Can someone help with this behavior - not a border collie

[G. Festerling]

Maybe not! Maybe you not engaging him will be fine. Worth a try anyway!

[Tommy Coyote]

Hey, we did better today. He ran out with the other dogs. Came back in with them. Took his cookie and ran in the living room, lay down and ate it. I even walked back thru the house to be sure everything was OK and do my count to be sure everybody was present and accounted for. Then I left out the back door and he did not follow me.

 

That has to mean that he is getting less nervous about me being there. I'm still thinking about taking up so baked chicken tomorrow - since we seem to be on a roll here I would like to reinforce it.

 

Then we have the weekend where I don't come so that will be the next hurdle.

[Sekah]

It sounds like you're doing well, but please temper your expectations a bit. The approach you're taking is predominantly classical conditioning, and cc is known to be very effective, but it's also very slow and short-lived if you stop cc without replacing it with an operant behaviour. So, basically, keep up the good work but don't expect huge changes immediately.

[sandysfarm]

Hi

I've been reading your story with interest (and sympathy!) I'm a trainer in Ontario who works on a referral basis with little dogs. The referrals come from from a couple of vets who find examining their small patients "challenging", to say the least and suggest conditioning to their clients So I hope I'm not butting in...

It reads like you're doing fine so far by pairing yourself with food for the dog. Hard core classical conditioning, however, would have the dog already looking at you like you were the second coming :}...which you're about to be :

First:

you need to make a big-huge UNEXPECTED statement 3 or 4 times in a row - say,

Fri/Mon/Tues/Wed, like this:

unlock the door, make all your usual noises except language ones, silently walk straight over to a place on the floor, armed with a "visually full" plate of SERIOUS MEAT which you put on the

floor, then turn and wander right away and ignore him....Don't check, he'll eat if it's rare beef sliced fine When he's eaten, toss an extra piece of the same MEAT anywhere on the floor randomly - spacing a bunch of them out so that the last piece of meat gets tossed at him when you get

bored enough to leave. Obviously this is a set-up, so the other dogs are not around and you're not letting anybody out this trip - it's an event, you'll need the owners to pinch-hit or whatever...sorry, I know it's tricky - but it's worth it

**VIP is you don't talk to him, don't

say a word - you want to stay totally in control of the "shock value" of his new treatment because that "shock value" is what irrevocably changes his opinion of you, - you are now the meat goddess -

and no dog with a belly dislikes the meat godess.

 

From here on you treat him very casually, indifferently, even. His previous behaviour was

netting him attention, and attention is a

lower-level reinforcer...so you nix that. The only way you interact with him is to toss meat at him randomly. This random reinforcement is very potent in maintaining your goddess-status in his brain...works even if he's a little short on dog-IQ.

 

From what I'm reading, you're approaching some

behaviour change with treats

but not really effectively. You may even be accidentally rewarding his snarky behaviour with you by feeding it with a

treat that's lower in value than the situation warrants. Since it's likely his behaviour toward you is more fear-driven than aggression-based, you're

dealing with a reflexive i.e., primary drive. And you're trying to reduce it with another primary, food (hunger). So....produce more hunger, astonish him with crazy-better food and you've

got a decent shot at trumping one with the other.

 

My Rule, I always have the owners "forget" the meal closest to my arrival so that the dog is really hungry ...and remembers who bailed him out

So I see I've written a book - I hope at least it helps ..

[mum24dog]

you'll need the owners to pinch-hit or whatever...sorry, I know it's tricky - but it's worth it

 

 

I had no idea what that meant and had to google it to make sure it wasn't as bad as it sounds.

 

Do you not anticipate an extinction burst when the meat feast has to stop?

[sandysfarm]

Omg lol !

 

No, no extinction burst; but a superstitious interest in the OP, who, if she does it well, has just blown this dog's mind with her surprise generosity. Later, tossing meat to him casually without letting him figure out when it's coming, i.e. no pattern, is randomly reinforcing her position in his mind as the meat goddess. I maybe should have gone on to say that a totally unexpected freebie plate of warm meat for him very occasionally would essentially do the same but it's not necessary in the protocol....but I was embarassing myself at the length of my post

Extinction bursts have more to do with operant behaviour, that is, you get in the elevator, the door slides shut, you push the button...and nothing happens. So...you push it again,...nothing. Wth?? this button is damn well supposed to move the ***elevator! ...push, push, push........panicky now because I KNOW the button ALWAYS moves the elevator, push-push-push-push....(there's your extinction burst)...ok, defeat, I'm stuck...time to stop pushing and start looking for alternate help.

[mum24dog]

 

Extinction bursts have more to do with operant behaviour, that is, you get in the elevator, the door slides shut, you push the button...and nothing happens. So...you push it again,...nothing. Wth?? this button is damn well supposed to move the ***elevator! ...push, push, push........panicky now because I KNOW the button ALWAYS moves the elevator, push-push-push-push....(there's your extinction burst)...ok, defeat, I'm stuck...time to stop pushing and start looking for alternate help.

 

Behaviour modification is rarely 100% operant or classical though. This case would be classical conditioning in that the aim is to change the dog's perception of the OP, operant in the sense of good behaviour being rewarded. I'm guessing that you wouldn't advocate presenting the meat at a point when the dog was behaving badly - or would you?

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, it seems to me that you will have built up an expectation in the dog's mind that meat will be forthcoming from that person. When that expectation is not met then frustration will build up.

 

In normal situations random reinforcement is useful to sustain a desired behaviour but in this particular case as the OP only sees the dog occasionally it may not be a practical plan.

[sandysfarm]

 

Behaviour modification is rarely 100% operant or classical though. This case would be classical conditioning in that the aim is to change the dog's perception of the OP, operant in the sense of good behaviour being rewarded. I'm guessing that you wouldn't advocate presenting the meat at a point when the dog was behaving badly - or would you?

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, it seems to me that you will have built up an expectation in the dog's mind that meat will be forthcoming from that person. When that expectation is not met then frustration will build up.

 

In normal situations random reinforcement is useful to sustain a desired behaviour but in this particular case as the OP only sees the dog occasionally it may not be a practical plan.

 

 

 

 

I would be chucking nice bits of stuff in the direction of that dog occasionally for the whole time I was dealing with him without looking at him or talking to him, the little brat

I see what you're driving at but me, I'm treating the whole thing as 'not-operant' I'm not rewarding for decent behaviour, I don't really care what he's up to - that's the no-attention' part. I'm just reinforcing in his brain that, when I'm around, food may or may not happen...dogs are pretty superstitious so I say he's more interested in wondering what I'm up to than he is in cruising my knees....

[sandysfarm]

I would add that, once I felt we were over the "I hate you" hump, I might grab a clicker, charge it as a separate activity, and then capture/click/treat something - he could teach himself a tiny trick for instance, or ...I might click his staying at a certain distance from me .