ABCA vs. AKC Registration Question

[Sue R]

ABCA papers (or ISDS papers) are not a guarantee of anything. What is as close to a guarantee as you will get is the performance of the parents and grandparents, and earlier generations of the dog in question (not just a few outstanding individuals somewhere back in a pedigree), and the consideration that went into the breeding that produced that dog (are the two animals a good match for producing quality pups).

 

But, a breeder registering dogs with AKC only, or dual-registering, is saying something about how he/she feels about the working-bred Border Collie - and I think that its putting working ability (and the future of the breed) in secondary place to other considerations (which may or may not include showing, orienting sales towards non-working homes, being able to get higher prices for pups to non-working homes, and supporting a registry that promotes conformation and physical attributes as the major criteria for breeding).

 

Just my opinion.

[Sue R]

Julie - BCSA AOM is Award of Merit. Whatever that means.

[juliepoudrier]

But, a breeder registering dogs with AKC only, or dual-registering, is saying something about how he/she feels about the working-bred Border Collie - and I think that its putting working ability (and the future of the breed) in secondary place to other considerations (which may or may not include showing, orienting sales towards non-working homes, being able to get higher prices for pups to non-working homes, and supporting a registry that promotes conformation and physical attributes as the major criteria for breeding).

I agree with this mostly. I can think of some breeders who produce very nice working dogs but who also dual register to expand their market for pups. But they still put working ability to the fore. After all. some of my best working dogs came from people like this.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

My point was just dont judge a book by its cover. Or a dog by its registy.

 

In my statment of the owner being novice was based on the odditity in the writing.

 

You dont want to support AKC but...

You purchase a dog from AKC register parents (even if the parents were dual)

You were debating on registering your male AKC

You were wondering how bad it be to register your puppies with AKC

 

You asked an anti-AKC board there thoughts on registering his dogs AKC and breeding. Why not ask his mentor?

 

That doesnt seem like a person who has a grasp on what they are saying/writing. So it makes me question the other things he written.

 

Conformation/ strict-AKC lines. I have yet to meet a "strict AKC" line. As I pointed out before there is normally other registy in the mix.

 

As a novice he might not know what he was looking at and only saw AKC #'s. I was trying to point out maybe I failed was just because all he saw was AKC # doesnt mean there werent dual register dogs. And did he say(cant look back and have to go) his girl is straight conformation line or her breeder is strict conformation?

 

If he looked at their sight yes maybe he saw CH dogs but that doesnt mean that 2 generations back there isnt another registery in there.

 

As I said before and talking with show people... I dont know if there is such a thing as a pure american show border collie yet. might be wrong but if there is would like to meet the breeder.

 

Will have to correct spelling error after school lets out...

[juliepoudrier]

You dont want to support AKC but...

You purchase a dog from AKC register parents (even if the parents were dual)

You were debating on registering your male AKC

You were wondering how bad it be to register your puppies with AKC

 

You apparently didn't read the OP's message carefully. He did not buy the AKC bitch. Someone in the family did (his daughter's husband's parents) and then decided they couldn't keep it. The OP took the dog to save it from going to the pound.

 

You asked an anti-AKC board there thoughts on registering his dogs AKC and breeding. Why not ask his mentor?

What mentor? The AHBA trainer?

 

That doesnt seem like a person who has a grasp on what they are saying/writing. So it makes me question the other things he written.

See above. I also think you don't quite have a grasp on what the OP was saying.

 

Conformation/ strict-AKC lines. I have yet to meet a "strict AKC" line. As I pointed out before there is normally other registy in the mix.

And since you haven't met it, it doesn't exist? I have met them, numerous ones in fact. Although you certainly aren't required to believe me, you limit yourself if you decide to believe only in your own admittedly limited experience, which seems to be with sport dogs (at least that's what you said).

 

As a novice he might not know what he was looking at and only saw AKC #'s. I was trying to point out maybe I failed was just because all he saw was AKC # doesnt mean there werent dual register dogs. And did he say(cant look back and have to go) his girl is straight conformation line or her breeder is strict conformation?

What he said was that he understood the difference between ABCA and AKC, had read Donald McCaig's The Dog Wars and didn't want to contribute to AKC. He also said he went to the breeder's website and that it appeared to him that the breeder's focus was on conformation breeding/showing. Since we don't know who the breeder is, I think it's certainly fair to assume that the OP is capable of judging what kind of dogs a breeder is breeding. If I go to one of the well-known sports breeder websites, I can see that the dogs are AKC registered but I can also see that the breeder's focus is on sports. Isn't it reasonable to assume that one could make a similar determination about a breeder who breeds for conformation shows?

 

For example, check out the BonniDune website. This is their dogs page. I just looked at the pedigree on one dog (Duncan) (if you click on him, then scroll down, you'll see his pedigree) and it sure looks to my like conformation-bred dogs all the way back four generations. Yes the dog has a herding title (started sheep), but I don't see how anyone could look at this website and think that the focus isn't on conformation showing. Check out Derry's pedigree as well. That one sure looks to me like strict conformation dogs all the back as far as it goes. Stewart is the same: show champion after show champion. I do see that she imported Cap from Derek Scrimgeour and is doing AKC herding trials with him. It would be interesting to know if she plans to cross him in to her show lines sometime in the future. I saw one ISDS dog and a pair that included an NASD dog and an ABC dog in two other pedigrees, four generations back. In those pedigrees, every thing else was a show champion of one sort or another. I still contend that these are show bred dogs and that the rare occurrence of some other registry doesn't make them otherwise.

 

Here's Hob Nob's accomplishments page. There are clearly AKC agility trials listed, which means that these dogs are dual-registered at the least. So she's breeding from ABCA-registered dogs who themselves may be dual registered, but whose pups are certainly being dual registered or they would be competing in AKC agility trials. This is the type of breeder your referring to who has AKC dogs but with ABCA dogs close up.

 

Can you see a difference between the two sites? Sorry I didn't have time to go look for more examples, but I think these make the point well enough. I don't think it's hard to figure out that the first breeder is a conformation breeder and the second is not, although both are producing dogs being registered by AKC.

 

If he looked at their sight yes maybe he saw CH dogs but that doesnt mean that 2 generations back there isnt another registery in there.

Aside from the ISDS dog BonniDune imported, I didn't see anything but show dogs on the pedigrees I looked at on their site.

 

As I said before and talking with show people... I dont know if there is such a thing as a pure american show border collie yet. might be wrong but if there is would like to meet the breeder.

Maybe contact BonniDune?

 

And here's another one you can contact: Majestic.

 

Granted the Majestic pedigrees only go back two generations, but definitely no ABCA dogs there. Could you honestly look at the Majestic website and argue that they are not a conformation breeder? Do you think it might just be possible that when the OP looked up his bitch's breeder he came upon a site like Majestic's and so concluded that the bitch was conformation bred?

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

Julie we arent on the same page at all.

 

When I said purchased a dog from AKC register parents I was refering to the male. That they purchased.

 

If you notice with Bonniedune her dogs go back to Aust import. So do Majestic border collies.

 

I am talking "strictly" AKC show pedigree. I dont believe there is, as of yet, such a thing.

 

And yes I could see why they would consider them strictly conformation. That still doesnt take into consideration of dual register dogs. Where all you would see is their AKC #.

 

I didnt email Majestic border collies but if you notice with the 1st dog they listed in conformation his grandparents had the short name generally used with working dogs: Moe HC, Sissy HC. I realize that both had their HC but they are from the time where they would of had to be ABCA or whatever the regristy at the time for border collie was.

 

Not trying to be a snot but I compete in AKC agility and you in USBCHA(at least I think you do, not really sure)... I agree though you MUST run into more conformation dogs then me.

 

Last year at USDDA national I ran into Bonnidune. Does that make her less of a conformation breeder? Seeing I saw and talked with her at an agility nationals?

 

I am not 100% sure how to find out where Majestic border collies keep their own dogs and was only going off of dogs they bred page.

 

Also I mention earlier that I have never met/known a strict AKC conformation dog they normally have other registery in it such as ABCA/ISDS and/or Aust imports.

 

 

You asked an anti-AKC board there thoughts on registering his dogs AKC and breeding. Why not ask his mentor?

 

What mentor? The AHBA trainer?

 

 

And maybe this is the AKC in me coming out. But what can a group of people who HAVE NEVER SEEN EITHER DOGS WORK really say about the quality of the dogs? I would go off the word of the trainer who I would assume has hand on experience with the dogs in questions then a group of people who have never met the dogs.

 

 

I am not saying he should breed his dogs! Or his dogs are breeding quality.

 

Just don't judge dog base off their registry. Or if you are going to judge at least judge both and not pick out only one.

 

ETA: Have actually found a couple of breeder who are strict AKC conformation breeders or whose dogs show no imports within the last 5generations. There really aren't that many. And their foundation stock seem to be conformation and working lines. Another one I wasn't able to find but was told "should" by now have at least 5 generations of solely AKC conformation dogs.

 

That was from me asking the experts in their field who these breeders were and they could only come up with a couple...

I did find more who breed closely to abca dogs. But had to strike them out seeing I was looking for pure AKC conformation dogs.

 

Looking it up from my phone is a pain!

[juliepoudrier]

Julie we arent on the same page at all.

 

When I said purchased a dog from AKC register parents I was refering to the male. That they purchased.

Okay, this is going to be my last attempt at this. The stud's parents don't need to be AKC registered. The OP specifically said the dog is ABCA registered. AKC has an open studbook and that means that an ABCA-registered dog can be registered with AKC. The ABCA-registered dog does not have to have AKC-registered parents to himself be registered with AKC. That's the whole point of an open studbook. I don't know how to say it more clearly. But the fact that you don't seem to understand that an ABCA- or ISDS-registered dog does NOT have to have AKC-registered parents to be registered with AKC sort of makes the rest of your pronouncements regarding conformation breeding and pedigrees suspect.

 

If you notice with Bonniedune her dogs go back to Aust import. So do Majestic border collies.

 

I am talking "strictly" AKC show pedigree. I dont believe there is, as of yet, such a thing.

I don't know how or why you're splitting hairs here. When I refer to conformation-bred dogs, which I will remind you, is what the OP *said* his AKC-registered bitch is, I mean dog bred for showing in conformation. I'm quite sure I mentioned earlier in this thread that such dogs generally go back to AUS and NZ bloodlines, as well as UK show bloodlines. I never said they were strictly AKC pedigrees but that they were conformation breeding pedigrees. Of course for any of those dogs to be shown in the US I'm pretty sure they have to be AKC registered. But the whole point was that you are claiming that AKC show dogs have working breeding blended into the lines and I said generally they do not. The sites I posted confirm my argument.

 

And yes I could see why they would consider them strictly conformation. That still doesnt take into consideration of dual register dogs. Where all you would see is their AKC #.

 

I'm still not sure what the point is you're trying to make. For one thing, anything that's a show champion CAN'T be dual-registered. ABCA doesn't allow it. You can continue to believe that the Majestic and BonnieDune (and other kennels like them) conformation show dogs are dual-registered, but I'd be willing to bet that this is not generally the case. Since you run into BonnieDune at trials, why don't you just ask and report back here?

 

I didnt email Majestic border collies but if you notice with the 1st dog they listed in conformation his grandparents had the short name generally used with working dogs: Moe HC, Sissy HC. I realize that both had their HC but they are from the time where they would of had to be ABCA or whatever the regristy at the time for border collie was.

 

So you found one set of grandparents in that entire long list of dog pedigrees that *might* have been ABCA registered? And that somehow bolsters your argument that conformation-bred dogs all have working lines close up? Then how do you explain all the other pedigrees on that page?

 

Not trying to be a snot but I compete in AKC agility and you in USBCHA(at least I think you do, not really sure)... I agree though you MUST run into more conformation dogs then me.

 

Oh silly me, I'm sure that in more than a decade of working with border collies I've never run into a conformation-bred dog, because you know the people who have brought such dogs to me for training had no real idea what their dogs were and so were talking out of their butts when they said their dogs were conformation-bred. Silly me for thinking I might have run into a conformation-bred dog or three. And I'm sorry to say that unless you're spending your time at bench shows, you're no more likely to be running into conformation show dogs than I am. But believe what you want.

 

Last year at USDDA national I ran into Bonnidune. Does that make her less of a conformation breeder? Seeing I saw and talked with her at an agility nationals?

Was she running her conformation champion dogs?

 

Also I mention earlier that I have never met/known a strict AKC conformation dog they normally have other registery in it such as ABCA/ISDS and/or Aust imports.

Well obviously since YOU have never met such a thing, it simply must not exist. The fact that I have met such a thing means nothing. Obviously I'm either crazy or a liar.

 

And maybe this is the AKC in me coming out. But what can a group of people who HAVE NEVER SEEN EITHER DOGS WORK really say about the quality of the dogs? I would go off the word of the trainer who I would assume has hand on experience with the dogs in questions then a group of people who have never met the dogs.

 

Well, in my case, as I stated clearly in my response to the OP, I was basing my comments on my personal experiences working with conformation-bred dogs. Of course since you refuse to believe that I could possibly have ever run into such a thing, you would have to discount my comments as not knowing what I'm talking about. And FWIW, I wouldn't take the word of someone who trains all breeds for AHBA regarding the working ability of either of this gentleman's dogs. As I said to him, if the trainer isn't training and trialing dogs to the highest levels, then they can't possibly know what they don't know. That would be like me dabbling in the lowest levels of agility and somehow thinking that makes me qualified to pick dogs that would likely make the national teams.

 

I'm done wasting time on this argument.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

Your right this is a waste of time!

 

I know a dog can be dual register.

 

If a breeder told me I can get either AKC papers and/or Abca papers. That must mean that he was referring to his dogs as being solely abca and for me to register the dog with AKC thru the open book policy. It would NOT mean that his dogs could possible be AKC register or possible their parents too could be dual registered since that couldn't happen! Who would do such an evil thing?! No good working breeder for sure. And since his boy is suppose to be have good lines its not possible for him to have any association with AKC.

 

You are the one who pointed out the "strict AKC/conformation " lines. I was saying there not many/any strict AKC conformation line.

 

Seeing we get to pick and choose what to read into the OP statement.

I didn't realized I was suppose to conveniently skip the offer of AKC papers for the boy and read throughly into and know exactly what strict AKC conformation line is. Seeing I didn't know there were any strict akc conformation line.

I was pointing out that conformation kennel pedigrees can be misleading and unless you know what to look for it is easy to miss the working dogs.

 

It seem that the good AKC border collies even the ones with CH in their pedigree that produce a phenomenon working dog must have working dogs in it pedigree. For all you or any of us know this dog could be a good working dog. Just because it has CH in its pedigree doesn't mean it should be instantly written off.

 

So if I get a CH on an offspring of two open level dogs, that makes it non working? And its offspring should NOT be able to work since one parent is a CH. Right?

[SS Cressa]

Maybe this is a better question...

 

Does a title really negate the breeding or lines of the dog?

[Gloria Atwater]

...... if you do not breed for working ability, and particularly if you breed for other traits (like those required for the show ring), the probability of a dog having enough of the whole "package" to be a worthwhile working dog declines very rapidly. With poor choices in breeding, that decline can be seen in just one or a very few generations. ........

 

What most people here would mean by "pure AKC" dog is one that has been produced by breeding for something other than working ability for a number of generations, probably three or more, I'd guess.

 

 

Thank you, Sue, and also Julie, for so eloquently clarifying what I was thinking.

 

In a nutshell, I've seen enough AKC show/conformation-bred border collies who visibly lack good working talent to know that something is wrong with breeding "strictly" for the conformation show ring. If Gilchrist Spot is somewhere in a show dog's family tree, great, but people have sure diluted things, since. Thus, I admit that I give short shrift to AKC-bred conformation/show border collies when considering dogs in terms of work ability.

 

I can't speak for how AKC sport border collies are bred. That topic was not touched on, when this thread began. Nor am I arguing that dual-registered dogs are less ... well, just less. Ability depends on breeding, not paperwork. But AKC conformation is not breeding for the best in working collies. With that, I bid you all good night.

 

~ Gloria

P.S.

Think I'm going to edit the word "strictly" out of my vocabulary ....

[Gloria Atwater]

Maybe this is a better question...

 

Does a title really negate the breeding or lines of the dog?

 

 

Yes. At least so far as ever registering that dog or its offspring with ABCA. To wit:

 

"Dogs ineligible for ABCA registration:

 

The ABCA is a working stockdog registry and believes that breeding for conformation standards rather than working ability is detrimental to the health and working ability of the Border Collie. Consequently dogs or bitches which have been named a "Conformation Champion" by a conformation registry are not eligible for ABCA registration, even if they otherwise meet the requirements of for registration. The ABCA will de-register any ABCA registered dog or bitch should it be named a "Conformation Champion" after January 1, 2004, and will not register the offspring of any dog or bitch named a "Conformation Champion" after that date."

 

So, of course that dog doesn't magically lose its ability to work. But ABCA at least feels strongly enough about conformation breeding and showing to bar those dogs from registry. I'm inclined to agree. It's sending the breed in the wrong direction. It's the reason I oppose AKC.

 

~ Gloria

[Alchemist]

By now I hope the OP (who seemed an eminently reasonable individual, with some proper anti-AKC tendencies) has concluded that breeding his two dogs is not the best of ideas. Either you add to AKC's coffers by registering the litter, or you raise a litter of unregistered puppies, chances that the bitch could be ROM'd (allowing the litter to be registered with ABCA) being as slim as they are.

 

I'm a little surprised (but maybe I missed it: haven't gone back through all four pages of this discussion) that no one has brought up the health benefits associated with spaying and neutering. Dogs won't develop testicular cancer if neutered, and are at less of a risk of developing prostate problems. Bitches won't develop pyometra ("septic uterus", a potentially life-threatening condition), and are at greatly reduced risk of developing mammary tumors if neutered before they've gone through more than one or two heat cycles.

 

I just read a very interesting comparison of the spay/neutering situation in Norway (where most such is banned) vs in the US (where it's commonplace). According to this article, many vets trained in the US who are practicing in Norway seem to be lamenting the situation in Norway. Not only are there the health issues I mentioned to contend with, but there are also behavioral issues that are more common in intact dogs.

 

Just something else to consider. If the OP is convinced that his dog is a future star as a working stockdog, he can always have semen collected and frozen for future use. This might be a good option if he progresses as a trainer and five or ten years from now realizes his first dog was The One.

[Heather Rae]

 

 

I just read a very interesting comparison of the spay/neutering situation in Norway (where most such is banned) vs in the US (where it's commonplace). According to this article, many vets trained in the US who are practicing in Norway seem to be lamenting the situation in Norway. Not only are there the health issues I mentioned to contend with, but there are also behavioral issues that are more common in intact dogs.

 

 

Wow, that is a really interesting article. It never occurred to me in a million years that people were actively against fixing their pets. Their argument is almost like, "We don't cut off a dogs hind legs because it could run away or get hip dysplasia." Interesting, though. I couldn't imagine not fixing my pets despite the best laid plans and high quality training I imagine that sex hormones could still win. On the other hand we don't see to many advocates for neutering people despite the fact that we suffer from many of the same ailments. Hmm.

 

Either way Tuesday has got an appointment in two weeks to be fixed. Norway might call it lazy but I rather not have to confine my dog or risk her getting pregnant.

[SS Cressa]

Isn't there risk involved with altering human females? As in it completely screws up the body?

I could see why you would consider leaving your boy unalter. But with those stats for the females. why put them through all that? 1 in 4 will get cancers. Eek! I do wonder if they are also taking into account food and environment.

[Maralynn]

Wow, that is a really interesting article. It never occurred to me in a million years that people were actively against fixing their pets. Their argument is almost like, "We don't cut off a dogs hind legs because it could run away or get hip dysplasia." Interesting, though. I couldn't imagine not fixing my pets despite the best laid plans and high quality training I imagine that sex hormones could still win. On the other hand we don't see to many advocates for neutering people despite the fact that we suffer from many of the same ailments. Hmm.

 

Either way Tuesday has got an appointment in two weeks to be fixed. Norway might call it lazy but I rather not have to confine my dog or risk her getting pregnant.

 

There are benefits/risks of both keeping your dog intact and spaying/neutering -

Here is a good article on the subject

 

Also, neutered males have a much higher risk for prostate and bladder cancer

 

So it's a subject where you need to weigh the benefits/risks and choose what you feel is best for your dog.

[Heather Rae]

There are benefits/risks of both keeping your dog intact and spaying/neutering -

Here is a good article on the subject

 

Also, neutered males have a much higher risk for prostate and bladder cancer

 

So it's a subject where you need to weigh the benefits/risks and choose what you feel is best for your dog.

Thank you for that article very informative. I certainly was not aware of many of the risks.