The vets opinion

[GentleLake]

Yes, you did. You quoted, "I don't feed raw...I'm a vegetarian." You put "..." where she said that she didn't like to handle raw meat or be concerned about the germs in her kitchen. You equated not feeding raw directly with being vegetarian, which is not what she said - she said that she didn't feed raw, didn't like to handle raw meat, didn't like the germ aspect, and was a vegetarian. She never said anything about not wanting to feed her dogs a vegetarian diet, and then turn around and feed them meat in a kibble form.

 

Talk about picking nits.

 

My point, which is being misconstrued, is that I don't buy the whole I-don't-fed-raw-because-I'm-vegetarian argument. Tommy Coyote gave three reasons whey she chooses not to feed raw. I said, indirectly (perhaps that's the problem here?) that the first two reasons are understandable, but that the third reason, which was her being vegetarian, to me is not.

 

I was not singling out Tommy Coyote.

 

I acknowledged that there are other reasons for not feedng raw that I can understand (whether I agree with them or not, but that's a different discussion, which is why I didn't address it at the time).

 

I'm not advocating that everyone here or anywhere else start feeding raw. I said I don't really care what anyone else chooses to feed. IOW, I said "so what" to her choice.

 

I don't understand what you're arguing about, but I'm done.

[Sue R]

That makes two of us.

 

Apologies to the OP for the digression.

[GentleLake]

Gentle Lake: I didn't mean anything by saying I'm a vegetarian except that I just don't like keeping raw meat around. And I don't like to work with it.

 

 

I know a lot of vegetarians don't like handling raw meat. I really wasn't trying to start an argument, just saying that I don't understand the reasoning behind being vegetarian as a reason not to feed raw. Now, if the reason you're vegetarian is because you don't like handling raw meat, then I can understand where you're coming from, but that reasoning goes in the other direction.

 

 

 

I would be afraid to feed my dogs raw anyway. I just don't know enough about dog nutrition to be comfortable feeding raw that I fixed up myself.

 

And yet you're not afraid to feed yourself? (Maybe I shouldn't make assumptions! LOL)

 

Srsly, though, feeding dogs isn't rocket science, any more than feeding ourselves is. Whatever marketing person who came up w/ that one for the pet food manufacturers should have been given a really big bonus! Using that logic, the only things we should be feeding ourselves and our kids would be prepackaged, nutritionally complete human kibble-in-a-bag or cans and nothing else. Ever.

 

Oh, wait. Lots of folks are practically there! The difference is that health officals and doctors aren't telling us we shouldn't be eating better quality foods, including fresh foods. In fact, they're telling us just the opposite. Yet the majority of vets (coming around to the original topic here) aren't promoting better nutrition through whole, fresh foods, and many of them are telling us we aren't capable of feeding our dogs properly w/out the pet food manufacturers. That just seems skewed to me.

 

 

We had a thread here not too long ago about how dogs have developed about 9 specialized genes (well you get what I mean) for digesting carbohydrates. Wolves don't have those genes. Dogs don't need to be on a wolf diet.

 

 

 

I know that dogs aren't exactly like their progenitors any more. And I know that they've developed a different skull structure and musculature from the change in their diets as they evolved.

 

I'm not one of those radical raw feeders who guards against any form of starch or vegetable food passing through my dogs' mouths. There are some raw feeding fanatics whose reasoning is really awful and doesn't make a whole lot of sense at all (like "dogs are wolves so must be fed like wolves".)

 

Nor am I one who feels I have to convert every kibble feeding dog owner to convert to raw. Feed whatever you're comfortable with. I've read enough of your posts that I know you're well informed and make good choices for your dogs.

 

I'd be very interested in seeing the info on the specialized genes. I'll try a key word search, though it may be difficult to find. Do you happen to remember anything about the thread that may help me locate it?

 

So, are we good?

 

roxanne

[Tommy Coyote]

Yea. We're good. I didn't know we were arguing. I was just discussing. We have gone round and round and round on this board about feeding raw. Some people here are really adament about it. Some of us aren't. I've really learned a lot about dog nutrition from the people here. Some people are scientists and researchers, some are vets. And some people just have had border collies for years and years and they know a bunch of stuff, too. And there are lots of people here who are wonderful dog trainers and they have a ton of knowledge in dealing with all kinds of behavior problems.

 

I learn something new every day. We don't all agree with each other and that keeps things interesting.

 

We were having an "argy-bargy." That's a spirited discussion or argument.

[Tommy Coyote]

I found one article on starchy diets transforming wolves to dogs. Now if I can just get the link to work - as I am a computer idiot.

 

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/347706/description/Starchy_diet_may_have_transformed_wolves_to_dogs

[Tommy Coyote]

Wow. It worked. And it's a pretty interesting article.

[juliepoudrier]

And yet you're not afraid to feed yourself? (Maybe I shouldn't make assumptions! LOL)

Well, just look at many of us. Clearly we don't know (or perhaps care) about good nutrition! If we (as a generalized group of humans, not the folks in this discussion specifically) cared more about nutrition there probably wouldn't be so many people with health issues that might be controlled or prevented through diet....

 

FWIW, I eat some meat, but mainly only what I grow or what is harvested locally, so I don't have any intrinsic dislike of raw meat, but I still don't like handling it. And for some meats, the smell just bothers me too. But when I handle meat, I can't help but think about the conditions under which much of it is raised in this country and that's a real turn off. But I do want my dogs to get some raw for the benefits that chewing RMBs gives them, so if I don't have anything I raised on hand, I do get stuff from the store. But that just adds to the ick factor for me.

 

J.

[Gloria Atwater]

I'm probably going to ask a dumb question here but my only experience of US vets is via TV and shows such as Emergency Vets where the vets are treated with (to me) excessive deference by the clients and called "Doctor".

 

I know there are vets here who hide behind a cloak of professional authority but most people I know are on first name terms with their vet.

 

Is it normal to call a vet "Doctor" where you are? Do you feel it puts you at a disadvantage in your dealings with them if it is?

 

 

You know ... I have no idea what other people call their vets. I honestly don't.

 

However, I always just call my vets "doc." That's a holdover from my cowboy and mulepacker days, when any large animal vet was called "doc" by the cowboys. Very informal and country-ish.

 

I think my vet's staff call her "Doctor Burns," but as I said, I have my own language for my vet. And she's used to me being very active in my dogs' illnesses and treatments, so I think we have a respectful relationship. But I still call her "Doc."

 

~ Gloria

[MrSnappy]

When I refer or speak to my veterinarian, I address him as "Doctor." When he calls me, he identifies himself by his first name.

 

Maybe I respect him more than he respects himself ;-)

 

RDM

[KrisK]

Hm....maybe we're far more relaxed in N. Ontario..I call my vet by his first name...and did so with my previous vet as well...and I was always greeted as "Kris'....very interesting, indeed...

[alligande]

I have been thinking about the use of titles in America, not just for vets. I have lived here along time and I still find it strange that former ambassadors/directors/secretaries of state etc are referred to by their former title, in the UK if you no longer hold office the title is gone, from the prime minister down.

The US is a more formal country when it comes to address, college professors use Dr or Professor, all mine in England used their first name, in grad school I used titles. In certain parts of the country and especially among military family's kids are raised to address adults as sir / ma'am and living in town with a large navy presence being called ma'am still makes me feel like a grandmother, or realistically the only British ma'am is the queen. I don't think I have ever heard a British kid, use those terms, yes they start out with aunt/uncle mr/mrs but by the time they are teenagers or younger first names are normal.

[mum24dog]

I'll even ask 'so I read this online or someone told me this...' and I'll ask his opinion on it.

 

Me too, and sometimes I'll get the answer "I don't know. I'll find out."

 

I love an honest vet.

[KnottyClarence]

Medical services are performed on a patient. I as my dog's insurance company might decide where he gets these services, but the services are specifically medical, and living things getting medical services are patients. When I go into my vet's office, I have already chosen her/his type of medical advice, and she/he is going to administer that advice to the patient I brought in, all of us to the best of our knowledge. I know it's just semantics, but I get hung up on those, gaming/gambling, consumer/customer. How we use these words adjusts the playing field, back and forth.

[Gideon's girl]

My vet is a friend of mine so I call her by her first name when it's between us, but professionally I refer to her as Dr. Last Name. I definitely respect her more than she respects herself. She doesn't even know what a gem she is.

[Tommy Coyote]

I think all of the farmers around here - this is big time farm and cattle country - call the vet just Doc or Doc so and so.

 

I always call my vet Doctor Read. And when the vets call me they always identify themselves as Doctor so and so.

 

I kind of like it that way. Makes me feel like I am talking to someone with a whole lot more education than me. Gives me more confidence in them. Sometimes that confidence is misplaced but I usually catch on pretty quickly if a vet really isn't very good.

[mum24dog]

Medical services are performed on a patient. I as my dog's insurance company might decide where he gets these services, but the services are specifically medical, and living things getting medical services are patients. When I go into my vet's office, I have already chosen her/his type of medical advice, and she/he is going to administer that advice to the patient I brought in, all of us to the best of our knowledge. I know it's just semantics, but I get hung up on those, gaming/gambling, consumer/customer. How we use these words adjusts the playing field, back and forth.

 

As far as I am concerned, if I am paying the bill I am the customer and should be in the driving seat. I can always take my business elsewhere.

 

Paying a vet for a service is no different from paying an electrician. You pay them for knowledge that you don't have but you have a choice as to whether you follow the advice they give.

[Gideon's girl]

Paying a vet for a service is no different from paying an electrician. You pay them for knowledge that you don't have but you have a choice as to whether you follow the advice they give.

Exactly!! The problem is when you don't have enough of your own knowledge to recognize how much of what a vet says is opinion.

I always call my vet Doctor Read. And when the vets call me they always identify themselves as Doctor so and so.

 

I kind of like it that way. Makes me feel like I am talking to someone with a whole lot more education than me. Gives me more confidence in them. Sometimes that confidence is misplaced but I usually catch on pretty quickly if a vet really isn't very good.

Some of them use that formality, because they want you to believe they have more knowledge than they do. I find that the ones that are most comfortable with their level of expertise are usually not the ones demanding respect, but they get it anyway.

[mum24dog]

I find that the ones that are most comfortable with their level of expertise are usually not the ones demanding respect, but they get it anyway.

 

Me too.

[simba]

I can see why you'd want a certain amount of demanding respect, because I know people who will not trust someone who doesn't. Someone who uses long words and does a bit of patronising can seem a lot more experienced than the 'call me Joe', explain-everything type.

 

I don't like it myself, I don't understand it, but it suits others. And for anyone who is a skilled professional working with the general public, you'd want to make use of anything that would encourage people to respect your opinion.

 

Not for the experienced people, but so you win over the people who may otherwise do/use something not at all suited to the problem. "That plumber doesn't know what he's talking about, if I replace this with this other size of pipe it will work perfectly."

[alligande]

I have resurrected this old thread because now I am in the UK and MUCH older than when I lived here before I have learned something new about how people are addressed. When I took my dog to the vet, I was introduced to the vet by her first name and I was refered to as Mrs B..... At the dentist he was also introduced and called by his staff by his first name, and I was addressed as Mrs.... My debit card says Mrs... and on the phone they also ask for Mrs B, and for most people they have no idea of marital status it is just used as an honorific , which for someone who has lived in the states for years and never uses the title as I don't even use my husbands last name has been very unnerving, not to say making me feal ancient.

[mum24dog]

I have resurrected this old thread because now I am in the UK and MUCH older than when I lived here before I have learned something new about how people are addressed. When I took my dog to the vet, I was introduced to the vet by her first name and I was refered to as Mrs B..... At the dentist he was also introduced and called by his staff by his first name, and I was addressed as Mrs.... My debit card says Mrs... and on the phone they also ask for Mrs B, and for most people they have no idea of marital status it is just used as an honorific , which for someone who has lived in the states for years and never uses the title as I don't even use my husbands last name has been very unnerving, not to say making me feal ancient.

I feel old when called Mrs too, but then I am.

 

I think it's just a recognition that you are the client and they are the service provider trying to get / keep your business.

 

I find if I identify myself by Mrs when contacting them, that is how they address me and if I use my first name that's what I get.

[CMP]

I have had a chronic illness for over twenty years. The last specialist I saw had not been a doctor as long as I have had my illness and in response to a query about medication options, said, "You probably know as much about this as I do."

 

My grandfather could look at a dog, take a quick sniff of his breath and ears, and tell you a lot about his health. Vets respected his opinion and sometimes came for advice.

 

Point is, I think you respect the vet for what he has learned (which is certified by his graduation certificate) but need to have one that respects you for what you know and is willing to make you understand his opinions. No vet knows everything or is right all the time. Likewise no dog owner.