Tommy Coyote Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 This is one of my customer's dogs and I am at a loss as how to handle this. And I know there are border collies with the same problem. This dog is a rescue that I think is a pug, chihuahua cross (those are popular right now). But he is agressive toward me. There are 4 dogs in the household and the other 3 are just fine. But this new little guy makes me crazy. He gets along with his owner just fine. The minute I show up he starts to bark at me - and stare the most aggressive stare. When I walk past him he runs up behind me and bites my ankles. Or yesterday he ran up and tried to bite my knees. If I make eye contact with him he just stares. If he didn't weight about 10 pounds I think he would really be a dangerous dog. I tried just stamping my feet when he bites but his reaction is just to get more agressive. I have to admit that I kind of feel like using him for a football. I go every day. And everyday I open the back door and let everybody runs out. Then they all come back in and get a cookie. I would think that eventually he would get it. But he doesn't. Every day he acts like he has never seen me before in his life. I am beginning to wonder if he has a brain. So what do I do? Obviously, what I'm doing isn't working. I've been just totally ignoring him and not making eye contact at all. That works better than acknowleding him because then he really gets aggressive. Any ideas for making this little guy my friend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 So what do I do? Obviously, what I'm doing isn't working. I've been just totally ignoring him and not making eye contact at all. That works better than acknowleding him because then he really gets aggressive. Any ideas for making this little guy my friend? What happens if you toss treats on the floor for him when he first sees you when you arrive? Is he too far over threshold to pay attention to them, or would he run away from you to get treats if you throw them away from you on the floor? What I would do in this instance depends a lot on the answer to that question!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 When I first get there I open the back door and everybody just runs outside in a pack. He is OK at that point. He just runs right out with the rest. When he comes back in he runs right past me to get into the house and then comes back to where I am. I give everybody their cookie and he takes it and runs into the front room and drops it on the floor. Then he comes back in my direction and starts to bark at me - and stare at me. The other dogs then steal his cookie. You would think that he would catch on. He just stands and barks and stares from that point on. I don't think he likes for me to actually come into the house or the bedroom (it's a very small house and all the rooms run into each other). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Sounds like you coming into the house is putting him in a state where figuring it out isn't really an option for him. Is the owner aware of the situation? If I were the owner of the dog, I would want to do some behavior modification to help alleviate the situation. Really, you are kind of limited because this isn't your dog. If the owner is willing to help, you could have the owner meet with you, separate out the other dogs, and play open bar/close bar with you approaching and then retreating. If the owner is willing to help, you could also do an exercise where you bring the dog into the house (preferably alone), treat, and retreat back out the door. Things like that would probably help to desensitize the dog to your presence and teach him that it is good for you to be around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Can you easily approach him when you first get there? Will he take a treat from you then? If so, I would leash him when you get there. Give him a few treats. If they have a crate, crate him while the others get out (provided he lets you handle him of course). Then I would handwalk him in the yard for a while when the others are back up. Lots of treats and maybe pets if he is ok with that. Maybe the pack mentality just gets him too overstimulated. BUT...of course this is only provided he can be approached easily in the beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Today went a little better. Instead of just giving him his cookie whole I broke it up in little pieces and gave them to him one at a time at different intervals. His eyes were not quite so aggressive. Man, if this dog weighed 60 pounds or something he would be really dangerous. I am very careful to move slowly around the dogs so they always know what I'm doing. And I'm very careful to keep my voice calm and friendly. And I use his name a lot. I'm afraid to try and handle him. He does not hesitate to bite at all. And I think it would really scare him. Is this a fear behavior or is it something else? Being a rescue that was just found running around is it possible that I just remind him of someone that was mean to him? I knew a border collie one time that acted a whole lot like this. All you had to do was stand there and she would run up from behind and bite whatever she could get ahold of and then take off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 I wonder though...in my limited experience, a dog that is showing true aggression, and I would almost add fear as well, has never taken treats from me. And I have fostered some pretty questionable dogs. Got one now. But being that he is a rescue...you are right. Who knows. Odd though. Would love to hear others advice on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 7, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Oh, one other thing. I just read this week that a dog that is nervous or frightened will wag it's tail on the left side. A dog that is not scared or nervous will wag it's tail on the right side. (I hope I didn't get that backward) People have trouble reading this because their tails go so fast but other dogs pick up on it right away. So I looked today and sure enough. He was wagging his tail on the left. You could really see it. I finally got him to actually take a treat and not just drop it on the ground. He held it in his mouth and walked a few steps away growling the whole time. One other thing that is weird is that when I go on Monday he will be just awful again. Then as I show up Tuesday thru Friday he will get a little better. And then on Monday we have to start all over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 How much time did the owner spend with you and him together? Would they maybe be able to give you some input into super high value treats? Maybe while they are there, do some walking on lead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 As I was reading through this thread, I was thinking "What about really high value treats? Roast beef, etc." Would he drop the treat then? Then I saw that G. Festerling suggested the same. If he drops/ignores a meat treat, I would say he is way over threshold. It would be hard to do any type of work/training when he is in that state of mind. Hopefully, the meat treats will make his little brain start to think about who is giving him these great treats. The other ideas about behavior mod sound good, but I understand that it is not your job to train him - unless the owner may want to give you more $ to help train her dog. Jovi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekah Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 To echo what others have said, pairing food with your presence is a good idea. However, don't expect any drastic changes. Classical conditioning is a slow process, especially when fear has been reinforced for a prolonged period of time. Expect the change to take weeks if not months, and without further training to address the issue I wouldn't be surprised if there's always a degree of uproar when you first arise. Furthermore, receiving food offered from your hands may be too stressful for the dog and as a result may work against you. Drop or toss food, ideally while not looking at him. It will put much less pressure on the dog and will hopefully result in a more dramatic change more quickly. Basically, if I were in your position I would want the dog to view me as a walking treat dispenser. Don't ask much, if anything from him, at least for the first while. Just supply a constant stream of tasty goodness in your wake. Right now the dog is not likely operant, which means that it's not likely able to think clearly. You need to appeal to the animal on a basic level, and that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted November 7, 2013 Report Share Posted November 7, 2013 Have the owner look into trying l-theanine with him. She can give it before she leaves and it might be enough to take the nervous edge off so something fairly normal works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Furthermore, receiving food offered from your hands may be too stressful for the dog and as a result may work against you. Drop or toss food, ideally while not looking at him. It will put much less pressure on the dog and will hopefully result in a more dramatic change more quickly. Yes, and I would even go so far as to suggest that you throw the food away from you so the dog has to increase distance between the two of you to go get the treat. Basically, over time, the dog would learn that approaching you results in getting two reinforcers - food and distance between you. In time that may serve to make him want to approach you and then you would be able to interact with him more normally. As others have suggested, make sure the food is super high value. Sometimes that is enough to "break through" the threshold level and start to make progress. I would say that if that doesn't help (after a fair amount of trial), more structured work with thorough foundation in confidence and self control is in order, whether that is done by you or the owner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 I'm trying to figure out what kind of little, really good treat I could take him. There are 4 dogs up there so I have to have something for everybody. There are no crates. They all just are loose. One of the other dogs there is also a rescue pug/chihuahua cross and he has the opposite temperment. He is just as sweet and cute as can be. He gets mad at the other dog when he barks at me. Dogs are just so funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 I often throw treats around for four dogs and sometimes I want to separate one out from the bunch. Since the others run off to steal this dog's treat while he is barking at you, I would recommend throwing a small handful of something of lower value off to one side for the other three. While they are busy with it, you can toss the higher value treat for this one. Chunks of cheese fly well where you want them to and don't leave a mess on the floor. Chunks of boiled chicken can work well, too. You might even be able to get in two throws while the others are busy. It takes a little practice and it doesn't always work, but it can be done. I can often get in a rep or two of training with one dog while the other three are busy with the treats I have scattered for them!! No, I don't always train this way, but sometimes I just want to do one or two reps of a single behavior and it's easier to do this than to set everyone up for training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Monday after a three day weekend. Starting all over again. I gave him little treats and would come up and take them, run off with them, drop them and come back and bark at me. When I started into the bedroom he bit my knees. I did finally get him to take one little piece and go off with it. Growling all the way. I have to keep telling myself that it getting mad at a dog is completely stupid and a total waste of time. I really don't like this dog and that might be a lot of the trouble. So today is Tuesday and I go there again to get them out. I'm going to try the high value treats. Buy some baked chicken. I can go ahead and give the other dogs their cookies and they will all go away to eat them. Then I can work on Rocky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleLake Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 I can understand why you don't like him. Good luck. I hope the baked chicken works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 12, 2013 Report Share Posted November 12, 2013 Does he have a Kong? Could you stuff it with peanut butter? That might keep him busy for the duration of your visit and would gum up his mouth a bit. I know you would have to get it to him amid the other dogs, but it can be done. If he doesn't have a Kong, it might be worth your while to invest in one for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 I was there to feed him yesterday evening. I did get him to eat his dinner. Then he came after my knees. That's the first time I've able to get him to eat. I'm going to have lunch with his owner here soon. Hopefully if he sees me with her, in the house, and everything is OK then he will knock this stuff off.If not I'll just have start wearing kneepads and ankle guards. I do have a little kong at home but I would bet that the big dogs would just steal it from him. It's funny. They just stand and wait for him to drop his treat and then leave it on the floor. Then they snarf it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 I still wonder if maybe a different type of management is all there is to it to get him to accept you. Can his mom maybe have him crated when you have lunch with her at one point. With a line out the crate. Then when she opens the crate keep him from doing whatever he wants. Not force him close but keep him with mom. With you around. Then put him back in, repeat. During these times let you also feed him treats if he will take them. And then maybe try to transition to you opening the crate but maintaining control over the line. Let him go to his mom but maybe then slowly ask him to come for you. Work this step by step according to his response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 I don't think there are any crates there. But maybe she could just keep him on a line. He kind of reminds me of a tiny, little presaro canario. He kind of looks like one. I was talking to the owner about him yesterday. She reminded me that he is probably half chihuahua and that they are really one person dogs. And that seems to be true of the chihuahuas I take care of. I can get them to put up with me but they pretty much stay attached to one person. Do you know if pugs can be funny about stangers? The one's I've worked with have all been really sweet and very cudly but that doesn't mean that they all are. One time I stopped to talk to a woman walking her two little dogs. One was a tiny terrier of some sort and the other was a long haired chihuahua. The chihuahua ran up and bit my knees - no provocation whatsoever. I have to admit that I'm not overly fond of little tiny ankle biters. One of my friends has a little maltese that she thinks is just the answer to her prayers. I for the life of me can see no reason to have a dog like that. Well, you can pick them up easily and cart them around. And they don't eat much. What can you do with a dog named Kenneth for God's sake. I am taking care of another little one that is half dachshund and half some kind of little terrier. She is very sweet but just so hyper. She's like a little bouncing ball. Boing, boinb, boing. But I am really fond of bichons. Not too smart I don't think but they are so sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 What can you do with an ankle biter sized dog? Pretty much whatever you want....my Papillons do pretty much everything my Border Collie does (except controlling livestock): agility, frisbee, hikes, tracking. The best working obedience dog I ever saw was a tiny Yorkie. My Swiffer is the best working dog in her nosework class and shes 10 years old and weighs 7 lbs. Small dogs are easier to deal with in many ways, can be exercised in the house and thrill to be your one on one companion in the same way the Border Collies do. Once I got my 1st Papillon I knew I would always have them, they re just something unique and special in the same way my Border Collies were. Re; the problem dog, I think you have some good advise here. Hopefully you will see some results and I will be watching to see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 I suppose as long as this little monster gives you peace to do your job it is ok. He does not have to be in love with you and neither do you. But I sure would hate having to have a dog hang of my pant legs all the time. I own one of the most social chi's I suppose. Everyone is her friend. The more, the better. All the pugs I have been around (2 LOL) have been just as sweet as can be. So I am no help on them or on any crosses between the two. I have heard it said that the problem with so many little dogs is that the owners don't always hold them to the same standards as big dogs. As you said, a big dog with those habits would be out in a hurry! And by what I have seen myself....I have to agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highway61 Posted November 13, 2013 Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 I have heard it said that the problem with so many little dogs is that the owners don't always hold them to the same standards as big dogs. As you said, a big dog with those habits would be out in a hurry! And by what I have seen myself....I have to agree. My own mother is one of those owners She's an elderly widow who was given a 1 yr old Shitzuh<sp?>/Lhasa mix and it was a godsend for her. "Bella" is a usually sweet 20 pounder that launches herself into your lap, uninvited when you sit down with food. I used to ask Mom, "why is that?" but we all know the answer. Far from perfect but a great little companion for Mom who for some reason, expects everyone else to acknowledge how cute, precious, special and adorable she is. Bella's a lap dog and the worse part is she gets nasty and growls when sitting in anyone's lap when you walk by them. Which isn't all that bad, just frustrating knowing it will never get corrected. This even happened at my house last Christmas when my brother bent over to kiss Mom goodbye. All but my Mom were concerned about Bella's un-provoked and unnecessary show of aggression. Mom's response? "Oh, she never does that a my house" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted November 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2013 I think we did a little better today. I don't think he tried to bite me. He just ran up behind me and bumped the back of my legs. I am not engaging him in any way. I don't make eye contact. I say his name right along with everyone else when they are getting their cookies. Trouble is he will probably forget by tomorrow. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.