Proper discipline

[Bmm45bm]

Thank you Gloria very much! Very understandable. I did better last week, and he also did better, thought we were going in the right direction. Then this weekend he got very timid and fearful over what I cannot figure out. Recall was terrible, even to the point of running and cowering. He has not been disciplined at all since reading the board other than a firm no when trying to get into trash or chew something he should not. There was no physical punishment just a no or leave it. If he would not stop with a command then I pulled him away from whatever he was doing and tried to refocus his attention with praise or a toy. He also jumped on to the coffee table a couple of times and was told no and taken down and put on the ground only to repeat the behavior. In a horse situation comparison of course u would increase gradually until u achieve and then release. In the puppy situation I did not know what to increase to so kept repeating and redirecting in the same manner, again no physical other than picking him up or pulling him away and verbal. Any input?

Dsmbc, are u saying do not use the "here" command at this time and to later incorporate that?

[Jumpin Boots]

First I want to commend you for being open to advice and willing to try things that are outside of your comfort box.

 

Regarding the sudden fear, puppies have fear periods, where they can suddenly be scared of everything and anything or sometimes just new things. These are natural periods that will happen several times over the first year or so of their lives. You want to be extra cautious during these periods to no overwhelm him with new things, don't force people, places, things on him. Bad experiences during fear periods can take a long time to repair.

 

I think you handled the coffer table instance well. The only thing I would have added is that after the second time, I probably would have put my pup in his crate or xpen with a chew toy and let him have a timeout. I wouldn't have done this in a negative or angry way, just pick him up from the table and remove him from the environment all together.

 

Just some thoughts.

[gcv-border]

Great progress.

Remember, he is a puppy - so there will be 2 steps forward, then 2 back, then 3 forward, then 2 back. Just be consistent in your training methods. As you know from horses, consistency is critical.

I would like to point out the difference between a 'trick' and a 'behavior' (at least this is how I approach this.) You (the general you) can teach a trick in a few minutes or a few sessions. 'Sit' is a good example. Easy to teach a sit - which I might consider a trick. Or a 'shake' (another trick). But to teach a behavior really well takes more time (sometimes months) with lots of advances and reversals. This is because a 'behavior' (as I think about it) is more complex and requires more, and longer, focus (and we all know puppies have a very short focus period). I would call loose leash walking, heeling, a long stay, etc. examples of a behavior.

Another important difference between a 'trick' and a 'behavior' is duration. Often, a trick lasts a few seconds, whereas a behavior is of longer duration. A simple 'sit' = trick. A sit with a stay would be considered a behavior.

Have you considered incorporating crate training to manage him in the house? There are MANY discussions regarding crate training on these forums. Search on 'crate training' and you will have reading for several hours.

 

Jovi

[Bmm45bm]

The crate idea makes sense. I can't thank y'all enough. I will definitely try that. This is harder than raising 3 kiddos and horses!

[GentleLake]

I'd been wondering if you had any experience with children. Since you have, it might be helpful for you to remember what they were like when they were infants and toddlers. I'm sure you had to tell them more than once to stop doing things they shouldn't be doing . . . and that they'd go right back to doing it at the next opportunity!

 

This is a totally normal part of growing up, both for human children and puppies. They try out all sorts of new things to see how the world works. In order to be civilized members of society, though, they have to learn that doing some things aren't acceptable. But their attention spans are short and it often (usually?) takes many repetitions of a mild correction before it sinks in that this really isn't an acceptable behavior. But it eventually does (w/ the odd exceptions of sociopaths and the like) with the right instruction.

 

The right instruction being the important thing, of course. Just as we now know that spanking and other physical forms of disciplining children result in adults who are prone to violence, we also know that harsh corrections will negatively affect a developing puppy.

 

I'm going to join the others who've expressed admiration for your willingness to try things outside your comfort zone and to try some new approaches.

 

And oh, yeah . . . crates are the best thing ever for puppies. Keeping him out of trouble when you can't be actively supervising him will save you hours of grief in having to correct unwanted behaviors he's tried out when you weren't watching.

[Gloria Atwater]

Thank you Gloria very much! Very understandable. I did better last week, and he also did better, thought we were going in the right direction. Then this weekend he got very timid and fearful over what I cannot figure out. Recall was terrible, even to the point of running and cowering. He has not been disciplined at all since reading the board other than a firm no when trying to get into trash or chew something he should not. There was no physical punishment just a no or leave it. If he would not stop with a command then I pulled him away from whatever he was doing and tried to refocus his attention with praise or a toy. He also jumped on to the coffee table a couple of times and was told no and taken down and put on the ground only to repeat the behavior. In a horse situation comparison of course u would increase gradually until u achieve and then release. In the puppy situation I did not know what to increase to so kept repeating and redirecting in the same manner, again no physical other than picking him up or pulling him away and verbal. Any input?

Dsmbc, are u saying do not use the "here" command at this time and to later incorporate that?

 

 

Glad to hear you're continuing on!

 

As for the fear thing, it could be any number of things. If you did the pinning a few times, he may have connected some imaginary dots in his head and now he's decided things are scary. But more possible, something you didn't even notice scared him. Someone slammed a door or dropped something noisy on the floor and you didn't even notice - but he did. Who knows?

 

And also, border collie puppies tend to go through various fear periods. It's normal and my philosophy is generally to ignore the behavior. Treat him normally, be kind and patient and reward him for positive things, and this should pass.

 

When he's little, do lots of calling to play or treat, and then within a couple seconds, let him go. Take him for little walks and feed him treats, and hide from him for a moment and see if he seeks you out. Then as he gets older, @ 4 months, start using a long line - 20 or 30 feet, perhaps - and call him, reel him gently in, praise and pet him - and then let him go. Always make the recall a positive association. Do NOT call him when you see he's too distracted to respond. In those cases, just walk his little butt down and retrieve him kindly. Don't try to call him when the activity he's engaged in is way more interesting than you. That recall is going to be a no-go for some time, so just work with him and let him grow and learn.

 

As for the coffee table jumping and stuff like that - again, patience. It takes patience. He's a baby, his attention span is sporadic, and sometimes they even take things like that as a game! Don't escalate - distract. If he wants table jumping, you hand him one of his toys or chewies and engage him with something else, or just remove him from temptation.

 

Someone already said, it's a lot like raising a toddler! He's going to test his boundaries, he's going to go through the canine equivalent of a "no" phase, he's going to seem to back-slide from time to time. Be patient. Just keep showing him the right thing to do. Don't just say no, give him a correct thing to replace the bad behavior. (Though I personally have no problems with a firm NO when he's doing something that's just plain bad or dangerous. Puppies need boundaries, too.)

 

He's going to be a very busy, very bright little guy. It's what border collies do. Picture a 3 year old with an IQ of 350 and a top speed of 30 miles per hour, and you're getting the idea.

 

TOTALLY recommend crate training. We used to just have a lot of chewed up things. Now all three of our current dogs grew up sleeping in crates and as adults, they still sleep in them with the crate doors open. A crate, properly trained, is a "den" and safe haven for a dog.

 

This is useful for the dog as well as you, because it will be his safe place when he wants to get away from family activity. Just remember, positive training, lots of treats. And buy his bedding at the thrift store, old towels or blankets, because he IS going to teethe and chew.

 

~ Gloria

[Bmm45bm]

Oh yes on the kid experience but no expert yet, I have three, 6, 4, and 1 currently so handful. I started him out in the crate, and unfortunately he spends too much time there I feel. He is there most nights from approx 10 until 5, and goes out to potty a couple of times between then of course, then during the day he gets back in around 7 and is let out again around 11 for around 30 mins of play on my lunch and then back up until approx 4 and out from 4-10. How do u all that have a puppy border collie that don't have outside facilities work the puppy and crate time? I do have land and an outside kennel, but with Christmas time coming and a new cute puppy I don't trust the chances of someone deciding he would make a great gift for their children.

[gcv-border]

I do have land and an outside kennel, but with Christmas time coming and a new cute puppy I don't trust the chances of someone deciding he would make a great gift for their children.

?? Not sure I understand. Are you afraid that if you left him outside in your kennel, someone may come by and steal him?

 

I don't have an outside kennel so I was able to take my pup out frequently throughout the day - mostly for potty breaks. If you are worried about him getting enough exercise/stimulation, remember that mental stimulation will also wear out a dog - and you can do that (obedience training, training stupid pet tricks, brain puzzles) inside.

 

I am also interested in how others handle puppy energy when they (the owner) is off at a job during the day. Looking forward to the answers.

 

Jovi

[Bmm45bm]

Yes I am afraid of that honestly we are what I consider semi rural, but I don't have a good feeling about leaving him out. Last Christmas my brother was home to visit and his 80 lb chessie had on a heavy duty collar with riveted tag, went missing first day, found him 5 days later with the brass tag having been cut off with tin snips or something similar. No doubt someone thought he would make a nice present until he ran from them and we found him. That tag could not have been damaged any other way than by a person.

[GentleLake]

There are more and more reports about dog thefts all over the country in all sorts of areas. . . .

 

Organized groups of people known as bunchers will go through areas stealing dogs left outside.

 

There are videos on YouTube of people driving up in vans and stealing dogs out of fenced yards.

 

I dread the thought of where these dogs end up.

 

One of the major online news outlets (NBC, I think) ran a piece a few months ago about dogs being stolen for reward money. Not all make it safely back home.

 

So you're wise to be cautious.

[Bmm45bm]

What have others done raising border collie pups inside?

[GentleLake]

I try to leave a pup out as much as possible as long as it can be supervised. If I'm doing something that involves enough concentration on my part that I can't be watch the pup, they go in the crate or ex pen.

 

An intermediate practice is to tether the pup to you. A six foot leash and a carabiner on your belt is the easiest way. Pup doesn't have the option of going too far from you, so learns to stay at your side wile not getting underfoot.

 

You can use all three methods (crate, free w/ supervision and tethered to you), switching off as circumstances dictate and allowing the pup as much freedom as is practical for the situation.

[Alchemist]

You can use all three methods (crate, free w/ supervision and tethered to you), switching off as circumstances dictate and allowing the pup as much freedom as is practical for the situation.

 

I crate, watch indoors like a hawk, or use an X pen (under loose supervision - say I'm 15 feet away) when pups are little. When outdoors, pups are under constant close supervision when they're little. There's so much they can eat that's toxic (if it grows in the garden, there's a 50% chance it's poisonous, it seems), and it's too easy to let bad habits (like digging) become entrenched if you don't catch them. And I once saw a coyote in my back yard (in suburban Baltimore!). Once a pup hits six months or so and no longer seems to feel it needs to taste everything on earth, I'll start to allow it in the fenced back yard for short periods unsupervised - but only when I'm home. Dogs come inside (or go with us) if we aren't home.

 

The good thing is that if you keep a close eye on them, they're housebroken within a few weeks. And if you crate them or put them in an X-pen with something to chew on when you can't supervise them, there's no chance they'll learn how much fun it can be to become destructive

[rushdoggie]

Puppies get crated when I am not home until they are adult and demonstrate they can be home alone without destructive behavior.

 

I work at arranging my day so that puppy gets some attention/training exercise before work, I come home at lunch for a quick out and about, then after work we have a run and play, some training or out and about with me to classes or other excursions, and loose house time. After dinner we usually do a bit of training as well. On weekends and early days they get lots of free running time and we usually go out to various dog places.

 

I use ex pens and gates when I need to confine a little while I am home and otherwise occupied. Puppies also get a bunch of meals frozen in Kong toys and chewie time to prevent boredom.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

The OP writes: "I started him out in the crate, and unfortunately he spends too much time there I feel. He is there most nights from approx 10 until 5, and goes out to potty a couple of times between then of course, then during the day he gets back in around 7 and is let out again around 11 for around 30 mins of play on my lunch and then back up until approx 4 and out from 4-10."

 

I make it eight hours of possible pup-human interaction every day. That's ok - just keep the exceptions exceptional.

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

Re: crating. Remember that pups, like babies, also need a lot of sleep to recharge, etc. If he's getting plenty of attention from you when he is out of his crate, it's not harming him to spend time in his crate to rest (and *learn* to rest).

 

I crate puppies until they're reliable in a house, which means they're crated while I'm at work, and crated for at least some period of time until they can be reliable at night. My 7.5 month old is crated during the day when I'm at work, but is free at night because she is able to sleep through the night, doesn't destroy things at night, and doesn't have accidents. But for the first 4-5 months she was crated at night, in the bedroom with me. But when she was out of the crate, I also made sure that she had plenty of interaction with me and with my other dogs.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

As for the coffee table jumping and stuff like that - again, patience. It takes patience. He's a baby, his attention span is sporadic, and sometimes they even take things like that as a game! Don't escalate - distract. If he wants table jumping, you hand him one of his toys or chewies and engage him with something else, or just remove him from temptation.

 

Someone already said, it's a lot like raising a toddler!

~ Gloria

Anyone who has had to deal with a toddler throwing his toy out of the pram again, and again and again.......will know exactly what you mean.

[Jescano]

Once a pup hits six months or so and no longer seems to feel it needs to taste everything on earth,

There's hope!

[allforone]

Usually walking away and calling in a nice voice will encourage a pup to come/follow.It needs to bond and find safety with you.For a very wilfull pup that is not letting you "in" you could let it drag a light line.Call it in when you are going to feed it,take care and time.Firm but fair.It knows nothing.Does it even know it's name yet?