Seeking puppy in New England :)

[Oko]

Hi there everyone, (finally) ready to find a border collie.

Due to the litter I was expecting to get a puppy from being rather small, I'm back on the hunt for a puppy again. I'm hoping to find a litter recently born or about to be, I can't take a puppy earlier than late August. Obviously wanting a puppy out of working dogs. I'm not a working home. I'd be happy to travel anywhere in New England, and would be open to shipping but my preference would be to meet the dogs/people in person. I would be perfectly happy to wait a couple more months and can, but at this point I'd prefer to not have plans fall through, hence wanting a viable puppy to be available vs a planned breeding, but if what I want isn't available (pretty specific), I can wait just fine.

 

PMs of suggestions would be greatly appreciated if you have any!

 

Please do not suggest rescue, I'd like to buy my puppy from a breeder, and my current situation would be a no-go for a rescue.

 

 

Thanks in advance!

-Oko

[rlwzgd]

I'm new here and haven't seen you so I'm not sure who you are, but I feel compelled to open my mouth to exchange my feet. So, forgive me here, but you want a puppy out of a working line, but you aren't a working home? That's really unwise. I was just discussing this morning how people think they want a working dog, but they don't understand what they want. Your dog will need to run for 4-5 hours a day to avoid getting bored (and subsequently redecorating your house). To give you an idea, my 9 month old puppy runs with my older dog for 4 hours a day, plus does agility and he still gets bored at times. With shipping the dog, etc, I'm not sure you know what you're in for, or your motives might be out of true... Have you thought of a rescue... I'm not sure why any situation would preclude it. It would give you an established dog and you could find one that is known to be less active... Jmo

 

R

[gcv-border]

That's really unwise. I was just discussing this morning how people think they want a working dog, but they don't understand what they want. Your dog will need to run for 4-5 hours a day to avoid getting bored (and subsequently redecorating your house).

 

 

R

 

I think that you will find many members here who have dogs from working lines that will disagree about the need to run 4-5 hours per day.

 

I will let them chime in.

 

Jovi

[WildFlower]

I completely disagree with rlwzgd. I have 2 working bred border collies. They walk a minimum of 30 minutes a day. Some days we walk 90 minutes - some days they don't. I work full time and my dogs are at home alone that entire time. I don't own sheep (yet) and we only train on the weekends. No destruction. No crazy dogs. My dogs have adapted to my lifestyle just fine. And as a result of being well behaved dogs we get to travel to SDTs and other places.

 

If you exercise a 9 month old pup for 4 hours a day you will create an adult dog that needs that much exercise.

[PSmitty]

No dog NEEDS to run 4-5 hours a day. That's crazy. What needs to happen, is a dog needs to be taught that there's time for work, for play, and for settling. Do you think working dogs really work that many hours in the day? Nope, and you can be sure they learn to settle when they're not working. Same for those of us with non-working dogs, too.

 

I don't mean to snark at you personally, rlwzgd, but this is a common misconception that people are told when they express interest in a Border Collie. That you'll have to walk them 5 miles twice a day, just to have a dog that is bearable in the house. And it's just not true. Border Collies are active, smart and in tune with their people. Excercise them physically and mentally, make them an active part of your life, but you don't have to create little monsters who require excessive exercise to be pleasant companions.

 

Also, plenty of working breeders will sell pups to non-working people. If someone doesn't want a rescue and wants to support BCs being bred for the right reasons, where else are they supposed to go?

[Liz P]

Damn. I've got lazy working dogs! Who wants some useless couch potatoes?

[Maralynn]

My working bred dog is chilling in his kennel right now...

 

Soon we will go for a ride, play a little ball then he will chill again for 3-4 hours while I'm in class tonight...

 

He very rarely gets 4-5 hours of exercise in a day.

[rlwzgd]

Absolutely right, but you guys are working your dogs on the weekend. The way I read the op (which I'm absolutely free to be wrong about) was that they weren't playing/working... I didn't say he needed to run, just that when he does and he's happiest. I live in hick country and people get a working dog to tie it up to a tree and leave it there. There were lots if buzz words in the op that caught my attention. We've had lots of trouble with puppy mills, etc. For ex, they don't want a rescue because they don't want a home visit. They ship dogs bc they don't care about quality, looking for something specific without giving specifics can indicate breeding for color... I'm sure the op is fine, but something didn't smell right to me and I feel obliged to say something. And of course, I reserve my right to be wrong like I usually am!

[Laurae]

Just wondering, how long have you had border collies, rlwzgd?

[Alchemist]

The OP has been around for a while, and has made sensible posts. They've also attended at least one trial (IIRC) in hopes of getting to know the sheepdog community better. I concur with Paula: "If someone doesn't want a rescue and wants to support BCs being bred for the right reasons, where else are they supposed to go?"

 

Add my voice to those who believe that working-bred dogs don't NEED four hours of exercise each day (staring at the three-month-old "footwarmer" curled up asleep under my chair). I teach my dogs that they need to chill when it's convenient for me that they do so. Even when my (then) three-year-old working-bred dog had a shoulder injury that kept him on restricted activities for six months last year (with the first two months limited to one ten-minute leash walk per day), he accepted it with good grace and his typical impeccably good behavior. That being said, I've known a working-bred Border collie raised by folk who felt that the puppy needed to be entertained the whole time. The result was predictable: a mess. You can also convert the best dog in the world (and I daresay from any breed) into a head case by doing what rlwzgd describes - getting a dog and chaining it out to a tree. I don't think that's the situation here.

[Beach BCs]

I've always held the opinion that if you let them run 4-5 hours a day, you'll be building the endurance to just crave even more running/exercise. Three BCs at my house. One a 15 month old who would run all day if I let her. That's no good for any of us. Better to understand keeping the mind busy, that they like being included in what you're doing when that's possible. And working on that off switch. Life isn't always go go go.

[rlwzgd]

I had my first bc 17 years ago and have had mixes and purebreds since...

 

Like I said, I'm absolutely sure I'm wrong about the op, but I cant see post counts on mobile even if I click the name and I don't have a computer at the moment... Since I don't recognize the name (I've been reading the forum as a guest for 2 years or so) and there were a lot of things that the finding a breeder article recommended against, I said something. It's better to say something and be wrong and apologize than let a dog get tied to a tree (because I've had those rescues and it's not fair to the dog)... No?

 

Eta: i keep forgetting to sign my name to all the posts... Ugh.

 

Rebecca

[loggerboots]

rlwzgd, just a tip, you can click on a persons profile and see posts they've made in the past. It's a little stalker-ish, but at least you can get a sense for where the person is coming from. I actually see how you came to those suspicions based on just this post and if I were the OP, I'd probaly want to clarify those requirements to allay any suspicions, but as others have said, OP seems legit based on previous stuff they've written. Heck, they've made the effort to seek out and attend a trial, that says something.

 

To add to the chorus, my 20 month working bred girl gets 3-5 miles of walking and/trail running most days with some training sessions, and the rest of the time she just follows me from room to room and sleeps by my feet. She goes to bed when I do and wakes up just a wee bit earlier than I'd like She's not lazy, but she's no more demanding than the (sport bred) Golden Retriever I had in the past.

 

That's just one data point, though - I have met a couple nutso BC's that I wouldnt' want to have.

 

ETA: our posts cross, didn't see you were on mobile and couldn't see posts

[rlwzgd]

This is probably best in another post, but I trained search and rescue dogs with military dog handlers for 5 years and currently have agility dogs. I know nothing about herding. My first bc was from a working line and I didn't work dogs at the time. It was not fair to her and I regret putting her through that. She was bored out of her mind. I think a lot of people think, ooh I want a working dog that is smart and have no idea what they are getting into... Frankly it changed my life for the better, but I've also seen the dogs that don't have that benefit. So, yeah, the op definitely deserves the benefit of the doubt, but the way they said "I want a dog from a working line. But I don't work dogs" caught me.

 

Eta: our posts crossed... thanks for letting me know about the op! I can sleep soundly tonight! And so sorry for misunderstanding... I just saw a puppy mill thing again (Jeff co and Franklin are terrible) so I was clearly in the wrong frame of mind... And darn my phone for not showing me the posts... I used to be able to see them! And sorry for the lack of communication skills. My hubs is in field season so I'm home alone with our 10 month old and the dogs while writing my dissertation.

 

Rebecca

[PSmitty]

Well, I took Oko's comment that he/she "doesn't work dogs" to mean that she doesn't work them on sheep, not that she's not going to do *anything* with the dog. But, even if she never sees a sheep, we still want her to support working breeders, right?

 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't buy that dogs from working breeders are going to be bored or feel unfulfilled if they don't work stock. I know plenty of border collies, both from working breeders and not, that don't work sheep regularly (or at all). And I don't think the dogs even know what they're missing, if that makes sense. The dogs are happy sport dogs, or happy active family dogs.

[alligande]

Riwzgd, as you have been reading these boards for awhile I am sure you are aware that the basic philosophy of these boards is you should only get a border collie from a working border collie breeder or from rescue.

I also completely disagree about the need for excess exercise and from my experience at agility trials usually find the working bred dogs are much calmer and have much better off switch than their confirmation/sport bred cousins.

My own farm bred ( rescue ) collie is stretched at my feet hoping we might do something interesting because we have been pretty lame humans for a couple of days, but he is certainly not about to tear the house apart.

[rlwzgd]

Nope, I completely agree, support the working breeders... I think if you read back, you'll see that I couldn't find Oko's other posts and saw some red flags for a puppy mill thing, that turned out to be wrong... Apologies again.

 

I do disagree that 4 hours is excessive exercise - I'm a fairly uninteresting person myself so my dogs play with each other in the yard - which isn't terribly big. Yesterday he was at agility, so there was no where near 4 hours... Today it's hot, so they are happy hanging out inside. It's not a lot of time at once, they usually go out for 15/20 minutes and play with each other, only when they want to. Adding it all up, it's 4-5 hours... I bet if you added up the time your guy spends running, it's closer to that than you think... Morning outing for 30 minutes, evening stroll for 30 and a few play times and you're there.

[Laurae]

I asked how long you've had border collies because it seems to me that a lot of the advice you've given, here and in other threads, seems generally geared more to harder, less brainy breeds, for lack of a better term, and perhaps less suited for intelligent, sensitive border collies. If you run a dog for five hours a day every day, you will indeed create a dog who then requires five hours of exercise a day. If you stimulate their minds regularly, they will not need anything near that level of physical exercise. Now, I'm not saying border collies don't need to run--of course they do; they just don't need to run around mindlessly for five hours a day every day.

[rlwzgd]

And I'm not saying I run my bc for 5 hours every day, I'm saying he likes to run with my moms dog, and the total time adds up to 5 hours. So, maybe I've worked too long with less brainy breeds in some of the other stuff I do, but I also think a lot of what I say is taken the wrong way because I haven't posted before. You come from assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about and automatically view it through that filter. But none of this is helping Oko find him/her a dog and most of this is irrelevant towards that discussion. If you want to disagree with me, fine, but let's try to keep it on the dog for Oko...

[Laurae]

You were the one making assumptions that Oko was going to tie her dog to a tree...

[juliepoudrier]

So it needs to be kept on the dog for Oko now that folks are disagreeing with you? Am I understanding that right?

 

Nobody is taking what you say the wrong way because you haven't posted before; they're taking your words at face value. It just seems that many of the folks here disagree with at least some of what you have to say about border collies.

 

My dogs play with one another. I have sheep and chickens, but I also have 9 dogs. I certainly don't have work for all of them (so it's good some are retired, but they still like to feel useful too).

 

The only time my dogs are active for hours (be it in small or big chunks) is when I am hired to set sheep for trials. I have two dogs I use for that task, so when we're setting sheep, they get used for hours at a time. The rest, not so much. You had a working bred dog that was bored out of its mind, but none of us knows what that really means. Most folks not involved with working stockdogs on a regular basis don't even know enough to truly understand what working bred means (that is, lots of folks claim their dogs are working bred, but most well-bred working dogs adapt well to any situation and wouldn't be bored out of their minds being pets even).

 

I work full time and freelance on the side, not to mention take care of the farm. My dogs play with one another (at least the non-geriatrics), but I doubt any of them, from the 14 week old to the 16 year old spend hours being active during the day. But really that's a bit beside the point. You told Oko she shouldn't get a working bred border collie if she wasn't going to work it and if she couldn't provide it with 4-5 hours of exercise a day. And that's just not true.

 

So Oko, if you haven't already gotten PMs from folks with the names of good working breeders in the northeast, let us know here. I'm sure many of us can point you in the right direction.

 

IIRC you did have a lot of specific requirements that might make it difficult for you to match up with a breeder, but perhaps if you meet/talk to some breeders you will be able to narrow down what's really important to you and what you can be flexible on and go from there.

 

FWIW, Rebecca, I've bred just two litters, but I absolutely would sell into a great pet home vs. a so-so working home or even a good working home if the person is one who tends to pass dogs along. I would always keep a pup from a litter and would work to place others in good working homes, but I would rather a pup have a great forever home above all else. If you've been lurking for two years, surely you've seen all the posts where other working breeders have also expressed a willingness to sell at least some pups into good pet homes.

 

J.

[Liz P]

rlwgzd, I've been reading your posts. While you claim to have a lot of dog experience, you have said some things that peg you as a relative novice (old wives tails and common misconceptions).

[PSmitty]

Nope, I completely agree, support the working breeders... I think if you read back, you'll see that I couldn't find Oko's other posts and saw some red flags for a puppy mill thing, that turned out to be wrong... Apologies again.

 

 

 

I just don't get that puppy mill thing you keep mentioning? Oko asked for working breeder recommendations, and you tried to tell her that it was "unwise" for her to get a working bred dog, and why. So, not sure how you're trying to help Oko, and Laura isn't, or how you'd like to support the working breeder.

 

No biggie, but kinda confusing, actually.

[rlwzgd]

You are right, I was wrong in assuming she was in over her head - though I wasn't quite assuming she would actually tie it to a tree...

 

Explaining is pointless, but I will anyway - just so you have more to beat me over the head with... When I read Oko's post, there were several red flags that they need to clarify... So I ignored it. But no one posted anything so I clicked her/his profile and it said 0 prior posts, joined yesterday. Immediately that flew a red flag. I overreacted and should've left it to the more experience handlers, but you guys weren't saying anything (obviously now because this wasn't his/her first post). I immediately became concerned, but have now seen that s/he is experienced and know what they are doing. I've apologize repeatedly, only to have you continue to argue with me and not help Oko.

 

So let's look at the facts I had - asking for a dog from a non-working home (assuming any kind of activity for the dog), with incredibly specific characteristics, willing to buy sight unseen, and unwilling to accept rescue for unknown reasons. Worse yet, her (assuming her, like you said) profile had no information, said she joined just before the post and had 0 posts. Clearly, there was a technical issue as it wasn't even counting this post as a post. I don't know why, but your profile says the same thing, so my phone is not working on the board. Clearly, with that information, I assumed the worst about Oko. Additionally, I've heard there has been a lot of fake people signing up with meaningless names spamming the board (I wasn't approved for quite a while because my name was meaningless). So yes, I overreacted. No, I did not think Oko was going to tie her dog to a tree, I thought she didn't know what she was in for. Her avatar is also a poodle ? so I was cautious. Now yes, you are disagreeing with me, I am saying you are right, and you continue to argue. I didn't intend to start something - which is why I said in the first few posts that I'm sure I'm wrong, that you (generic you) will correct me, etc... Clearly some of the "facts" I had were based on false information. But also Oko needs to clarify what she wants. I haven't heard of any litters in New England, but I'm not looking/ever wanting a puppy... I can't take the house breaking (fwiw).

 

Laurae, are you clear now or would you like to disagree? I feel as though we should leave this post for Oko, so feel free to message me or post in the Introduction I started. Any help would be appreciated - and I'd like if you'd stop disagreeing with what I say simply because I say it. I'm here to learn like everyone else and have learned a fair bit. It's not a competition as to who knows more (clearly you) but I do think that I'm not as dumb as you assume (I'm an impartial source)

 

Rebecca

[Laurae]

Honestly, I'm not trying to disagree with you, Rebecca. I just think you've been kind of off base and rather condescending toward the OP, and I was trying to figure out where you were coming from. But I am pretty clear now, so we're good.