Come when called

[Jescano]

I don't know what is wrong with this puppy but it's been 6 weeks an he's worse at his recall than when he was younger... He's 15 weeks now(so he's still not that old)

 

I feel like I've been doing everything right. Running away from him, making coming the most exciting thing ever, lots of treats(for outside I've been using high value treats dehydrated meats/liver and cooked chicken) and praise and me acting very excited and happy and having a long line on him(I am a little bit confused though... by "reeling" them in are you actually supposed to "pull" them to you even if they're "fighting" it(not really fighting it just not coming) I do put a harness on him because I don't want to be pulling on his neck). One thing I've tried a couple times is having a tug toy but he's kinda ruined the one we had(that seemed to sorta work better) we are getting more toys in the mail tomorrow(I ordered a whole bunch of new ones got a couple tugs) So I'll find out if toys are the key. When we play fetch with the frisbee he comes most of the way back then veers off once he's about 10-15 feet away. I've tried "ah-ah, come here" then running away from him, sometimes he'll come to me and sometimes he won't.

 

At some point do you just go "Well, you're not coming so outside time is over" Would he understand that not coming is why fun time is over?

 

And he STILL doesn't "know" his name. I've tried different name games. Calling his name and then treating if/when he looks at me(but he rarely does)

 

He's amazing at stupid pet tricks. He's got sit, down, stay, roll over, roll the other way, spin(clockwise), twirl(counterclockwise), speak, whisper, left paw, right paw. Even outside with distractions he'll perform those tricks 70 percent of the time.

 

Sometimes I just want to pick him up and shake him. I know he's smart. He's really smart.

 

My parents are coming to visit in a few days and they're bringing my poodle with the best recall ever... maybe it'll help to see another dog come when called? I can literally call this dog off anything. She could be hundreds of yards away and a single whistle will have her sprinting towards me and jumping into my arms(when I want her to)

 

Is this just a puppy thing where everything outside just became more interesting than me? when he was 9 weeks he loved just following me around. He's a big boy now and doesn't need mom ?

 

ETA: I don't think I have every chased him as I don't want him to learn that running away from me is fun. But we do play a lot of him chasing me which he loves doing if he's not distracted and usually I can get him to do it. But since it snowed it is a lot harder to get him to not just want to bounce around and stick his face in it.

[medic09]

Have you got a hallway in the house you can use? If you reinforce 'come' and 'fetch' there, he won't be able to veer off much at all.

 

I'll let others address the normal 'growth stage amnesia' that so many puppies get (much like human children and adolescents testing the boundaries).

 

Your most important tool is patience, along with lots of love, consistent demands, and an awareness of the messages you are conveying. Don't be afraid to go 'backwards' in training to some puppy basics if need be.

[Liz P]

Yup. Reel him in like a fish. Come means come, whether you want to or not. Once he is at your feet, ask him to obey a few commands before giving him freedom again. He must earn his freedom and all privileges.

 

Every time you give a command and he gets away with not obeying, he learns that obeying is optional. Don't give a command unless you are willing and able to enforce it.

 

 

long line on him(I am a little bit confused though... by "reeling" them in are you actually supposed to "pull" them to you even if they're "fighting" it(not really fighting it just not coming)

[Gloria Atwater]

Yup x 2. Reel him in like a fish and make him pause and give you his attention.

I do have one question, though ... How often are you doing these recall and name-calling exercises? If you're pounding the heck out of these training sessions and calling him over and over, you might accidentally boring him to death.

Do it once, do it twice, leave him alone and let him go do something fun. Come back to it a while later, do it once, do it twice, leave it alone. Some dogs absolutely can't take being drilled, so take a look and see if you, in your growing desperation, might accidentally be doing it too much. If you call a dog and call his name umpty times a day, of course he's going to tune you out. A human child does the same thing.

Be patient, Be sparing. Don't over do it. Too much training is stress and pressure. What you see as defiance may be him trying to deflect the pressure of you just trying too hard.

That might not be it, but it's a thought. Perhaps you just need to relax and do a little less. Best of luck!

~ Gloria

P.S.
Just realized this was the Obedience and Agility page. Oops. Hope I haven't butted in.

[Jescano]

Have you got a hallway in the house you can use? If you reinforce 'come' and 'fetch' there, he won't be able to veer off much at all.

I think the problem might be the frisbee. He plays fetch fine in the house and comes back to me 80% of the time outside if we play with a ball. I think maybe the frisbee will just have to go bye bye until we figure out a more reliable recall...

 

Come we do still need to work on in the house though. A "light" not so serious "come" he'll ignore half the time, but if I say it in a stern voice he comes about 90% of the time. I don't know why he doesn't just listen to the "nice" one.

 

Today during his dinner I scattered it on the floor and while he was eating I would occasionally call him to me - I had liver treats - and he actually came every time. I only did it about 3 times over about 10 minutes.

 

Then we played outside for a while. Instead of using a toy, because I knew I would just get frustrated with him not bringing it back, we played with snowballs. I would throw it 30 feet in one direction he'd chase it down I'd make another and throw it in the other direction. And occasionally as he was chasing I would hide and he would come find me and we would play chase(chase me). Avoided trying to call him to me unless he was already on his way.

 

Every time you give a command and he gets away with not obeying, he learns that obeying is optional. Don't give a command unless you are willing and able to enforce it.

You mean if I say "sit" and he doesn't sit I should physically put him in the position, or "down", etc?

 

I do... I just want to make sure that's what you mean.

 

 

How often are you doing these recall and name-calling exercises?

Not very often, way less often than practicing tricks..... I actually thought the problem was me not practicing enough. To be honest we haven't worked on it too much in the house(mostly outside) and that is probably the problem now that I think about it. Too many distractions in the house. I can't really expect him to have a good recall outside if he doesn't have one inside.

 

That might not be it, but it's a thought. Perhaps you just need to relax and do a little less. Best of luck!

I think the past couple days we have been playing less and training more :-/ Only because he's destroyed most of his toys. We have a bunch of new ones coming tomorrow though! So we'll try playing more and training less again. I really think when he's in fetch/frisbee mode he'll respond better to a tug toy than treats

 

I have to keep reminding myself that he is still just a puppy, and quite a smart one at that.

[mum24dog]

You mean if I say "sit" and he doesn't sit I should physically put him in the position, or "down", etc?

 

Certainly don't waste your breath on commands that are going to be ignored but I would take a different tack. Don't give your dog a command unless you are 99% certain that it will obey. If you have to force it to do something you have not made it clear what you want and you have set your dog up for failure. When training I almost never enforce a command because I rarely need to.

 

This is where clicker training comes into its own. By clearly marking and rewarding what you want the dog to do you will get repeated offers of the desired behaviour before even introducing the cue/command you are going to use. When you would lay money on the next thing the dog will do is what you want only then introduce the cue and you will create a strong association in the dog's mind that cue is automatically followed by the desired behaviour.

 

And it is so quick. I don't think it has ever taken more than 5mins in total to put something like a sit on reliable cue.

 

Plenty of info on line as to how to go about it but you can't beat a good clicker class where it can be demonstrated.

[Jescano]

Certainly don't waste your breath on commands that are going to be ignored but I would take a different tack. Don't give your dog a command unless you are 99% certain that it will obey. If you have to force it to do something you have not made it clear what you want and you have set your dog up for failure. When training I almost never enforce a command because I rarely need to.

99% of the time indoors he'll perform the commands I tell him, except "come" unless it's a "stay+come"(that's 99%)

 

outside he'll sit, down, paw, stay+come and roll over 99% of the time but the other stupid pet tricks 70%

 

He definitely knows what I want him to do.

 

I wish there was a good puppy class(or any sort of training really) around here, but there's not. When we go back home(not for another 6-7 months. He'll be 9-10 months) we will definitely be taking classes though and starting foundation agility training and hopefully starting on sheep.

[Oko]

He may understand what you want him to do with no distractions, but once you add being in a different environment with distractions, hey may not understand that come still means you must come. Coupled with the fact that yes, this is the exact age he will stop being a baby puppy and notice all the exciting things around him!

 

So back to basics, lots of rewarding and practice in low distraction environments, broken up into tiny sessions. If you can get someone to play recall back and forth with you, my pup finds that much more fun than just me. Also, restrained recalls where you put the puppy on one side of a pole, and have you and the leash the puppy is on, on the other side of the pole like a semi circle, amp up puppy til he's pulling to chase you, and then drop the leash. Basically I'd try to make recalls more fun and exciting.

 

As for the name, have you ever played the game where you stand behind him, throw a treat out in front of him, and after he eats it as he turns back to you say his name, and then reward out of the hand and repeat?

[Jescano]

As for the name, have you ever played the game where you stand behind him, throw a treat out in front of him, and after he eats it as he turns back to you say his name, and then reward out of the hand and repeat?

Yes, I feed him a lot of his meals like this, or at least a portion of each meal. With some tastier treats with me as well as kibble. But I don't say his name each time he comes back, should I?

 

Also, restrained recalls where you put the puppy on one side of a pole, and have you and the leash the puppy is on, on the other side of the pole like a semi circle, amp up puppy til he's pulling to chase you, and then drop the leash. Basically I'd try to make recalls more fun and exciting.

I don't have another person but I've never thought of actually using a pole like that before, that's a great idea.

 

 

exact age he will stop being a baby puppy and notice all the exciting things around him!

my little boy growing up what happened to the puppy that didn't want to be anywhere but under my feet

[Shetlander]

my little boy growing up what happened to the puppy that didn't want to be anywhere but under my feet

 

 

 

I would say those days are over and your pup is showing great confidence and a sense of adventure. He is becoming his own dog. Yay for him -- and you! Puppies are cute and all, but IMHO a grown dog who has partnered with you can't be beat.

 

Quinn was a real challenge for me at your pup’s age. Very independent, very busy, very naughty and very not impressed with me. One thing I do with 99% of training is try to make it very fun and rewarding. I try to take the approach that all training is tricks whether it is roll over, stay, or a formal retrieve. My dogs all love to train/play with me, which is what I want to see. I highly recommend clicker training. It works great for most dogs and I find it very helpful for independent, not that interested in pleasing dogs. The other thing I like about clicker training is the approach is more about how to communicate what you want to your dog rather than how to "make" him do what you want. I know I found that really helpful with my extremely opinionated Lhasa and indpendent Quinn.

 

That said, I find it really irritating when my dog doesn’t come when called. At your fellow’s age, I would be doing lots of recalls throughout the day, but they would be rewarded with small treats, his meal or a game (tug, fetch) and I’d be careful not to fall into a habit of mainly using the recall to “end the fun” -- stop the game, go inside, leave the fun park, etc. So lots of recalls, celebrate and send him on his way to more mischief.

 

When I have puppies, I usually have treats either on my person or close at hand so I can reward behaviors I like or have impromptu “sessions” of a few reps or clicker training. And I try to prevent behaviors I don’t like. So there was a period of Quinn’s puppyhood where he was dragging a long line behind him in the yard and I could step on the leash to stop him taking off or enforce “come” if I called and he ignored me. I do agree with not calling a dog unless you are pretty sure they will obey, but sometimes I misjudged with Quinn in his coyote pup stage .

 

Some dogs are just much harder to get a good recall on than others. All my dogs have had fabulous recalls through lots of puppy rewarding, some basic obedience and just growing up with other dogs who have fabulous recalls. And then there’s Quinn, my brainy boy. I have done more training, more going back to basics, more reps than any of my other dogs and his recall is only decent. Reliable but not 100% reliable and I can’t call him off a squirrel the way I could my other dogs. So at 8 ½ he still does periodic refresher training (which might be a few reps just to remind him this is important to me) and I manage him slightly differently than my other, really reliable recalling dogs.

 

In the meantime, your pup is still a baby you have only known for 6 weeks and it is way too early to think he won’t end up with a fantastic recall. Please, don’t compare him to a grown, trained poodle. I found Quinn amazingly distractible at your pup’s age, despite all his keen intelligence. And I’ve said it before, at about 6 months old, something clicked for him and I became very important in his world. From that point, he went from being my worst puppy ever to the very best. Every dog is different and that is part of the adventure. You’ll get to the wonderful companion you want but the tiny pup clinging to your feet is gone. So have fun as you watch his personality unfold, keep up the training, enjoy the ride and take lots of photos!

[Jescano]

I would say those days are over and your pup is showing great confidence and a sense of adventure. He is becoming his own dog. Yay for him -- and you! Puppies are cute and all, but IMHO a grown dog who has partnered with you can't be beat.

Oh believe me I can not WAIT until he is a dog and no longer an evil land shark that doesn't come. the only part I miss about him being younger is I just knew he was under my feet.

 

I do use a clicker. But I also use luring for certain tricks.

 

I’d be careful not to fall into a habit of mainly using the recall to “end the fun” -- stop the game, go inside, leave the fun park, etc. So lots of recalls, celebrate and send him on his way to more mischief.

We never end the fun when I say come. When he comes when called or when he just checks in we throw a little party then I let him go again. I also practice going up to him and just giving him treats or playing so that he doesn't think me going to him means fun is over and he won't run away when I approach him.

 

When I have puppies, I usually have treats either on my person or close at hand so I can reward behaviors I like or have impromptu “sessions” of a few reps or clicker training.

I almost always have the treat bag on me... even without the dog with me :-/ I probably look like the crazy person walking around vons with a dog treat bag on my waist. I just forget...

 

In the meantime, your pup is still a baby you have only known for 6 weeks and it is way too early to think he won’t end up with a fantastic recall.

I know, I just feel like I see all these videos and read about all these puppies with great recalls and I'm sitting here wondering whats wrong with my dog or my training.

 

Please, don’t compare him to a grown, trained poodle

The only thing she's better at is her recall. The tricks they're already pretty even.... Maybe I'll just have to attach him to her I know I can't compare an 8 year old poodle to a 15 week puppy. I just hope we get to that point. Even a recall half as good would be great.

 

This morning has gone great so far, though. Didn't call him much when we were playing outside but he checked in and I would call him as he was already on his way towards me. I've asked him to to a lot less tricks but each i've asked for he's done.

[Shetlander]

Oh believe me I can not WAIT until he is a dog and no longer an evil land shark that doesn't come. the only part I miss about him being younger is I just knew he was under my feet.

 

Well, at least you have that memory which is more than Quinn ever gave me.

 

I do use a clicker. But I also use luring for certain tricks.

 

Oh, I am big into luring. I don't have the patience to completely shape the behaviors I want. I fade the lure as quickly as possible once they seem to have the idea of what I am looking for.

 

 

I know, I just feel like I see all these videos and read about all these puppies with great recalls and I'm sitting here wondering whats wrong with my dog or my training.

 

Without seeing you and your pup, I would venture to say probably nothing is wrong. He is just who he is and you are working on getting the recall you want. Every puppy is different and I am of the belief that most of us become better trainers with each dog. We learn from each one, adding to our tool chest and sneaky tricks.

This morning has gone great so far, though. Didn't call him much when we were playing outside but he checked in and I would call him as he was already on his way towards me. I've asked him to to a lot less tricks but each i've asked for he's done.

 

Sounds great! A big trick with Quinn was finding the routine and schedule that worked for both of us. Giving him that structure was extremely helpful, even before he decided I worth more than just food, games and rides to fun places.

[Oko]

If you're trying to get him to learn his name, then yes, I would say his name every time he turns back to look at you, which will reinforce hear my name = find the face and check in.

 

Feist was super cute when she came home at seven weeks and just wanted to sit on my foot. But as she gets bigger we can do so much more and I feel less like a babysitter and more like a partner. I love to watch her just explore on her own, which she wouldn't have done 3 weeks ago. There are trade offs.

[mum24dog]

Oh, I am big into luring. I don't have the patience to completely shape the behaviors I want. I fade the lure as quickly as possible once they seem to have the idea of what I am looking for.

I find it's a case of more haste less speed with luring. You may get something approximating the end behaviour quicker with luring than with capturing or shaping but once the penny drops the finished behaviour can come quicker and more reliably in the long run.

 

As an example - I was struggling to get one of mine to lie down. Luring would sort of work but he really wasn't getting it. I had resorted to luring because he wouldn't lie down for me to capture it, which is the way I usually teach down or sit. I took one of the other dogs for a short walk to think about it and came back to find that my young daughter had captured a down and put it on cue. She had noticed that he jumped on the couch and lay down so she clicked for that and they were off.

[Shetlander]

I find it's a case of more haste less speed with luring. You may get something approximating the end behaviour quicker with luring than with capturing or shaping but once the penny drops the finished behaviour can come quicker and more reliably in the long run.

 

 

That is really interesting. I haven't run into that myself. I do switch fairly quickly to shaping most the time, though with things like sit and down, I teach entirely thru lures. I just don't have the patience sometimes waiting for that penny to drop. My Sheltie who was a crossover to clicker and also by nature was never much into offering behaviors is probably how I became such a fan of early luring. The Lhasa will offer behaviors in such a rapid fire manic way, that I sometimes use lures to focus his circus dog performance.

[Chianne]

Build value to coming. Add a RZ (Reinforcement zone), at your side. When your dog is at your right side, sitting hold a treat in your left hand, transfer to right hand, touch your hip with the hand with treat in then treat. Over and over. Build value to being with you and he will choose you over the big wide world.

[Shetlander]

Build value to being with you and he will choose you over the big wide world.

 

Very true. The reinforcement zone, as I am understanding it, would have worked great for my Shelties and Lhasas, who were all highly motivated by food. Back when Quinn was young, there were times when food meant very little to him and lots of those times were when he was running around, playing or otherwise having active fun which is often when I’d want him to come. As I said previously, I put in a lot of work over the years with a variety of methods on his recall. Probably what did the most to strengthen it was whenever he did a recall at the beach, I’d throw his toy into the water for him. Hundreds and hundreds of reps on our weekly walks resulting in a very high value reward (toy + water + retrieve!) got a really nice recall on him.

[Jescano]

The past two days I have seen lots of changes. He loves snow. When he comes to me I make little snowballs and I throw them to him to catch he LOVES it. And he loves chasing snowballs. Since it's snow there's no stress about him bringing it back.

 

Yesterday we had a doggy play date with blu the red heeler(10 months) and Mika, a little 5 month old borderjack(that's what the owner thinks), and they played really well all together I tossed the frisbee for them all to chase, blu and mika got distracted playing with each other and jinx brought it right back to me. Threw it a couple more times and he would go a few feet off but brought it all the way when asked. Then sent him off to play with the dogs because I didn't want him to "mess up." He would check in and we would throw little snowball parties.

 

Then after Mika left, we went off roading about 2 miles into the middle of nowhere with blu and his owner, letting the dogs run around more. I had blu's owner hold jinx while I hid and I think that made Jinx realize he actually does like me and that I'm important. Or I would throw something and as he was chasing it I would hide. He would come find me. He was a tired puppy that day.

 

And today while playing outside, in the "yard"(unfenced dirt lot behind house) he would check in and he came probably 70% of the time when called and if I just started reeling him in he would come instead of having to reel him in all the way. At the park I just waited for him to come on his own to throw another snowball for him and he picked up pretty quick that after he chases one down he comes to me to get another one throw for him to chase or catch.

 

He's such a good boy. I do worry about him a lot and think I'm not raising him right(he's my first puppy that's all MINE, not a "family" dog.) But I realize I keep comparing him to adult dogs. I look at him next to the ten month old heeler and he's already at the same level obedience wise(besides his recall, but he does know more "tricks") and he's WAY farther along than the 5 month border jack(who can't even down) or the 4 1/2 border collie that we met last week. He'll sit and down even with the other dogs around him 95% of the time if I have his attention(I don't bother if he's engaged with the other dogs.)

 

He also has a very solid "wait" before doors, before coming out of his crate, while I put my shoes on, etc. I get a very hard stare though when I put him in a wait lol. Lots of concentration waiting for that "ok"

[GentleLake]

And today while playing outside, in the "yard"(unfenced dirt lot behind house) he would check in and he came probably 70% of the time when called and if I just started reeling him in he would come instead of having to reel him in all the way.

 

This, IMO, is an indication that he really hadn't learned yet what "Come!" means . . . . at least not what you wanted "come" to mean, which is "come to me each and every time no matter what else is going on." He still hasn't quite learned it, but it sounds like he's picking it up pretty quickly.

 

I think it's a pretty common error for people to believe that their dogs "know" what a cue means when they really don't. Dogs don't always (or perhaps even often) generalize very well, so they may understand "sit" perfectly when it's practiced in one specific location over and over, but be clueless that the sound of the word "sit" means "park your butt now" when they hear it somewhere else. That's why you have to practice cues in different places at different times with different distractions over and over again.

 

Coming when called is no different . . . except perhaps that it will tend to happen in (to them) more random locations with many, many more interesting distractions to keep them from wanting to comply. That's why being able to enforce it each and every time (and making it such a rewarding thing for him to do) is so important.

 

Sounds like your little guy's doing great for his age!

[Jescano]

This, IMO, is an indication that he really hadn't learned yet what "Come!" means . . . . at least not what you wanted "come" to mean, which is "come to me each and every time no matter what else is going on." He still hasn't quite learned it, but it sounds like he's picking it up pretty quickly.

He definitely doesn't "know" come yet. But he is doing way better at it than he was just a couple days ago. That's just the learning process right? Am I not doing it right? I don't usually say come if I think he is going to ignore it, but sometimes I misjudge it. When that happens after I said it I just reel him in, I don't say it anymore. So he gets one "come," and if he's not coming he gets reeled in, right?

 

I will not be one of those people yelling "come! come! come!" at their dog. But that's why he only gets 60 feet of freedom.

 

Would it be better to, if I know he won't come, reel him in a bit so that he starts coming towards me then when he's already on his way, say "come."

 

I think it's a pretty common error for people to believe that their dogs "know" what a cue means when they really don't. Dogs don't always (or perhaps even often) generalize very well, so they may understand "sit" perfectly when it's practiced in one specific location over and over, but be clueless that the sound of the word "sit" means "park your butt now" when they hear it somewhere else. That's why you have to practice cues in different places at different times with different distractions over and over again.

We definitely practice important(sit, down, stay) commands everywhere. He "knows" "sit" means your butt is on the ground and knows "down" means drop. But we practice those before getting anything thrown for him he'll even sit or down from a distance. It's not as import to me that he rolls over or speaks everywhere, though I'm sure we'll get there.

 

16 weeks old today and we are definitely starting to understand each other better.

[Jescano]

Would it be easier to teach him "come" means come if we "started" with "sit/down+stay+come" when we do it like that he does it fine, but I think it's because he's already paying attention to me...

[Shetlander]

Would it be easier to teach him "come" means come if we "started" with "sit/down+stay+come" when we do it like that he does it fine, but I think it's because he's already paying attention to me...

 

As one of my obedience instructors would say, before you can teach a dog anything, you need to have his attention. So yes, doing more formal recalls is a good way to begin and then start adding variables like length away from the dog, different locations, different levels of distraction, etc. In addition, I would do lots and lots of reps, such as having the dog work for one meal a day giving bites of the meal as a reward. And also lots of random recalls, always being sure to reward.

 

I really think habit is one of the most important things to instill in a dog when it comes to commands. The dog is simply used to obeying and doesn’t really think about it. That often comes with repetition, consistency in your response (both to obeying and not obeying) and practicing the command in a variety of conditions and settings.