringe out of the dirty bin(!) and put the chip in her again. My wife almost went nuts. Luckily Raina never got an infection. And 2) one of my older cats (he's 10) was losing hair on his belly and sides. The vet swore up and down it was a flea allergy (never mind he's an indoor cat, and he's 10 and never had issues). So we gave him flea meds for three months (never gave topical flea meds to a cat before and the vet forgot to warn us that they hate the smell and will foam at the mouth - another scary moment) and he kept losing hair. we took him to another vet (where we will bring Raina) and she said it was stress and to try a calming collar. It sounded like voodoo to us but after three months of collars his hair was all back and now he is better without any, and no flea meds either.

 

I just want to make sure Raina is getting what she needs done and not more "take some more pain meds and joint pills for a week!" If it needs to be a lot more than that.

[gcv-border]

Welcome to the boards.

 

With regard to your current vet: the microchip incident would bother me too. As an ex-scientist who would spend at least half my day doing tasks that required sterile procedures, I would say that they 'cleaned' up their mistake appropriately and that there was a high probability that no infection would occur, BUT it was definitely borderline and totally unprofessional and inappropriate. IMO, it is better to lose ~$10 on the microchip than risk infection and lose a client. They should have warned you about the potential reaction to flea meds, but to be fair, I think that 90% of vets would think 'flea allergy'. Once the flea meds didn't work, then other diagnoses would be considered. The second vet had the advantage of that knowledge.

 

You may want to get X-rays and possibly consult an orthopedic specialist (or vice versa). I think your photos would be very helpful for diagnosis also since they show a progression of the condition.

 

Good Luck

[GentleLake]

If there's been that much of a progression since July, I'd try to get her to see another vet ASAP. I'd be afraid that it will continue to progress.

 

I have no experience with things like this, but I'd think that there'd be a much greater chance of slowing the progress of this and/or repairing it before it gets any worse.

 

Good luck . . . and please let us know how things go.

[jglonek]

I took a look around and it seems like Blue Pearl Is the closest clinic that has orthopedic specialists here in Florida. The three large vets nearby don't specialize in it. Does anyone have any experience with them? I know they are in a few other states as well.

Scratch that - it looks like the vet I want to bring her to does orthopedic work as well. I will get here in there as soon as I can. In the meantime should I give her anymore of the pain medication or continue with the Ligaplex?

After RDM mentioned carpal hyperextension I did look around a bit and came across this thread from 2009 that seems similar:

 

http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=26825

 

If it's due to a high protein diet, what would be a good low protein food to give her? Currently her and our aussie are eating PurinaOne Healthy Weight (our aussie was overweight and this did the trick for him, and we just had her start eating it as well after she was finished her puppy food)

http://www.purinaone.com/products/dog-food/smartblend-healthy-weight-dog-food#ingredients-and-nutrition

[jvw]

_{If it were me I would get her to an ortho vet ASAP, before changing diet.}

[Liz P]

NO! Do not give a low protein diet to a dog that might potentially have weaker ligaments and tendons. Protein is critical to soft tissue strength.

 

I don't have personal experience with the vets at BP in Florida, but the company in general is excellent.

 

That problem is common but not normal. It is often genetic and it can lead to more arthritis later in life. I would see an ortho surgeon who is on board with PT as a valid option.

[jglonek]

NO! Do not give a low protein diet to a dog that might potentially have weaker ligaments and tendons. Protein is critical to soft tissue strength.

 

Understood, and I'm glad I posted on here!

 

I will do my best to get her in before Christmas. It's been a crazy year.

 

At this point should the vet just do X-Rays of her front paws and probably back hips so they can see everything and have a record? I was expecting the vet to do it when I first took her in but they just poked around by hand.

[jvw]

An ortho vet will certainly do xrays at least on her front legs/feet.

 

I'd skip the DNA test to see what she is mixed with. IMO those are a waste of money and you might need the funds to treat her ortho issues

[Gideon's girl]

Protein is not the issue, but calcium could very well be. Your dog may need to be on a very specific calcium level as you would do for a large breed dog and may need splints on both front legs for a bit. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if a good ortho vet didn't also find evidence of pano too.

 

Don't bother with the DNA tests. Occasionally they give some sensible answers, but frequently they do not. And especially with a breed like Border Collies, they seem to give nonsense answers. Considering that in the not-to-distant-past BCs were bred from any dog that herded with great ability, it's no wonder these tests can't nail them down. Not too many generations back, all BCs were mixed breeds.

[GentleLake]

I was thinking splinting might be a possibility, too, but didn't mention it because I really don't know enough about it. But it's one of the reasons I suggested getting her to a vet (preferably one w/ ortho experience) sooner rather than later, because I'd think there'd be a better chance of it helping the sooner it can be addressed.

[Gideon's girl]

Definitely!!

[BCjetta]

I would definitely get some decent x-rays of the leg. Probably better to let a specialist do it though as there may be particular views they want.

There is another thing they can get where one of the bones in the front leg (either the radius or the ulna) gets damage to the growth plate and stops growing but the other bone keeps growing and therefore causes the carpus to angle one way or the other because of the uneven bone growth. We had a border collie mix at the clinic I work at with that issue. Had surgery with a specialist and at this time has no lasting problems from it.

[jglonek]

As an update I will be calling the new vet on Monday to schedule an appointment. Raina is still about the same but it just doesn't look good when she walks. We were able to find some extra funds to get this looked at ASAP. We do have pet insurance luckily, it's just paying up front that is fun. Of course I see that they do not cover "cruciate ligament injuries" within the first 12 months of the policy, and she has only been on it for 9 (since we got her in February). So that might end up being fun.

[GentleLake]

Good luck.

 

Since this doesn't appear to be an injury and the cruciate ligament is in the knee, and this is the wrist and/or toes, I don't think that exclusion will apply.

[jglonek]

Thanks. And thanks everyone for replying, especially during the past few days over the holiday!

I did find a video from September I took of the two dogs playing and she was walking on it normally. Well, it's still not the best but it's straight, not angled out like it is now. The X-Rays will be interesting, I do hope she doesn't have a break or tear that the other vet didn't diagnose because they did not decide to do x-rays.

[Alchemist]

I'm a fan of seeing an ortho specialist rather than going to a regular vet when there's an ortho issue. I could have saved myself a boatload of money (and a lot of time) with one dog had I done so. The regular vet suggested X-rays; they only did sedated X-rays,so several hundred dollars in bloodwork (to make sure said dog would tolerate the anesthetic), then half-day hospital stay, then X-rays; vet felt said X-rays were "inconclusive" so sent them to an outside radiologist who also felt they were "inconclusive" but who added "if you were concerned about [condition], why didn't you shoot from X angle?" Not helpful to me, as by the time we'd gotten this word the dog was long home from the vet hospital. I also wasted at least a month (and many vet visits) trying to get them to diagnose the issue.

 

Fast forward to the trip to the ortho specialist: he said "what do you mean these [X-rays] are "inconclusive"? [issue] lights up like a Christmas tree! But why did they only shoot the right [side]?" In other words, more experienced eyes were able to spot immediately what the issue was from the X-rays the regular vet (and the outside radiologist) thought were "inconclusive". So the ortho vet did unsedated X-rays on the spot, for a fraction of the cost of my vet's (sedated) X-rays, and pinpointed the issue.

 

The point being - even pricey specialists are not necessarily more expensive. I had a similar experience with a subsequent ortho issue - a different (regular) vet had trouble diagnosing the issue, while the ortho vet identified it right away. I'd rather pay the money for one visit to an ortho vet (even if the "per visit" price is a touch higher), and get a diagnosis, than three visits to a regular vet with no conclusive diagnosis.

 

ETA: I'm with RDM - your dog's front legs/wrists/paws don't look normal to me. I'd want advice from someone familiar with the syndrome. And if you do end up getting X-rays on the front limbs, go ahead and get them at the same time on the hips - there's a lot that can be done that doesn't involve surgery, but it's good to anticipate rather than wait until a dog is aging and your options are limited.

 

Also agree that 30 lb seems small for a half-Maremma dog.

[jglonek]

Hey everyone,

 

As an update - we took Raina to the new normal vet last night. The vet gave her a good once-over with all her legs and said she has good range of motion at the moment, but that something was definitely different with the way her front-left foot was compared to the right. The vet also did see how Raina sits frog-legged and recommended that we start giving her Dasuquin indefinitely, which we will do.

As for the paw, the vet took X-Rays of both her left one and right for comparison (and didn't charge us for the right paw, yay!). I should have a copy of the X-Rays later today if anyone wants to see them, but they revealed two things:

 

1) Nothing is broken, but according to the vet Raina injured her paw in a way that affected her growth plates, and one side stopped growing while the other is still growing, which is why her paw has been turning outwards more the past month.

2) The vet believes, based on the growth plates, that Raina is 1-2 months younger than we were told she is. Which would make her possibly 6-8 weeks when we got her from the rescue (and already spayed!)

The vet recommended an orthopedic surgeon for us to visit and consult with for the next steps. She said she believes the only option is surgery, where they would have to break the bone and possibly take some out. She is not sure of the surgeon would want to do it now or wait until they were sure she is done growing. The vet said if we do not get it fixed she will not walk normally and definitely have arthritis later.

Also, whether it's true or she was just being nice about the previous vet, she said that had the old vet taken X-Rays a month ago they may not have been able to see what was wrong with the growth plates, and even if they did there would not have been anything like a brace that could have corrected it.

[Liz P]

 

Also, whether it's true or she was just being nice about the previous vet, she said that had the old vet taken X-Rays a month ago they may not have been able to see what was wrong with the growth plates, and even if they did there would not have been anything like a brace that could have corrected it.

 

That is true. Growth plate injuries take time to reveal themselves.

 

I would go to the ortho surgeon now. Early intervention is best.

[jglonek]

That is true. Growth plate injuries take time to reveal themselves.

 

I would go to the ortho surgeon now. Early intervention is best.

 

We have a consultation appointment scheduled for Monday. Forgot to add that!

[jvw]

Poor Raina! But it sounds like you are on the right path to getting her all fixed up. Kudos to you for jumping right to action.

[gcv-border]

Good Luck - to you and Raina!