Border Collie Collapse vs. Heat Stroke / Hyperthermia?

[2 Devils]

So I have followed this thread to a point. I got tired of the banter and the fact it got away from the posters question.

 

Without seeing the dog it is hard to know if it is BCC or Heat Exhaustion.

 

I know my Border Collie has the gene they believe is the cause of BCC. She has been in the study from the early days when they were trying to decide if it was like EIC in labs.

 

I freaked out at the beginning when it first happened but have since become less stressed about since I know she will be fine within a short time.

 

I would get video if I had a camera handy during on the episodes but won't go so far as to induce one. For science, I know it needs to be done and don't begrudge those that have done it. Everything bit of data that can be gathered will help others.

 

I must also say that yes information for each video would be nice but at the same time most of the information can be found on that website or from the youtube link for the video. I would prefer they spend their resources on the research itself instead of on the website. When the research is more complete/updates to give/etc... then I want to see it on the website but until then I am happy that the resources are being spent on research... and not making a site look pretty and organized with too much info that many won't bother to read.

[TEC]

Waiting…Waiting…see post #18.

 

Proper way to emphasize quoted material is to conclude with “(emphasis added)”. Original quote in this case was written unbolded. In any event, bolded sentence does not speak to whether intent was to purposely induce BCC symptoms. If purposeful, no information was provided whether medically relevant measurements of dogs were obtained at time of video, nor whether veterinary personnel were present to intervene if dog got into medical trouble.

 

Later, and on this discussion thread, two of the handlers added information, which in my view should have been explicitly set-forth at time videos were first posted.

 

Because Mr. Billadeau interprets vet school website at variance with the way I read it, is no call to stoop to callous remarks.

 

Remarks of Ms. Julie Poudrier would carry more weight by refraining from phrases, such as: 1) “People don't bother to…” , and 2) “Obviously you don't care…”. Regarding number one, people do or don’t do things for many reasons, often not influenced by whether it is a “bother” or not. Reference number two, not much is “obvious", and interpretations abound.

 

Am invited to accept claimed higher authority and experience -- self-proclaimed cognoscenti. Thank you, but on this subject am able to reason and make conclusions for myself, and express my own opinions. Science is about published written material setting forth findings, using scientific method. Knowing a person’s personality has little or no relevance to scientific issues. “Most people”, “society”, and “they”, won’t be available by cell phone when the chips are down. Liberal Arts education heavy on science, imparted by independent thinking teachers, opens and liberates a person’s mind. Have made happy life thinking for myself. Recommend it. People are not sheep. Those wonderful animals should remain where they are happiest.

 

Having fully read, prior to my first post on this thread: 1) the website page linked to videos, and 2) descriptions, or lack thereof, provided with the videos (all four), was not satisfied that each of the videographers had filmed according to criteria in second full paragraph above.

 

Ask that Mr. Billadeau and Ms. Julie Poudrier watch videos which began this discussion, and written background account for circumstances surrounding them. Have been waiting since post No. 18. Believe refusal to watch the videos has lead to unsupported statements, and therefore inhibits this conversation.

 

Mr. Billadeau of this discussion board has quoted material from vet website, which he believes supports his position that my concerns were answered. The quoted material goes only to general observations about BCC, and not specific information about circumstances under which videos was made. Research guidelines, in my view, should require the types of disclosures, set forth in second paragraph above, in order to publish videos of animals who are purposely subjected to symptoms of disorder.

 

My heart goes out to AgilityAddict05 who initiated this discussion, as well as all whose dogs/animals experience symptoms of heat/stress/exercise related disorders. Little Bo Peep, above, says that symptoms similar to canine's are exhibited by horses. Do the horses become mentally disoriented like dogs? It's a terrible disorder that calls-out for a cure, or way of preventing it. – Kind regards, TEC

[emilyfalk]

Trying to keep things civil and to the point...But I wanted to point out that this is not the same condition as "tying up" (exertional rhabdomyolysis) in horses. Also, TEC, we understand your concern for welfare, but please be aware that the study is in its infancy, therefore an "official" video has not been published. Instead, these videos represent little more than first-hand visual aids raising awareness of the condition. An information-gathering step to garner more participation in their research. Knowing one of the video posters and her dog personally, I can assure you that she didn't run for the video camera the first time this happened to her dog. Once the owners understood that the dogs recovered shortly and without medical intervention, *then* did they feel the timing was right for documentation.

 

Video documentation is an extremely useful tool for veterinarians (and I should know, as I am one).

 

I am also one who is appreciative of Mark and Julie's contribution to many threads, especially health-related ones. Denise, too. They have the knowledge and experience to provide excellent input.

 

And I am happy to support the efforts of those who are trying to advance medical knowledge in our breed.

[juliepoudrier]

I find it humorous that TEC finds it necessary to tell others here about proper posting etiquette, but whatever. I guess Mark can fight that battle if he chooses, or Betty, since they apparently committed a cardinal sin of emphasizing quoted material without adding the obligatory [emphasis added].

 

So I ask you, what is it you're waiting for? One of us to concede that you're right and we're wrong?

 

Why do you assume that neither of us has watched the videos? They've been on that site for some time, and have been discussed here in the past, especially when the researchers first put out a call for suspected affected dogs. How would I know that Denise's Zeke was one of the dogs in question if I hadn't watched the videos? What is it you want me to admit to? That the videos themselves don't have information about whether a vet was present? Something else?

 

And I'm not sure what thread you've been reading, but I'm pretty sure I haven't proclaimed myself as anything here. You have simply stooped to namecalling because I don't agree with you and won't agree with you. Is that some sort of lawyerly tactic?

 

Again, I would invite you to conatct the researchers directly and express your concerns. I imagine they will either be able to allay those concerns or not, but as I am not involved in the research and don't share your concerns, it's not really an issue for me.

 

J.

[Sue R]

I am also one who is appreciative of Mark and Julie's contribution to many threads, especially health-related ones. Denise, too. They have the knowledge and experience to provide excellent input.

 

And I am happy to support the efforts of those who are trying to advance medical knowledge in our breed.

I agree with you, Emily. And I am also familiar to one degree or another with Mark's, Julie's, and Denise's qualifications to comment on stockdog issues, including health, based on their educational backgrounds, professions, and experience with working and training stockdogs (and, for Mark and Denise at least, significant volunteer years' involvement with health and genetic issues).

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I agree with you, Emily. And I am also familiar to one degree or another with Mark's, Julie's, and Denise's qualifications to comment on stockdog issues, including health, based on their educational backgrounds, professions, and experience with working and training stockdogs (and, for Mark and Denise at least, significant volunteer years' involvement with health and genetic issues).

 

TEC (Tom)

 

I know you have a Border Collie named Josie and have run her in some Novice trials but I actually don't remember all of your background on the breed.....professionally, educational wise, experience in working/trialing/farming, health, genetics and involevment, etc in the breed.

 

I am not interested in whether I read or not.... the comments on the video or whether I did the proper quoting or not......

[Mark Billadeau]

Research guidelines, in my view, should require the types of disclosures, set forth in second paragraph above, in order to publish videos of animals who are purposely subjected to symptoms of disorder.

Perhaps you should then address this with the governing bodies which maintain the ethics guidelines by which researchers are guided. To me, your complaint is that the guidelines do not meet with your sensibilities.

 

What I find interesting is that you are making statements about a disorder solely based upon viewing a few videos while those of us responding to you have dealt with the disorder personally. In this scenario, who do you think has the greater experience and knowledge (in terms of the health & welfare impacts on the dogs) on this disorder?

 

 

 

 

As I stated in a PM to another poster, my posts have not so much been for the benefit of TEC (who has made it clear his position and that his position will not be moved) but for those who are lurking. I believe I have accomplished my goals.

[Sue R]

As I stated in a PM to another poster, my posts have not so much been for the benefit of TEC (who has made it clear his position and that his position will not be moved) but for those who are lurking. I believe I have accomplished my goals.

Yes, you have, I am sure. Thanks as always to you, Julie, and Denise for your input on this topic and its tangential issues.

[Pearse]

Since I have worked at both institutions where the research on BCC is being done (those being the WCVM at Univ of Saskatchewan, and the Univ. of Minnesota), and have submitted and reviewed grant submissions to both institutions which involved animal research, I know a little of the composition of their Insitutuional Animal Care and Use Committees, and the regulations under which animal research is conducted.

 

The IUCAC at both institutions included, veterinarians, scientists, ethicists, members of the community, animal care technicians, and members of the university community who are not engaged in animal research. The rules regarding the use of animals in research projects are designed to minimize animal suffering and ensure humane treatment.

 

This is particularly the case, as one might expect, when dealing with animals in a clinical setting where the animals are companion animals or livestock belonging to clients.

 

Dog owners participating is research are required to be informed of the nature of the research and all of the risks which may be involved. Such informed consent is a prerequisite for obtaining approval from the IUCAC to proceed with the research.

 

Some of the YouTube videos posted were posted by individual owners and were not part of any research project. Therefore, they probably did not observe proper research protocol. That does not make their contributions any less valuable or any less ethical. These dog owners most likely have seen this condition in their dogs often enough to be certain that the dog was in no danger.

 

TEC claims that some sort of disclaimer is required along with the BCC videos because he believes that inducing suffering in animals is unethical. I doubt anyone here would disagree with that. However, what evidence does he have that BCC causes suffering in the affected animals, or in any way endangers their long-term health or well-being? The clinical data do not support such a conclusion. These dogs show no abnormalities physiologically, biochemically, or anatomically that would suggest long term problems. They recover quickly when exercise is terminated, and show few, if any, signs of distress. Those are the clinical findings from Dr. Taylor's examination of these animals.

 

Clearly there is some problem somewhere, but none of the affected dogs have been reported suffering life-threatening or in any way debilitating short-term or long-term effects, so the presumption that inducing an affective episode is somehow cruel and unethical is not supported by the evidence.

 

I think TEC is correct in that it would be useful to have some cautionary language added to the U of MN website at the very least differentiating BCC from heat stroke and cautioning owners not to try inducing symptoms outside the care of a veterinarian in case someone does not know the difference and induces heat stroke because they incorrectly assume their dog has BCC. I will pass along those concerns to Dr. Mickelson's group.

 

For the record, there would be no research effort into BCC were it not for the work of Mark Billadeau who as chair of the ABCA Health and Genetics Committee shepherded the grant proposals on this through the approval process and got the seed money approved for Dr. Taylor to do the first clinical studies on this condition. Several other people posting here have also been supportive of this effort by submitting videos of affected dogs, submitting DNA samples, or organizing the collection of DNA samples at trials and clinics. So, perhaps rather than being pedantic about the proper use of quote tags, ellipses, parenthetical editorial comments and the like, or getting hung up on the correct way to cite material in the public domain on websites, you could express your appreciation for them taking the time to address this issue, and additionally to invest a considerable amount of their time in civilly addressing your concerns.

 

Pearse

[Eileen Stein]

Pearse's. post would be a good last word on this issue, but I did want to add to one of his points. I have a dog affected with this condition, and it is evident to me that he does not experience any suffering at all in connection with the episodes he has had. He is uncoordinated, and stumbles around, and naturally it makes me feel bad to see him in that condition. But HE doesn't seem to feel bad, either physically or emotionally. He has had water close by, but has shown no interest in drinking (he never does drink immediately after working -- like many dogs it takes him ten minutes or so after he's finished working to want to drink). He doesn't even seem embarrassed or concerned about the fact that his legs are not working right, or even conscious of it. As I said on the research questionnaire I submitted, I had the feeling that if I asked him to go for the sheep again when he was in that condition, he would try. (Of course I have never done that.). He gradually returns to normal over the course of ten or fifteen minutes. I understand that there are dangers to swimming retrievers who could drown while in the "collapse" state, but that risk doesn't apply to a dog staggering around in an enclosed field.

 

Acktually, I have often felt guilty that I have not tried to produce the phenomenon so that I could video it, because I know how valuable video documentation of a variety of affected dogs is in these early stages of the research, and I have no reason to think it would cause suffering to my dog. It is nothing but squeamishness on my part, sad to say, that has kept me from doing so -- ethical strictures against causing suffering (which I certainly share) would simply not come into it.

 

Finally, I don't see why it would be relevant to provide information about whether in each video the videographer purposely induced the symptoms or not. This is not the "Materials and Methods" section of a formal study. The videos are included only to show what the condition looks like. They were taken by dog owners with no formal role in the research, and the researchers may not even know whether the symptoms were deliberately induced or not (except for the one case where the videograper provides that info along with the video). And where the dogs and their owners are not identified, the reader who is disposed to make moral judgments really has no individual to whom to attach those judgments.

[katenjim]

Just curious to those who have dogs with this condition. I too, have a border collie that started collapsing at about 8 months of age. Weather made no difference. After a little exercise he would stumble, go in circles and collapse, usually last 10 minutes or so. He didn't seem at all bothered by this. ( I did!) After the episode was over, he would get very excited and want to run like mad. Almost to the point of euphoria. His episodes were a few times a year. He now is almost 9 and has not had any in 2 years. He still gets the same amount of exercise. Wondering if they grow out of this? Anyone else experience this.?

[geonni banner]

My dog had three episodes of what looked like this. Each time she was playing fetch in an enclosed courtyard. Her symptoms were minor - wobbly gait, especially in the rear quarters, slight disorientation. It lasted less than five minutes. She didn't seem bothered by it. She didn't seem thirsty either. She still wanted me to throw the ball. She seemed completely normal after 5 minutes or so. After that I threw the ball two or three more times and then quit.

 

The temperatures were in the mid to low 70s. This occurred when she was between 8 and 10 months of age. She is now 4 years old. She runs hard in all weathers and has had nothing like this since

[TEC]

 

...TEC claims that some sort of disclaimer is required along with the BCC videos because he believes that inducing suffering in animals is unethical. I doubt anyone here would disagree with that. However, what evidence does he have that BCC causes suffering in the affected animals, or in any way endangers their long-term health or well-being? The clinical data do not support such a conclusion. These dogs show no abnormalities physiologically, biochemically, or anatomically that would suggest long term problems. They recover quickly when exercise is terminated, and show few, if any, signs of distress. Those are the clinical findings from Dr. Taylor's examination of these animals.

 

Clearly there is some problem somewhere, but none of the affected dogs have been reported suffering life-threatening or in any way debilitating short-term or long-term effects, so the presumption that inducing an affective episode is somehow cruel and unethical is not supported by the evidence.

 

I think TEC is correct in that it would be useful to have some cautionary language added to the U of MN website at the very least differentiating BCC from heat stroke and cautioning owners not to try inducing symptoms outside the care of a veterinarian in case someone does not know the difference and induces heat stroke because they incorrectly assume their dog has BCC. I will pass along those concerns to Dr. Mickelson's group...

 

Pearse

 

Appreciate obtaining discussions with the veterinary school about posting clear disclaimer/warnings to dog owners regarding discouraging home-made research projects using their own dogs as subjects. Thanks to Mr. Billadeau, as well, for his efforts within ABCA to gain funding for veterinary research.

 

Please recall my remarks remained absolutely business-like/courteous until posts 41 and 42 (above) inferring that I somehow didn't have the time/energy to read and/or understand language not included on the vet website, and making use of callous remark about horses and water.

 

Am not against all animal suffering. My position was made clear in the above thread.

 

It was asked above what evidence exists that an episode of Border Collie Collapse (BCC) causes suffering. That question is part of what the current research is all about. In the meantime, take a look at the symptoms. Like you said, something is going on. Cardiac, circulatory, chemical imbalance, neurological, the suspect list goes on? Nobody knows for sure. I am not ready to say, based on available reading, that a dog undergoing BCC episode is not suffering. Thank goodness, from all accounts the dogs recover reasonably rapidly, and apparently don't have lingering after-effects. The fact that the counter-question can justifiably be asked -- what evidence is available that BCC dogs don't incur suffering -- focuses the issue. In my estimation, until more is known, reasonable care should be taken that BCC-prone dogs do not incur unintended episodes. Further, only dogs that have veterinary personnel near-by for care and testing should intentionally be subjected to BCC episode. -- Kind regards, TEC

[TEC]

Perhaps you should then address this with the governing bodies which maintain the ethics guidelines by which researchers are guided. To me, your complaint is that the guidelines do not meet with your sensibilities.

 

What I find interesting is that you are making statements about a disorder solely based upon viewing a few videos while those of use responding to you have dealt with the disorder personally. In this scenario, who do you think has the greater experience and knowledge (in terms of the health & welfare impacts on the dogs) on this disorder...

 

 

Thank ABCA and Mr. Billadeau in his position as committee chairman for providing funding to veterinary research. He should keep in mind how shepherding-through a project can bias a person's views in its favor, so that a project's flaws may not be perceived.

 

How do you conclude that my views are based only upon a handful of videos? A person's opinions about something complex, involving veterinary/social/ethical/animal/philosophical/etc issues have due connection in this instance to videos, although they are additionally hugely associated with an array of other factors. Your position on ABCA committee, education, experience provide a base of knowledge, and numerous elements in my background provide the same. As mentioned above, no one should begin making assumptions about findings BCC researchers will eventually make. -- Kind regards, TEC

[Mark Billadeau]

He should keep in mind how shepherding-through a project can bias a person's views in its favor, so that a project's flaws may not be perceived.

The reminder is not necessary; I am well versed in the scientific method and am quite able to see the flaws. While I don't have a clinical studies certification like Denise Wall; I have earned a PhD in chemistry, have 3 years postdoctoral research experience (cancer treatment research), and 18 years industrial research in developing and manufacturing clinical diagnostic test kits.

[Eileen Stein]

The question of whether BCC episodes should be filmed by owners, whether such videos should be referred/linked to by researchers, and whether, if they are linked to, information should be provided about the presence of absence of vets during the episode has been exhausted and is now closed. The sole exception is that TEC may, if s/he wishes, post his or her name and the "numerous elements in [his or her] background" that form a basis for his/her knowledge and opinions.

 

Other than that, please confine further posts in this thread to the thread topic: Border Collie Collapse vs. Heat Stroke/Hyperthermia."

[Eileen Stein]

The report based on the clinical study already conducted by Dr. Sue Taylor and colleagues (previously referred to by Pearse and Mark) ruled out "cardiac arrhythmias, anemia, electrolyte disturbances, hypoglycemia, hypocalcemia, hypoadrenocorticism, heat stroke, myasthenia gravis or a mitochondrial myopathy as the cause of their exercise intolerance" and concluded that "BCC appears to be an episodic nervous system disorder that can be triggered by exercise. Common metabolic and cardiac causes of exercise intolerance have been eliminated as the cause of BCC."