Lines suitable for service?

[Flamincomet]

Link is only 3 1/2, but I would like to be prepared with a breeder or two in mind when the time comes to start training a replacement service dog or Dog forbid something happens. I love Link's breeding (bred by Dianne Deal, Riggs x Peg), but it took a bit of maturing to get him where I needed for public access. Pretty much as soon as his herding instinct and hormones kicked in at about 8-9 months he was closed for business until about 6 months ago. He is very intense in everything he does, which is helpful now when he is on duty, but when he was boarding/training with Norm Close it was problematic and he was hard to train (but when he gets it he gets it). He does have a good off switch though. I've considered other breeds but I don't think I could live with anything other than a border collie. I recently tried to train a Papillon when I thought Link had to be washed out, which some have referred to as "mini border collies" but it ended tragically and I had to give him up. Most likely due to the many bad habits/obsessive behaviors he had developed in his previous home, but I've come to be very used to the typical border collie quirkiness, and frankly anything else just gets on my nerves. I professionally groomed for some time and have experience with many breeds, and I have not found one I would seriously consider as a first choice.

 

So I'm looking for breeder recommendations. I realize that border collies absolutely should be bred for working ability and instinct first and foremost, the result of that is why I love them so much for service work. However I know that all lines are different, and there has to be a breeder out there that breeds overall less intense dogs who aren't taken out of commission during adolescence (I plan to get a female next time too). I know this has to do with Link's lines because I've talked to others who have/owned dogs from them and they are very similar. Personal experience with the lines is preferable. Health testing such as hips and eyes is a must as it will be my partner for life and someone I will depend on daily. Temperament-wise I'm looking for a velcro dog, not exceptionally soft (some degree of softness is fine), very attentive and devoted to its person. Overall very mold-able and obedient. I live in Washington state but I'm willing to travel.

[Gloria Atwater]

Your best bet, I suspect, would be to keep an ear out for planned breedings or available litters, and then ask questions about the sire and dam regarding their temperaments and how biddable they are.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about being taken out of commission during adolescence. My dogs are trained for work, not as service dogs, but once I started training them at about 10 months old, there was never any period when I could not train or work with them.

 

What sort of things made your dog hard to deal with from 9 months old to 3 years old?? I'm not understanding "closed for business" due to herding instinct or hormones. Is he a hard dog to train? It could be you simply got a very intense, high-drive dog, and not all BCs are like that. Which gets back to researching the sires and dams of prospective litters and finding out which are more biddable dogs.

 

Best of luck!

 

~ Gloria

[Liz P]

I am not getting it either. Any adolescent dog, no matter the breed, will test its boundaries. Some are pushier than others. Some are more intense than other. I think your best bet is to go to trials, meet lots of dogs and ask about them. If you identify a dog you like, find out its pedigree. Eventually you will see a pattern (find a line of dogs you think will work), and you can use that information to find a breeder or litter of pups.

[workindogs]

I'm not sure what you mean either about adolescence and the dog being out of commission. Regarding hormones....why not neuter?

 

Based on traits you describe as desirable, I would likely refer you back to Patrick Shannahan or Diane Deal as a good place to start.

[SS Cressa]

I could be wrong but I thought she was talking about the maturity of the dog. I know Troy took forever to mature and to get a head to be worked. And Troy was neuter at 2.25 years old.

 

I thought she mention that Norm(the trainer) found him to be a hard dog to train. Did I read that wrong?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers.

 

Ms. Flamincomet writes, in part: "However I know that all lines are different, and there has to be a breeder out there that breeds overall less intense dogs who aren't taken out of commission during adolescence (I plan to get a female next time too)."

 

I am uncertain what is meant here since most sheepdogs are importantly formed/trained from about 6 to 30 months of age but I can speak to her notion there are breeders breeding for the sorts of things the poster is seeking. There aren't. What she's seeking is incidental to what makes a top working sheepdog and nobody who could find his hat with his hands would breed for those qualities.

 

Many years ago, Ralph Pulfer said a winning trial dog had to have a good outrun and shed and I can't imagine many breeders would breed a dog that couldn't bring in his sheep and/or wouldn't separate them. But that is all the commonality I can think of (and there are exceptions: Bobby Dalziel's Wisp was a terrible outrunner, Dryden Joe's dam never worked sheep etc.)

 

Like any professional athlete, what makes a great sheepdog is a unique combination of mental gifts. Some are hard, some soft, some "natural", some biddable. Sheep "like" some of them and "respect" others. While top handler trainers have strong preferences not uncommonly one finds a top handler with a dog they don't really "like" but who gets the job done.

 

Furthermore, some of these dogs/gyps pass on their best qualities and some don't. Some are "prepotent" others not.

 

And those that do throw successful pups throw a variety - a few in a litter will carry the desirable sire/dam's celebrated qualities most will have other qualities which - by the way - may be just as desirable.

 

If the poster finds a sire - better still a dam - she likes, she has a modest chance of getting those qualities she's seeking though what will happen when that pup reaches puberty probably depends more on her, not its breeding. If her pup is hard, she'll need to learn how to handle a hard dog. If it's keen she'll need to direct that keenness. If she's lucky and dedicated, she will become a savvier trainer every dog she trains.

 

If all this seems risky and complex, it is and it isn't.

 

Is: It's a new world.

 

Isn't: I once asked Tom Wilson what percentage of well bred sheepdog pups would - if properly trained - work sheep. Tommy thought 90 -95%.

 

Donald McCaig

[Pam Wolf]

To the OP, a well bred dog with a sound temperment needs focus, NOT selection for less 'intensity'. There are lots of 'less intense' dogs being bred out there, many will do some work but are not the best stockdogs IMO. And it is those good stockdogs that have had their drive focused and trained that makes people want a Border Collie afterall.

 

As for Tom Wilson's remark, I agree with him, the key is "well bred" and unfortunately these days there are far too many not well bred dogs being produced out there.

[Flamincomet]

What I mean by being taken out of commission, is that there came a point where I was unable to work Link as a service dog or in agility (he was still worked on stock) due to maturity issues, it took a long time for him to get out of the teenager phase. So pretty much all the problems you normally encounter with a dog during adolescence, but magnified beyond normal and lasting for over 2 years. He is neutered. Things like motion sensitivity, being high strung, poor impulse control, not listening, concentration difficulties, etc. I did a great deal of training with him specifically on impulse control and relaxation work, so I know it wasn't something on my end. He was also intensely socialized. It was just like a switch was flipped once he hit a certain age and it didn't get turned off until he was 3. I know between 2-3 is usually the age border collies fully mature, but I've owned border collies for over 10 years, and this was beyond normal.

 

What I mean by intense I suppose is that he is "hard." He can be soft also, but a lot of things do not phase him. He was pretty difficult to train some things, and can still be because of this. As I mentioned before, he was boarding and training with Norm and Vickie for about 6 months total. He still needs to learn how to start driving, and it took him that entire time to learn simple things like calling off of stock reliably (which he has always had problems with since his first time on stock with Dianne Deal).

 

Gloria you are very likely right that I just happened to get a very intense high drive dog. I'm still keeping his lines (mainly his sire, as I suspect the maturity issues may have come from his dam) in mind, but I would plan on getting a puppy 2-3 years before I planned to retire Link to give them more time to mature. Which I would prefer not to have to do, as training a service dog is obviously a lot of work and an extra year to mature is a year taken off their working career. His sire is 2010 USBCHA national open champion "Riggs" and from what I've heard of him he is not like Link, so it is very possible either Link is an exception or he gets these traits from his dam. I plan to start trialing Link this year sometime, so I will of course be keeping my eye out for dogs I like and talking to their owners/breeder, but it would be helpful to have a place to start.

 

"I am uncertain what is meant here since most sheepdogs are importantly formed/trained from about 6 to 30 months of age but I can speak to her notion there are breeders breeding for the sorts of things the poster is seeking. There aren't. What she's seeking is incidental to what makes a top working sheepdog and nobody who could find his hat with his hands would breed for those qualities."

 

I think you misunderstood me. What I mean by breeding overall intense dogs is not intentionally selecting less intense, faster maturing dogs to breed, but rather that is just what the breeder lines generally turn out like. There is a great deal of variety in this breed and I'm sure there are breeders with lines like this out there.

[Gloria Atwater]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

I'll therefore echo the suggestion that you get out and try to meet some dogs and bitches whom you like, and ask about their breeding. It's often said that the dam throws the strongest influence, and Riggs doesn't have a reputation for being a hard dog. So perhaps watching for nice bitches and asking about them would be your best bet.

 

For a dog to remain that difficult until he was 3 is NOT what I consider the norm in Border Collies. Therefore I think you should not have great difficulty finding more biddable lines out there. Sorry I can't recommend actual breeders at this moment, but I wish you luck in your search.

 

~ Gloria

[workindogs]

One way to avoid some of the uncertainty of how your future pup might turn out is to buy an already adolescent dog that exhibits the qualities you seek in a therapy dog. Even if a breeder believes that a certain cross might produce certain qualities you never really know...and you won't know the true temperament and quality of a pup until it matures.

[Sue R]

One way to avoid some of the uncertainty of how your future pup might turn out is to buy an already adolescent dog that exhibits the qualities you seek in a therapy dog. Even if a breeder believes that a certain cross might produce certain qualities you never really know...and you won't know the true temperament and quality of a pup until it matures.

This is, I think, the most solid (of many good ideas) that has been presented. A pup, no matter how careful the breeding, is still an unknown quantity. Good breeding decisions make the likelihood of a pup that will be a good working dog much more likely, but are not a guarantee.

 

You might find a young dog that perhaps is a working washout, that could be the perfect sort of dog for you. These sorts of youngsters may come back to the breeder as non-workers or just as not seeming suitable for what the buyer needs.

 

You might even check with reputable rescues, and find a youngster who, while you may not know his/her background or pedigree, could be just the sort of animal you need. Good rescues, with good foster homes, often know a great deal *about* the animals they have available in terms of those traits that might make them a good candidate for what you need.

 

Best wishes finding the right dog at the right time for you!

[Flamincomet]

I use a service dog, not therapy dog. I tried working with an adult (the Papillon) and it only strengthened my belief that I am a puppy person. I have had rescues before, but that's not what I'm looking for for my future partner. With the type of work I'm wanting them to perform it's mandatory that I be able to raise them so they can bond closely and get a really good idea of what my baseline is. Also I need to be sure that they are socialized properly to situations most pet dogs are never exposed to even with good socializing. I know that it is perfectly possible to bond closely with an adult dog, but I've found dogs I've raised myself to be much more responsive and alert. Getting a puppy is always a gamble, but if Link is not the norm hopefully my chances of getting a normal pup have increased lol.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

When I wrote: "I can speak to her notion there are breeders breeding for the sorts of things the poster is seeking. There aren't. What she's seeking is incidental to what makes a top working sheepdog and nobody who could find his hat with his hands would breed for those qualities."

 

Ms. Flamincomet replied:

 

"I think you misunderstood me. What I mean by breeding overall intense dogs is not intentionally selecting less intense, faster maturing dogs to breed, but rather that is just what the breeder lines generally turn out like. There is a great deal of variety in this breed and I'm sure there are breeders with lines like this out there."

 

There are great many breeders and a handful of top breeders. Most breeders include "biddability" among the traits they're looking for. Perhaps over time very slow maturing dogs lose the evolutionary sweepstakes since they don't do well as nursery dogs or be useful as early on the farm but, certainly, some very well bred dogs are slow developers- my June didn't come into her own until she was four and many of her littermates (all with experienced handlers) were slow developers too. Far as I can tell, slow development didn't effect anyone's breeding decisions nor puppy desirablity. Although selecting for younger usefulness makes sense I have never heard of anyone doing it nor do I know of "lines" known for young development. Contrarywise I have heard a brilliant two year old open dog criticized (and it turned out, correctly) because he was "Too good too young."

 

One might find a laid back pup in many litters - that they'd be laid back after puberty - I dunno.

 

But that there are sheepdog breeders with lines that "generally turn out" less intense and faster maturing? No.

 

Donald McCaig

[Liz P]

You can't just look at the genetic influence of sire and dam. You also have to look at the other ancestors. Sometimes traits skip generations and show up later. When I look for a pup or dog, I want to know the entire bloodline. Do I consistently like the dogs from one generation to the next? If I don't like multiple generations, I move on and look for something else.

 

Donald, I do know some people who select for early maturity. Are they good breeders? I don't know enough of their dogs to judge that. Certainly most of the top trainers and breeders talk about how long they give a dog to impress them before they move it along to a pet/sport/hobby home. It seems rare to keep a dog much beyond 18 months, though "showing promise" isn't the same thing as "mature." A dog can show a lot of promise and be useful on the farm but not be mature enough to be competitive on the trial field until it is middle aged. I always remind myself of the saying that a dog is not truly an adult until it has a year under each paw.

 

One the best dogs I have ever owned wasn't mature until he was close to 4 years old, but he was well worth the wait. I really liked his determination and drive. He wouldn't work for you unless you earned his respect. Once you had it, he would die for you.

 

I do feel that some dogs naturally have more self control than others, however, teaching self control to a pup is a critical part of developing a working dog. Dogs that learn self control from a young age are already well ahead of the game and much easier to train in the long run. I have taken pups that naturally have very poor self control and raised them into adults with excellent self control.

 

To the OP, you say you have had Border Collies for 10 years. How many have you raised from pup to adult?

[olivehill]

I'm a bit scared to say it lest I am blasted, but maybe a different breed would be a better choice?

 

I'm green when it comes to BCs so perhaps my perception is inaccurate (and if so I rest assured someone more experienced will speak up to that tune) but my impression of the Border Collie community as a whole (and especially among the working folks who are breeding the quality pups you're looking for) is that maturity is not something to be rushed. It's just seems as though it's common knowledge and very widely accepted that a dog is a youngster for a few years before they come into their own. Some may "grow up" a little earlier, but that's a bonus, not an expectation.

 

Certainly, I agree with some of the sentiments about training playing a role, but I'm just sitting here thinking of my own BC pup who is quickly approaching a year old and while he is a really good dog I cannot imagine him being a really valuable service dog anytime soon. And my impression over the past two years as I've talked with experienced BC folks and researched in preparation for him is that this is very much in line with expectations.

 

Like I said, I'm green in this world, so maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like you keep saying "I don't want to wait 2-3 years" when pretty much everything I've heard and read about border collies with regards to work is that it takes 2-3 years for many to really click, which makes me question whether or not a BC is really the right choice for you.

[Maralynn]

^^I was wondering the same thing^^ There is a reason service dog organizations don't use high drive dogs for service dog work. A dog bred to work all day and a breed that is sensitive and can be highly reactive to motion is going to present certain challenges in training.

[Sheepishdog]

Even if you do all the research you can to select a perfect breeder/pup there is still a high chance it won't work out. I'm sure you already know the wash-out rate for owner training.

I thought I had a great prospect puppy. Dad was a therapy dog and mom was a sweet farm dog with a just enough drive to not be overbearing. The breeder knew exactly what I wanted and was sure it would be a great match. The puppy turned out to be not at all suitable and I had to start my search again.

The dog I have now is not great either. He has a pretty high startle response and focus issues but I'm hoping those can be overcome with training.

I will probably start with an older puppy or adolescent next time, so the personality and temperament has come out a bit. It's just too hard to guess. You might as well close your eyes and pick.

[Flamincomet]

McCaig I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one, either you're not understanding what I'm saying or you don't want to. Rate of maturity is a genetic trait, for example the boys in my personal family ALL sprout like skinny trees at the same time, they all have very similar behavioral changes, as well as physical, and they are generally done with these changes and mature into "adults" at about 22-23. This wasn't intentionally selected, but it happened anyway. Just like if a breeder is known for having smooth coats or tri colored dogs, it doesn't necessarily mean they selected for smooth coat or tri-coloring, rather the dogs with working traits they liked also happened to also have these traits, therefore these traits ended up in their lines more often then not. A relative example is my dog Link's lines. His breeder mentioned when I was starting stock with him, dogs from his breeding are usually ready to work around 8-9 months, but the bitches can take longer to be ready, sometimes up to 18 months.

 

Thanks for the informative and helpful post Liz P. I have raised 3 border collies from puppies. 2 of those were exceptional in different ways and taught me a lot for better or worse. Link is the same way that he was worth the wait. Honestly I wouldn't be bad off at all if I got another dog from his lines, I'm just looking at other options as well.

 

I figured someone would suggest a different breed, and I'm not going to blast anyone for that, it's certainly something I've strongly considered. However there are pros and cons to every breed, and in the end I feel that border collies are the best match for my personal needs in a service dog. The typical retriever breeds are great for typical service dog careers, but what I am looking for is very different, and honestly retrievers annoy the crap out of me lol.

 

I didn't get Link with the intention of him being a service dog. He was one of two males in the litter and I was second pick. I couldn't imagine having a different dog though, but I would definitely be doing temperament testing, such as Volhard, with a future puppy to increase my rate of success.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Ms. Flamincomet writes:

 

"McCaig I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one, either you're not understanding what I'm saying or you don't want to."

 

I think Ms. Flamincomet was perfectly clear in her very first post.

 

" there has to be a breeder out there that breeds overall less intense dogs who aren't taken out of commission during adolescence . . ."

 

and later"what I mean by breeding overall intense dogs is not intentionally selecting less intense, faster maturing dogs to breed, but rather that is just what the breeder lines generally turn out like."

 

Less intense, quicker maturation. Yep. Got it.

 

It's the "there has to be a breeder out there" who breeds such dogs that is our disagreement. I've no doubt there are laid back quick maturing pups. But nobody breeds for them and since nobody breeds for them there aren't "lines" of them. Doubtless there are pups that love kids and pups that hate kids- but nobody breeds for either so there aren't breeders of nor "lines" of "kid-friendly" or "hate-kid" pups.

 

Ms. Flamincomet might consider Barbie Collies. Since keenness is contra-indicated for dog shows and is annoying to many pet owners, it is bred against. Since many dog show folk wish to put championships on their dogs young, they may select for early maturation too but I'm not sure about that.

 

Donald McCaig

[gcv-border]

Since many dog show folk wish to put championships on their dogs young, they may select for early maturation too but I'm not sure about that.

 

Donald McCaig

 

A bit off-topic, but I do believe that you are right in that KC show folks desire earlier maturing (at least based on physical appearance) dogs since the dog can start accumulating points much earlier in its career. I can't remember the exact details, but there was a study done which showed that dogs that achieved championships at a younger age were preferentially used for breeding (more breeding fees for the owner) when compared to dogs that were older when obtaining their championship(s).

 

Jovi

[Katariina]

I don't think anyone intentionally would want to breed "less intense" dogs, if you're breeding working dogs.

Every once and while you might get a pup that while having an intense working instinct, might also be maturing very early.

 

I have almost 1.5 yrs old female that was 'born mature'...she never had any puppy behavior that I'm used to pups having. From early on you could see this pup being slightly different than her siblings and she has been absolutely easiest dog to train so far. She definitely is an intense worker, but yet extremely biddable. Neither one of her parents were mature very early on either, so I didn't expect to get this easy dog from that cross.

 

Will be interesting to see, if she'll produce pups like she is(but that's down the road for a couple of years) and the male I'm going to use on her, is extremely intense and hyper, so her pups most likely won't be as 'easy' as she has been.

[juliepoudrier]

Katarina makes a good point. The males from the line I prefer are generally easygoing, but still intense and slow to mature. My own best bitch was just like Katarina described: essentially self training out of the box. Yet her offspring did not inherit her more laid back personality. All of them are much pushier, slower maturing dogs, which may have come from the sire.

 

I think the problem you're dealing with (Flamincomet) is that most breeders aren't looking to create lines of faster maturing, more laid back dogs. I understand that you're saying that there might be lines out there that are that way as a byproduct of a breeding program, but I think more often than not, the faster maturing dogs are the ones who are likely to be pretty darn intense--these are the dogs who become the early starters, the nursery stars, etc. I'm not saying that the two (fast maturing and less intense) are mutually exclusive, but I think if you're set on a puppy, then you should just take the same approach you took last time and pick a pup from parents whose personality traits you like and then just hope the pup inherited the tendency toward those same traits.

 

I don't know that I believe the the dam has a greater influence on a litter than the sire does (it hasn't been my experience), but certainly I think people tend to not look as much as what the dam produces/has produced, and she does supply 50% of the genetics, so it's well worth looking at both sire and dam's lines, offspring, siblings, etc.

 

As I've been reading this thread it also crossed my mind that a dog from show lines might better meet your needs. Such dogs are certainly smart, but they definitely in general aren't as intense as a typical working bred dog, at least IME.

 

J.

[Flamincomet]

McCaig I think you missed the rest of my paragraph where I was talking about genetic traits.

 

"It's the "there has to be a breeder out there" who breeds such dogs that is our disagreement"

 

Again, I am not asking for a breeder who INTENTIONALLY breeds for faster maturing dogs (and btw in comparison to Link I'm really asking for not extended maturity, just normal). Please reread my last paragraph regarding genetic traits.

 

Honestly I didn't ever think I'd see the day where conformation bred border collies would be recommended here. It's something I consider off and on, but I feel strongly about supporting responsible working breeders, and not supporting what I see as irresponsible breeding. I owned and have experience with show border collies in the past, and based on my experience working lines may be more intense in some ways, but they are better put together mentally, and have the mental drive and stamina that I am looking for in this type of work.

 

There are pros and cons to every breed, every type within that breed, and if I can't find a working breeder who's dogs don't take 3 years to be able to work in public places, I would still rather deal with that challenge, I'm certainly better prepared for it now. Link is the best dog I've ever had, and an amazing service dog. Yesterday when I went in with him to get tattoo work done I passed the leash to my bf and he settled into a calm down immediately, even as some strange guy did painful things to my arm and strange/loud people walked by or came up to look. He's very alert and intuitive and knows exactly when I need him. If I have to wait again to get that in my next service dog I'm more than willing.

[juliepoudrier]

So then your original question is moot?

 

J.

[Flamincomet]

I suppose since no one seems to be able to answer it lol. Maybe fast maturity is a conformation thing. I have heard some people comment that certain working lines are slow maturing though, so I thought there might be the opposite. If slow maturity is just part of working lines I'll just add it to the cons of the breed for me, but the pros still far outweigh them.