Proper discipline

[Bmm45bm]

First time poster, background and questions to follow. I will give cliff notes version. Border collie growing up as a family pet, then purchased one early out of college that was a started herding dog from reputable working breeder. Took a few lessons on stock approx 10 and then life got in the way, she had a lot of instinct and not enough work for my life at the time so she became a pet, frisbee and ball maniac. She passed and I held off for 4 years replacing her. This time approached the same breeder and picked up a 6 week old pup that the buyer backed out on last minute. First time ever having a male and a long time since I have had any puppy training experience I train horses have a bit of a firm hand I have gotten a decent recall in two weeks but he has his moments, my hard part is the discipline when he blows me off and I approach and he attempts to run. That gets a small spanking nothing terrible but to et his attention to which I then back off and recall again normally with success. I want a pet and a friend for life, the male to me is more sensitive than my previous females and I am afraid the firm hand is too much possibly. Thoughts? And thank u

[Gideon's girl]

Most BCs are very sensitive and a firm word crushes them, a firm hand is usually far more than they need. Does your dog have a good down? I have one that doesn't want to come the first time because he knows that the fun might end if he does, so I do 2 different things. First, I make sure that I am not reinforcing the notion that come means the fun is ending. I call him, play silly with him , and release him to go play some more. That makes coming to me worth it, every time. Second, if he blows off a come because he is too intent on something else, i give him a down to break his focus and then call him again and suddenly he can hear me again. NO MATTER WHAT, if you call your dog, it should be a positive thing, NEVER negative. Don't call if you can't make it positive.

[Sue R]

My first question is just how old is this pup now? If you picked him up at six weeks (which is too young to leave his mother in the opinion of many) and you've only had him two weeks, that would make him eight weeks old. An eight-week old pup is not going to have a solid recall, is not going to be deliberately "blowing you off" but instead is being a normal puppy that is distracted by just about anything and everything, and doesn't need to be "spanked" for anything. JMO.

 

Maybe I'm not getting a true picture from what you wrote but this is what it sounds like to me.

 

PS - This is the Training Discussion for stockdogs. Perhaps your questions might get more feedback in the General section at this stage of your pup's life, even if he might be destined to be a working stockdog. However, if your questions do pertain to a pup that is going to be a working stockdog, this is a reasonable place to ask.

[Bmm45bm]

To clarify, yes he is basically just at 9 weeks now, so I do know I have to get my expectations in line. As I said this is my first puppy in over 15 years and my last bc was a started 9 month old who I began training with her breeder on stock. When I got her though she had a very solid lie down and stand and recall. I do know he is distracted but how do I make sure I get his attention when so to ensure he doesn't pick up the habit of ignoring me in the future is a better question I suppose. He certainly doesn't have a lie down yet and that would be my next training question as to tips and tricks. My goal is to raise a stock dog which is why I posted here. If it is more appropriate at this point to post elsewhere please do not hesitate to let me know. I value the working dog training methods more than a strict obedience dog without trying to sound condescending as that is the route I wish to take. Thanks so much for the replies, and I look forward to learning from you all.

[Gloria Atwater]

Oh, goodness! If he's 9 weeks old, he's a baby baby! Don't expect anything of him but eat, play, sleep.

Seriously, be careful of the whole discipline thing at this stage. His attention span is tiny, his interest in the world is HUGE, and the idea of focusing on anything for more than few seconds is mostly beyond him. You can't expect a "decent recall" on a 9 week old puppy who is going to be distracted five times while crossing a room. You can't even really discipline him at this age, save verbal corrections for hard bites or by taking inappropriate things away from him and giving him appropriate toys or chewies.

If you work with horses, you understand pressure and release. Know this about a border collie puppy: you are pressure. If you go to catch him and he runs away, it's because you signal the end of whatever fun thing he's been doing. That's pressure, in his mind. So, you want to remove the pressure by making your presence the Most Awesome Thing Ever. When he comes to you, praise him, play with him, treat him - then let him go. Don't make catching him the end of his play or fun. Make being caught a good thing and then he gets to return to his fun. Do it then let it go. He's too young for much of anything else.

Also know that he's going to go through stages where he seems to back-slide. This is normal for an intelligent dog like the BC. It's not disobedience, it's just growing awareness of himself and his world, and a natural urge to test his boundaries. If he's easily distracted, it's not him deliberately ignoring you: it's that he's so smart and keen that he sees EVERYthing and his mind doesn't yet understand focusing on just one thing for very long.

Your job, therefore, is to gently shape and mold his behaviors, and remind yourself that the stages he will go through are just that: stages. At 6 months, at 10 months, at 1 year, at 2 years, all the dogs I've had seem to hit periods where they turn into little rascals who've forgotten half of what I've told him. Patience is the key - the same as when bringing on a promising colt. You don't want to overload a young colt's mind and it's the same with a BC pup.

For now, I would suggest just focusing on helping him become a good citizen in your world. Look for and think of ways to make it easy for him to work with you and please you. Make it rewarding and comfortable for him to partner up with you. The focus and keen attention will come, but only with time. Please be patient and don't ask too much, too soon. He will be distracted and he will seem to ignore you. But he's not being a bad dog. Do not mistake it for that. He's just got a big brain growing, there, and these dogs are bred to think. Make yourself awesome to him, and the rest will come.

Best of luck!

~ Gloria

[juliepoudrier]

I'd try to run away too if I thought the human approaching meant I would get spanking, no matter how "small." If you don't want the pup "blowing you off" (and I'll add on to those that say he's a baby and doesn't even have thoughts about blowing you off at this age), then put a long line on him so you can reel him in and he never has an option to ignore you. That would be a much better solution than any sort of punishment (and even the mildest spanking is still punishment).

 

Make recalls fun. Border collies are not horses and generally don't need training with a firm hand, whatever that really means. Seriously, if your horse is out in the pasture and you call him and he doesn't come, do you go up to him and whack him once you catch him? What do you think that teaches a horse, or a pup?

 

J.

[GentleLake]

Let me see if I've got this right . . . you've got a 9 week old puppy that you got too young from its litter. And you're physically punishing him for not doing what you haven't yet taught him to do and he's really too young to expect to do with any consistency anyway?

 

Right now what you're doing is teaching your pup that he's got no good reason to come to you at all. Ever. You're a scary person who he wants to play puppy games with and you hit him.

 

You say you want a friend? Damn. I wouldn't want to be your friend if you treated me like that. And he's just a baby.

 

You've gotten some great advice from the other posters, especially Gloria. I'm going to add another bit. Please find yourself a good positive reinforcement trainer and enroll in a puppy class. You'll learn some wonderful ways to work with your puppy and not against him. It'll be a much better approach to creating a meaningful bond than the way you're doing it now.

 

Sorry to come off so harshly, but telling us you're spanking a 9 week old puppy and admitting you have a heavy handed approach, with him and your horses, just really rubbed me the wrong way.

[red russel]

okay. So she came for help with her puppy and is now getting spanked. Perhaps we should heed our own advice regarding being positive, fun, and show a nice release of pressure here.

 

dave

[YeseniaBeauchamp]

OP remembering a well trained dog can cloud the judgement and set unrealistic expectations of a puppy. Especially such a young one.

 

This puppy left his mother and siblings two weeks too early in his development and us looking to you for comfort and friendship and trust and love. The time for discipline is when he can cognitively understand a learned skill and chooses to ignore it. At this age he needs to learn, first and foremost, that his trust can be placed in this new family he has suddenly been forced into. Remember his English is worse than mine.

To put this in human terms, this is cognitively speaking the equivalent if a four year old in a new country where he doesn't speak the language being punished for not being able to figure out how to work a puzzle meant for a twelve year old.

 

He is a baby baby. A nearly blank slate and what he experiences now of the world around him will impact his trust of that world. Your role as this point is a nurturing role, a gentle guide, a friend, a place of trust and love.

 

To expect a recall of him now and to punish him now is equivalent to putting a hard training bit in a two day old foal and expecting him to be able to do a dressage pass.

 

Change your expectation at this point and your approach. The way to teach a solid recall is positive positive positive positive. I begin training a recall from day one but I do it by calling the puppy's name and running backwards clapping my hands and then let him catch me and then praise praise praise praise. I do this every single time I feed him. And I NEVER NEVER NEVER call him to me for a correction not even ONCE HE UNDERSTANDS what is expected after he is old enough to handle a correction.

 

Best of luck and enjoy nurturing your puppy and creating a bond that will last until the last beating of his heart.

[Sue R]

What Gloria and Julie said, in particular, but good advice all around! Both good stockdog people.

[Bmm45bm]

Thank you all for the feedback. I won't defend my approach in the least as that is why I posted as I knew it was not being effective. Horses are very different than dogs, pressure to them is just that and Gloria makes a fine analogy to show the difference to how I should approach. He does not get spanked as it came across. I take him firmly when he does not recall and pin him until he calms and is focused on me which does not take long at all, back off and recall again. It works for that one time, but that's it which is not what I want. I should have been clear. To be honest I do not do well with the praise thing, and have to work on that. A colt doesn't require praise, his praise is releasing that pressure or pinning in this case so I will focus on the right kind of positive reinforcement instead. No apology necessary, I came here for the good, bad, and the ugly. Thank you all.

[Sue R]

[waffles]

Pinning him is probably more scary for him than getting a butt smacked. Again, imagine if someone came up to you and physically held you to the ground until you complied. Why would you want to come to that person?? I definitely think you and your dog would greatly benefit from enrolling in a puppy obedience class-they're really fun and you can get in person help and watch others as well.

 

No matter what though, it will be quite some time until a reliable recall can be expected on a pup. Google "recall games" and watching videos of others training. That will help you see what others are doing and how a recall is supposed to he the happiest thing ever. I still love practicing recalls with my dog just for the fun of it.

[Bmm45bm]

I believe I probably need the training more than pup does truly. I tried this morning with the positive praise and really stink at that! I am a quiet kinda stoic guy so this great puppy puppy stuff is tough. I will check and see what classes may be available, not in the greatest area for that sort of thing. Thank u all again.

[GentleLake]

Practice makes perfect.

 

Really, you don't have to be all gushy to be positive. How 'bout just a nice pat and a cheerful "Good dog!" At least that won't be scary to him, and should be encouraging.

 

If you can manage to be more enthusiastic, all the better. And you could also try carrying some of his kibble or other small treats in your pocket and give him one as a reward while you're telling him he's a good dog.

 

I'm not a really effusive person, either. But in the interest of training and building positive association for our relationships to grow on, I can manage some happy talk with my dogs.

 

I believe a lot of developing good relationships with our animals -- and other people -- involves trying to think from their perspective and to consider how you'd like to be treated yourself in any given situation. As Waffles says, imagine how you'd feel if some giant person came up to you and pinned you to the ground and you didn't even understand the reason why. How would it make you feel towards that person?

 

If you can do that -- along with adjusting your expectation to ones that are appropriate for his age -- I'm sure you'll begin to have much more success with your pup.

 

But I'd still recommend enrolling in a positive training class ASAP. It's really so very helpful to have someone who can demonstrate the methods and explain the process while it's happening. They'll also be able to see both your and your dog's reactions in ways that you can't alone and give feedback, which is very helpful.

 

Good luck.

[Sue R]

What GentleLake said is so true, that we (as trainers) need to look at what we are doing *from the dog's point of view*. And that's something that I can have a lot of trouble with, being rather narrow in my own outlook on things. I have witnessed how changing my approach from what I was used to and what I was comfortable with, to an approach that worked better from the dog's perspective, made a very positive change. Now, many of the things that were once uncomfortable for me or counter-intuitive or just *not my style* have become second nature because I've tried them (and given them a reasonable try and not just a token try) and found they work, they work well, and we are all the happier for it.

 

Each person and each dog is their own entity - my husband, for instance, still does *not* utilize treats but I do for certain things (and I didn't used to use them for pups or any off-stock training of any sort). I have found they work when used well to accomplish what I want to accomplish. I also have had happy, mannerly, responsive dogs over the years that never saw at treat in training, and learned just fine. There are varied, humane ways to approach training a dog.

 

You'll find what works for you and your pup, and I hope you are willing and able to give some "new" approaches a try. You just might be very pleasantly surprised with the results, and your pup may be very happy with them, too.

 

PS - You don't have to be "gushy" but since pups respond positively and enthusiastically to higher-pitched vocalizations, cheerful "puppy, puppy, puppy!" and similar phrases that get a pup's attention in a positive manner can really be helpful in building good response and good bonds. A nice, soothing, "Good boy!" is a good alternative if you can't be comfy with more effusive praise. Save the stern voice for when it's needed and then it will have an impact.

 

PPS - I would not "pin" a little puppy. I have nothing against physical restraint when it's needed but pinning is very frightening to a pup of this age. I would suggest that strengthening your bond is the first priority at this stage of life, and an appropriate physical restraint might just be picking up the pup and holding him until he calms down rather than pinning him in any way. JMO.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

There's praise and praise. Like the OP I'm not particularly good at effusive praise and find that chirpy-chirpy stuff at many obedience classes counterproductive and annoying. Body language is important praise. When I'm calling a pup I'll hunker at his level, smile and physically welcome him with my body as well as words. A high pitched "Puppy,puppy,puppy" is appropriate. If you're the very best, most attractive creature in your baby dog's universe - and if he isn't so focused he CANNOT see or hear you - he'll come. Give him a pat and release. You don't teach "Stay" just yet.

 

Donald McCaig

[erin_ohagan]

Add my hearty agreement to the "find a puppy class" to enroll him (and yourself) in ASAP.

I work at a zoo and I observe animal training on a daily basis, though I don't actually train any animal myself. I felt like I knew a LOT about training, positive reinforcement, operant conditioning etc. Yet I still had a LOT to learn about implementing those training methods as well as how to apply them to an animal like BC. It was so good to have an impartial person observe what I was doing, and correct me as needed so that I could best communicate with my dog. They were very clear: other than doggy adolescence dogs do not DELIBERATELY ignore our cues. They were super helpful. Can't recommend obedience classes enough for dog owners who just need that extra little help!

[5Bordercollies]

OP - someone once said about praise that if you're not feeling at least a bit silly while doing it, you're probably doing it wrong! I know I still often feel a bit silly going gagga when one of the dogs have done something right. Then I just remind myself it's worth every bit of feeling silly because it breeds good behaviors.

[gcv-border]

All good advice above ^^^. I congratulate you on being able to take the tough love for your dog's sake. I think you will end up with a wonderful friend if you concentrate on trust, bonding and positive reinforcement.

 

Your comment about not being an effusive guy reminded me of a show that I watched. It was called "Alpha Dogs", and was one of those reality shows. It showed the workings of a commercial security dog training business in Ohio/Indiana? All the primary trainers dressed and looked like biker guys, but they all had high security clearances --- and more importantly, they all used very positive reinforcement for these high-drive, manic, workaholic dogs. Yes, they used high voices -- and play times --- and toys, etc. for these dogs that are expected to mature into serious, working partners. So, I guess what I am saying is that we (the dog 'industry') are using techniques today that are miles better than they were 15-20 years ago, and when used appropriately, the dogs are better trained and are a much more willing partner.

 

Jovi

[juliepoudrier]

I do the happy "puppy, puppy, puppy" call too. It really works!

 

I am not a gushy person, nor am I generally a treat-based trainer. I do occasionally use treats, but it's not my go-to thing, because it's just now how I ever started out training.

 

I have raised a bunch of puppies and trained stockdogs from puppyhood to successfully trialing at the open level. All of my dogs have good basic manners (that is, they can be walked off leash in populated areas or at a dog trial and not embarass me). You don't *have* to throw tons of treats at them or make a fool of yourself, but these dogs have been bred for a very long time to want to work with their shepherd, so you should be able to work with that without resorting to intimidation. As a caution, I have known a few dogs who were so reactive to their owners' displeasure that although they once might have been a useful working dog had to be given something else to do. Whatever you shape in your pup now, good or bad, will affect all the things you do with him in the future. You can have a happy, willing partner or one who works out of fear of discipline. Imagine yourself in a working situation and consider what sort of boss you'd rather work for: the one who is constantly correcting, criticizing, discipling or the one who withholds discipline except for the really serious mistakes but otherwise is supportive and helpful and teaching?

 

I have a 7-month old now. She reliably comes when called. I never used treats to train that. I did sound happy when I called her and did as others have suggested: called her to me, gave a few pats, a quick wrestle, whatever puppy play she wanted, and then let her go again.

 

The only time a use "discipline" is if the dog is already completely trained and truly is just ignoring a command. Even then, I try very hard to consider if there might be extenuating circumstances. I've noticed my 12-year-old not calling of sheep very easily if I called her from a distance. It was sort of pissing me off. But then I stopped to consider her age and realized that her hearing may not be as good as it once was. I don't know about you, but I'd feel awful if I disciplined my dog for not listening if I found out after the fact that her hearing was going. I approach puppy training the same way. If the pup isn't getting it or isn't reliably responding as I want it to, I try to think of what *I* might be doing wrong (that is, how *I* am failing to communicate).

 

The relationship you develop with your pup now will set the tone for your working relationship for years to come. If you want a happy, willing partner, please try to lay off the harsh stuff (and as others have noted, pinning a puppy is very scary to the pup--it's akin to an alpha roll and I think enough studies have proven the flaws in that approach). Try to let him be a puppy and love life. You can put a lightweight line on him to make it easier to catch him, and honestly, if you call and reel him in if he ignores you and then let him go again he will soon figure out that coming when called isn't a bad thing or something he need fear. I suspect right now that by making life unpleasant for him when you do catch him, you're simply reinforcing the idea to him that going to the human (or having the human approach him) is NOT desirable.

 

And lest you believe we're all bleeding hearts, I will use punishment, but I save if for the truly egregious stuff like trying to kill the chickens or harassing livestock during training. For the latter, I'm still careful about how/when I would use punishment, because often what you take out (deliberately or inadvertently) is very difficult, if not impossible, to put back. And really, unless a dog is truly a super hard head, usually just voice and presence is enough to intimidate ("discipline") a dog. So by starting now to temper your training approach to your pup, perhaps you can train *yourself* to be kinder and more thoughtful when it comes time to train him for stockwork. I think you'll both be a lot happier.

 

J.

[Shetlander]

I've noticed my 12-year-old not calling of sheep very easily if I called her from a distance. It was sort of pissing me off. But then I stopped to consider her age and realized that her hearing may not be as good as it once was. I don't know about you, but I'd feel awful if I disciplined my dog for not listening if I found out after the fact that her hearing was going.

 

So glad you were wise enough to consider hearing problems! Years ago, I thought one of my dogs was starting to stubbornly ignore his recalls. One day I had it and went to get him. I started scolding him, which is stupid I know. It was only when I saw the look of confusion and alarm/fear on his face that I realized he hadn't heard me. And I must have seemed like a lunatic to him since he had no idea why I was angry. He's been gone 12 years and I still feel bad for betraying his trust like that. When my Sheltie began having hearing problems a few years back, I knew enough to give her the benefit of the doubt. When others said she had selective hearing or was being ornery, I made it clear I did not agree and my sweet biddable girl was not to be corrected for "disobedience."

[Gloria Atwater]

Thank you all for the feedback. I won't defend my approach in the least as that is why I posted as I knew it was not being effective. Horses are very different than dogs, pressure to them is just that and Gloria makes a fine analogy to show the difference to how I should approach. He does not get spanked as it came across. I take him firmly when he does not recall and pin him until he calms and is focused on me which does not take long at all, back off and recall again. It works for that one time, but that's it which is not what I want. I should have been clear. To be honest I do not do well with the praise thing, and have to work on that. A colt doesn't require praise, his praise is releasing that pressure or pinning in this case so I will focus on the right kind of positive reinforcement instead. No apology necessary, I came here for the good, bad, and the ugly. Thank you all.

 

 

Hi again!

 

I've a little story to tell, but first a warning: don't pin him. That will scare the bejabbers out of a pup and if continued, it could lead to fear behaviors and evasiveness. Border collies are too thoughtful a dog for that kind of treatment and they can make weird connections that you would never imagine and then you end up with a behavior you never wanted.

 

As for positive praise, it doesn't have to be gooey and pink-bunny-ish. You're a manly horse dude and that's not part of your lexicon. I get that. But don't you ever talk to your horses? Don't you ever speak in a low, reassuring voice and give a pat on the shoulder? Don't you ever make soothing sounds to calm or settle a horse you're working with?

 

That's all a dog needs. Calm, reassuring, friendly tones of voice. It's not baby talk. It's just you letting the pup know all is right in the world.

 

So, here's the story. I've a very good friend who spent 25 years in the paint horse world. She raised and trained more colts than I could shake a stick at, and owned and handled her own stud. She also has Australian shepherds of fairly tough stockdog breeding. But in recent years, she's had a couple pups who were immensely talented - but they couldn't take a hard tone of voice. It just freaked those dogs out. So, a friend and I who are border collie people began to advise her.

 

We said, Your dogs aren't horses. If you lunge a horse and turn him to go the other way, he knows he's got it right because you step back and let him move freely. You don't have to say anything. But a dog is going to look to you for approval. He needs to know that you're pleased with what he's doing. If you set him up to drive a group of sheep and then you stop talking to him ... he's going to wonder what's wrong. He's going to wonder if he's doing the right thing and possibly even offer the wrong behaviors because you're not staying in touch.

 

And my friend listened. She started talking to her dogs. And it was awkward and weird and unnatural, at first, but now it's second nature. And she now has a border collie pup, too.

 

But here's the thing. Horses "hear" what your body and your hands and your legs tell them. A border collie needs more than that. Your hands and body are part of the package, of course. But your voice is his primary means of communication. When a border collie is fully trained, his communication with us is entirely auditory. Words, commands, whistles - that's the language between us.

 

What you tell a horse with your physicality you now need to learn to do with your voice. Not your hands. Hear what we are saying. You need to become awesome to this pup. You don't have to be effusive. You don't have to be gooey. You don't have to sound like a grandma with her poodle in her to purse. But where a horse's reward is a release of pressure, a dog's reward is the absence of pressure. Especially a border collie. They are ALL about pressure and the wrong pressure applied wrongly can result in unfortunate things.

 

Practice talking to your pup. Talk quietly. Talk calmly. Talk to him like a very small future best friend. Discuss the weather and the price of hay, whatever! And it never hurts to carry a ziploc baggie of cheese bits or hotdog chunks in your pockets. Over the years, we've baited the heck out of our pups with those.

 

Best of luck. And no pinning! He's way, way too little to even begin to understand. Become awesome to your puppy. That's your homework.

 

~ Gloria

[Alchemist]

Gloria's response should be "pinned"!!!!

[dsmbc]

Lot's of good advice here. One thing I would add is you don't want to start using your recall words until you pup is older and has learned what it means and will reliably come to you, otherwise all you are doing is teaching your dog that those words don't mean anything, or worse, they mean run the other way.

 

Hunkering down like Donald said with the dog in fairly close proximity, calling puppy, puppy, puppy and rewarding with pats and a little play is a great way to lay the foundation of a recall. I will also gently push the puppy away (in a playful way) as opposition reflex they will come right back to you.