Ross Bash Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 i do have one more question. Why did not your friend return the bitch to the breeder? This is often the desired outcome for breeders. It soulds like she is in a good home but I am sure the breeder would want to know where she is. Pam -- I don't know the answer to that question. The pup came from our daughter's sister-in-law and brother in-law (so we know them to see them at holidays, birthday parties, etc.), but my wife generally has to remind me of their first names every time we're going to see them at some family event. It was one of those things where Sarah (our daughter) called me and asked if we would take her (the pup, not Sarah); otherwise, the pup was headed for the pound the next day. I said yes -- and the next day picked her up at my daughter's house along with her crate (the dog's crate, not my daughter's), some toys, a bag of food, and two metal bowls. She acclimated quickly and easily with our other dogs, made good friends with the cats (especially Chessie), and has been trucking along nicely ever since (she goes to work most every day with Uri and me and is absolutely nuts about retrieving tennis balls...) I did call the breeder to ask about the registration (really more to ask if she also happened to register with the ABCA, which she didn't), explained the circumstances of our now having her, asked if there were any issues about it, and left my name and phone number with her. I've never heard from her since, but I had already decided to call her back sometime later to ask her about getting rid of the restriction if Maya showed potential once she was exposed to sheep. On thinking about it more though, I decided that I needed to know more (i.e., better and more informed advice on the questions I raised in the post) before I called her back. Can't say I was all that impressed with her attitude about one of her dogs (she was a lot more unconcerned than I would be), but then again I was a stranger calling her out of the blue. As far as it being a good home -- if, after I die, I come back reincarnated as a dog (a pretty good fate in itself), I want to live right here again. Hope that answers your question; if not, let me know. Thanks, again. Ross Bash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Ross, Julie, Sue and others have given very complete replies, which I agree with, but thought that I might address a couple of small points. AKC registration: It depends on the breeder if she will lift the limited registration once you paid the extra $$ to her for breeding rights. Some breeders are very strict and really do sell their pups for pet vs. show based on how they (the breeder) views the pup's quality and the fact that they want only the best offspring from their breeding program to be represented in the breed ring and/or next generation. And then there are the breeders who will agree to allow full registration (i.e. breeding rights) for a pup sold as pet-quality once you pay them the extra $$. Again, for some breeders the idea of a breeding quality pup vs. a pet quality pup is a 'fluid concept' depending only on the amount of money that they can get for the pup. For example, I have heard several stories of people buying pet-quality AKC-registered pups (not necessarily BCs) who decide that their pet is so wonderful - for whatever reason - that they want to have puppies and since they have net yet neutered their dog and the breeder is accomodating enough to agree to change the registration status - for the extra $$ - that they get their wish. The way I view it is that this is the type of breeder who is more interested in $$ than the integrity of their breeding program. I have always had neutered pets and feel comfortable managing them, but am not sure I want to invest the extra energy to manage intact animals. (although I know that there are many people out there who will say "Huh? There's not that much extra work." and that may be so. It's just not a place I feel comfortable going.) So --- if you do not want to continue to manage two intact animals, you may want to consider spaying Maya since the odds of achieving a ROM are very slim (based on the issues discussed above). Then you would only have to manage Uri, who you have said is already registered with ABCA and is showing good working ability. You can always breed him to a proven bitch at a later time once (and if) he shows that he is worthy. (as mentioned by someone above) An alternate option would be to collect and then neuter Uri. No worries about puppies from either dog until, and if, Uri proves himself. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Russ, a big consideration to keeping Maya intact is this. What are you going to DO with her for those 3 weeks, twice a year, that she comes in season? You say you take both dogs to work: you can't do that, when she's in heat. It will drive poor Uri nuts, even if you crate him separate from her. You can't put her anywhere outside alone, even for a moment. (The local stray pit bull will be over any fence in .05 seconds.) You'll have to separate Maya and Uri completely, during that time - and expect to have Uri act like a goober, for the duration. By that I mean, whining, agitation, restlessness, more marking behaviors and oh, yeah, waking up in the middle of the night, whining, because no matter where Maya is in your house ... he can smell her. Maya herself will want to urinate frequently, may become restless and unfocussed - hormonal, in short. They won't be your relaxed and happy pals, while this is going on. And it will go that way for days. Twice a year. Every year. If anyone in your house - or anyone who comes to visit - is careless for just a moment ... all it takes is one unguarded minute, and bingo, you've got puppies. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want the headache! And my husband would kick us all out to live in the barn. Just food for thought. An intact male is a lot easier to have around than an intact bitch. In my humble opinion, anyhow. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thanks Ross, I was curious as that should be the first person contacted whenever a pup doesn't work out. It does seem like she made it into a better place than the breeder. Whatever the decision it is yours alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Bash Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Ross, Julie, Sue and others have given very complete replies, which I agree with, but thought that I might address a couple of small points. AKC registration: It depends on the breeder if she will lift the limited registration once you paid the extra $$ to her for breeding rights. Some breeders are very strict and really do sell their pups for pet vs. show based on how they (the breeder) views the pup's quality and the fact that they want only the best offspring from their breeding program to be represented in the breed ring and/or next generation. And then there are the breeders who will agree to allow full registration (i.e. breeding rights) for a pup sold as pet-quality once you pay them the extra $$. Again, for some breeders the idea of a breeding quality pup vs. a pet quality pup is a 'fluid concept' depending only on the amount of money that they can get for the pup. For example, I have heard several stories of people buying pet-quality AKC-registered pups (not necessarily BCs) who decide that their pet is so wonderful - for whatever reason - that they want to have puppies and since they have net yet neutered their dog and the breeder is accomodating enough to agree to change the registration status - for the extra $$ - that they get their wish. The way I view it is that this is the type of breeder who is more interested in $$ than the integrity of their breeding program. I have always had neutered pets and feel comfortable managing them, but am not sure I want to invest the extra energy to manage intact animals. (although I know that there are many people out there who will say "Huh? There's not that much extra work." and that may be so. It's just not a place I feel comfortable going.) So --- if you do not want to continue to manage two intact animals, you may want to consider spaying Maya since the odds of achieving a ROM are very slim (based on the issues discussed above). Then you would only have to manage Uri, who you have said is already registered with ABCA and is showing good working ability. You can always breed him to a proven bitch at a later time once (and if) he shows that he is worthy. (as mentioned by someone above) An alternate option would be to collect and then neuter Uri. No worries about puppies from either dog until, and if, Uri proves himself. Jovi Jovi -- The responses so far have pretty much been opposed to AKC registration and breeding. In fairness, this seems to be based more on the belief of Border Collie folks who have far more experience than me feeling (rightly) that the quality of breeding to maintain and preserve the working ability of the breed that ABCA represents is not represented by AKC rather than overt hostility to AKC (though I'm sure that exists). I've clearly got some work work to do in digesting and fully appreciating all of the considerations that have been shared (i.e., I've got a real plateful to digest!) before I contact the breeder again (assuming that I do rather than just going ahead and having Maya neutered). We've been through one heat with Maya already and I knew what to expect and how to deal with it, but it's not something that makes sense to deal with repeatedly absent a sound and responsible reason to do it based on her actual (rather than my hopeful or wishful) potential to not only become a good working dog, but to ultimately meet the ABCA standard for registration on merit. The responders have not been very encouraging in that regard and I need to respect the value of their altogether candid replies since it was that kind of honest advice I sought through the post. I'll keep your advice about breeders in mind though who are motivated by money rather than the quality of offspring they produce in their breeding programs. While I have no idea what makes a good show dog (and no particular interest in becoming versed in that), Maya's a great dog in my book irrespective of her herding potential; if she has that to boot, then we have a lot of good years to look forward to on that score even if she has no registration validating it on paper and no puppies in her future -- it will matter only what she can do, not who her father or mother were! Appreciated your reply! Thanks. Ross Bash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Bash Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Russ, a big consideration to keeping Maya intact is this. What are you going to DO with her for those 3 weeks, twice a year, that she comes in season? You say you take both dogs to work: you can't do that, when she's in heat. It will drive poor Uri nuts, even if you crate him separate from her. You can't put her anywhere outside alone, even for a moment. (The local stray pit bull will be over any fence in .05 seconds.) You'll have to separate Maya and Uri completely, during that time - and expect to have Uri act like a goober, for the duration. By that I mean, whining, agitation, restlessness, more marking behaviors and oh, yeah, waking up in the middle of the night, whining, because no matter where Maya is in your house ... he can smell her. Maya herself will want to urinate frequently, may become restless and unfocussed - hormonal, in short. They won't be your relaxed and happy pals, while this is going on. And it will go that way for days. Twice a year. Every year. If anyone in your house - or anyone who comes to visit - is careless for just a moment ... all it takes is one unguarded minute, and bingo, you've got puppies. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want the headache! And my husband would kick us all out to live in the barn. Just food for thought. An intact male is a lot easier to have around than an intact bitch. In my humble opinion, anyhow. ~ Gloria Gloria -- I say this tongue in cheek, but if the canine world ever has its own version of Planned Parenthood, they should hire you as their spokesperson! Biology and the perpetuation of the species are, for sure, a powerful force. I started checking Maya several times a day at six months old before her first heat, knew what to expect and what to look for, and can vouchsafe for the accuracy of your description of those three weeks of her first heat! During those three weeks, she was never out of her crate unless Uri was outside; she was never outside in the area we have fenced without one of us being there or being on a lead if we had her outside elsewhere; and she and Uri took turns going to the office (sharing the pain as it were). And no question, her need to pee more often was extraordinary, although her mood changes were slight (she's a pretty happy girl). Uri was a bit of a trip at times ("goober" is pretty accurate, although I had dim recollections of those same kinds of hormonal urges from my own distant age of puberty, so I could sympathize...) The part about sleeping in the barn also brings back a lot of good memories from my childhood! You have given me lots of good food for thought though, so thanks again! Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Planned Puppy Parenthood - the PPP! I'm actually reiterating a conversation I've had with myself, any time I've thought it might be nice to get another nice bitch to leave intact - although my Nick is still entire, himself! I've since talked myself completely out of it, for all the reasons I've mentioned. You slept in the barn when you were a child...? Cheers ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Bash Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Thanks Ross, I was curious as that should be the first person contacted whenever a pup doesn't work out. It does seem like she made it into a better place than the breeder. Whatever the decision it is yours alone. Pam -- Appreciate your followup reply, and especially your last comment. Absent an emergency, I tend to make important decisions in my own time, but once made, rarely look back. Whatever decision my wife and I make (and I'm still digesting everyone's feedback; appreciate all of it, but this blogging stuff can be something of a bottomless well, huh?), please be assured that it will be made as responsibly as it can possibly be. Thanks, again. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 During those three weeks, she was never out of her crate unless Uri was outside; she was never outside in the area we have fenced without one of us being there or being on a lead if we had her outside elsewhere; and she and Uri took turns going to the office (sharing the pain as it were). Be aware that the best laid plans for management sometimes break down. You can say "it will never happen to me, I am too careful" as much as you want, but you can't know that for sure. Accidents can and do happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Bash Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Planned Puppy Parenthood - the PPP! I'm actually reiterating a conversation I've had with myself, any time I've thought it might be nice to get another nice bitch to leave intact - although my Nick is still entire, himself! I've since talked myself completely out of it, for all the reasons I've mentioned. You slept in the barn when you were a child...? Cheers ~ Gloria Gloria -- OK -- you've got the name for it (PPP), so let's run with it 'cause I'm on board! Actually, I slept in several barns, on farmhouse front porches, camping in the woods, etc. between our small barn, my grandparents' farm and my dad's cousin's farm while growing up (spent much of each summer as well as spring and fall at one relative's farm or another and rarely slept indoors). My grandfather was still farming with horses (a Belgian and a Percheron) when I was old enough to help and my dad's cousin's farm was like something out of 19th century -- a hand pump right off the back porch, outhouse (two seater with a Sears catalog!) in the side yard, all the cooking done on a coal stove, the only running water in the house was a cold water spicket by the kitchen door, the only electricity was from battery jars in the basement, we took "showers" with buckets in the milk house -- it was great! Barn smells (livestock and fresh hay) still bring back a flood of good memories. Best wishes. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 We all love our dogs. We all think our dogs are the best. But reality is, Yes our dogs are the best in our eyes. But not the best to breed So your choice maybe the hardest choice to fix your dog. But it is the best choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Along with all the other good reasons to spay your dog I'd like to add one more...You won't have to worry about her developing pyometra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Dang, Ross! Can I please borrow your childhood? That sounds wonderful! And Percherons - how I love the big work horses. You are so blessed to have grown up with family like that, and to've had such splendid chances to be a boy. Thank you for sharing such a delightful glimpse of your boyhood. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Be aware that the best laid plans for management sometimes break down. You can say "it will never happen to me, I am too careful" as much as you want, but you can't know that for sure. Accidents can and do happen. I can attest to that; Having come home from a trial to do chores; Put our intact male in his crate. The girls were all in their respective crates. i did chores, came in the house...and there was my male and one of my females... Crate closing lessons 101... We have 2 puppies from that cross that are now 6 weeks old. Cute as all get out but I really didn't want pups at this time. The previous same way bred pupppy is doing well on sheep but we rarely breed unless we want a replacement. I've been running in open for 4 years and my husband for 3 years. We've operated our sheep farm for 9 years and my husband works full time on an operation with 2000 ewes (and just 3 border collies). Come on up to Ontario sometime, we've got some great handlers to take lessons with up here! Cynthia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 And it doesn't require two dogs loose for an unintended breeding - they can breed through the crate wires or fencing or baby gates... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemist Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Dogs have been known to open latched doors, as well. It's sort of like in Jurassic Park - they'd designed all the dinosaurs to be female, but the dinosaurs started to reproduce nonetheless. As one character remarked, "Nature will find a way". Dinosaurs today may be fantastical, but there's a lot of truth in that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am not sure why I even decided to relook at the BC boards since I have such different opinions and such different expectations from my chosen sport that I had hope to quit it. Then after signing off for almost 4 weeks I got bored and decided to look and found this thread and once again I sign in to comment since this is ridiculous. Why is that his boy breeder offer on AKC papers completely overlook and the 2nd breeder was attacked? I know of conformation breeders who breed close to ABCA lines(some even to NICE abca lines). So I am not sure why the "AKC" bitch was immediately written off. To be offer which registration to choose from AKC or ABCA for their boy, wouldnt that mean that both parents were AKC register? To get the litters paper last I look both parents had to be register... or did I miss something? Did ABCA somehow repels the bad breeder out there? Even pet people know a pedigree dog specially one with a CH in its history is worth something, that doesnt mean that they know what they are breeding. I wonder if the comments would have been the same if the OP hadnt listed the registration papers? And instead just said I have a female who is showing potential as a working dog on livestock and was wondering if it would be impossible goal to get a ROM on her for ABCA . Since I would like to breed her to my male who is ABCA and is also proving himself in herding. And to the OP. I had a long and disappointing day so sorry if this comes out wrong. But I thought you said you read the "read first". If you had what did you expect to hear from a board who is anti-AKC? That it is ok to breed you AKC bitch? Sorry maybe I lost the point of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 I am not sure why I even decided to relook at the BC boards since I have such different opinions and such different expectations from my chosen sport that I had hope to quit it. Then after signing off for almost 4 weeks I got bored and decided to look and found this thread and once again I sign in to comment since this is ridiculous. I, for one, am sorry to hear that. I always enjoy your posts (whether we agree or disagree), and the different perspective that you have to offer. Sorry for the sidetrack, I just wanted to say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Why is that his boy breeder offer on AKC papers completely overlook and the 2nd breeder was attacked? I know of conformation breeders who breed close to ABCA lines(some even to NICE abca lines). So I am not sure why the "AKC" bitch was immediately written off. To be offer which registration to choose from AKC or ABCA for their boy, wouldnt that mean that both parents were AKC register? To get the litters paper last I look both parents had to be register... or did I miss something? Did ABCA somehow repels the bad breeder out there? Even pet people know a pedigree dog specially one with a CH in its history is worth something, that doesnt mean that they know what they are breeding. Cressa, The OP said that he wanted to support ABCA and not AKC, which is why no one suggested he double register the male (if that's what you're asking). He also said the bitch was apparently from someone who breeds strictly for show, which would imply no working lines close up. AKC's open stud book means that he can double register his ABCA-registered dog with AKC. The parents don't have to be AKC; the open studbook specifically means that dogs from certain other registries will be accepted. His male is already ABCA-registered. Again, I'm not sure if that's what you're really asking. I wrote off a conformation-bred bitch based on my own experience working with conformation-bred (not working bred and dual registered) dogs. Nobody told him he couldn't try ROM with the bitch, just that the standards were very high and that he likely wasn't even in a suitable training situation to reach those standards. The underlying theme of that whole discussion is that the *owner* probably isn't experienced enough to decide that his dogs are worth breeding, no matter what their registry. I don't see how anyone can take exception to that. If I misunderstood your comments, then I apologize in advance. P.S. I'm sorry you feel you can't participate in this forum. While I don't personally agree with AKC and AKC-registration, I don't think that means that someone who does do those things can't be a valuable participant in many of the discussions here. If the breeding discussions upset you, just skip them. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted January 25, 2012 Report Share Posted January 25, 2012 Read the 3rd paragraph in the 1st post. The boy breeder offer to send in for either one. Which to me suggest the boys parents are also AKC register. Not sure how to word it. I would rather see and talk to the breeder then just assume. not sure what strict conformation means? But for me it means the breeder breeds strictly for conformation? I've known plenty strict conformation breeder that include ABCA dogs or ISDS in their lines. Or founded their kennels on ABCA dogs. ETA: Just editing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pearse Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Gloria -- The ABCA standard you cite was the one I was referring to -- and in asking how realistic it is whether a dog like Maya (though she's, of course, a Super-Dog to me!) would ever be able to qualify; the wonderful thing about hope is that, until reality proves otherwise, we can hold on to it. But if she only proves to be a good working dog (and even if she doesn't), then she'll still be a Super-Dog to me -- and that holds even if she never qualifies with the ABCA standard and thus shouldn't be bred (nor am I assuming that just meeting the ABCA standard would justify breeding her). How likely is it that your dog will meet the ABCA ROM standard? There is no way to tell until you train the dog to work livestock. Despite what anyone says, the fact that the dog is AKC registered is only pertinent if all of her ancestors are conformation-bred dogs with no stock work ability, and even then it only reduces the probability that she can work livestock. There is no way to tell if a dog can work livestock other than having the dog work livestock. That takes time and training, or money and training. The standard is high. As a rough guide, I'd say a dog being put up for ROM (registration on merit) needs to be capable of doing the level of work expected of an Open level dog. That means, at minimum a good outrun at minimum of 300 yards, capable of fetching and driving stock, capable at close in work as would be expected in penning and shedding. If both dogs aren't working at least to that level, there's no good reason to breed them. Even if they are, that's not necessarily a good reason to breed them to one another. The fact that you need to ask, probably means that you shouldn't be considering it. The fact that you ARE asking, means that you are likely sensible and considerate enough of your dogs in particular and the breed in general to give it careful thought. That's not by way of being disrespectful or dismissive on my part. It is a bit blunt but, we see a lot of people who rationalize breeding decisions based on an emotional assessment of their dog as "SuperDog" when really, it's just "Dog". Not that there's anything wrong with that especially if Dog = Border Collie as each one is special. Pearse In Lake Wobegon, Where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the Border Collies are above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Why is that his boy breeder offer on AKC papers completely overlook and the 2nd breeder was attacked? I know of conformation breeders who breed close to ABCA lines (some even to NICE abca lines). So I am not sure why the "AKC" bitch was immediately written off. To be offer which registration to choose from AKC or ABCA for their boy, wouldnt that mean that both parents were AKC register? To get the litters paper last I look both parents had to be register... or did I miss something? Did ABCA somehow repels the bad breeder out there? Hi there ~ As one of the people who responded to the OP, I thought I'd explain my own standpoint. One, Mr. Bash stated his wish to NOT support the AKC, and since his male's parents were evidently dual-registered, I found it a bit more likely that the boy has some working talent. Without seeing who is further up that ABCA family tree, it's hard to say, but the chance is there. However, he stated that his bitch is strictly AKC bred: more, she is of conformation/show lines. Thus, I felt it same to presume that while the male may actually have some good ABCA working lines in there, I think the odds of a conformation-bred AKC bitch having what it takes to achieve a ROM and get ABCA registered are very, very slim. This was simply my opinion. I tried to be as kind as I could, in stating my belief that he should reconsider breeding his two dogs. Nor did I get, from his responses, that he felt put upon. If he did, I hereby beg pardon of Mr. Bash, who has been only a gentleman throughout this discussion. Sincerely, Gloria Atwater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Just curious... How many "pure" AKC conformation line do you know? A lot of the "pure/strict" AKC conformation lines I know also have either ABCA/ISDS dogs in the background or have Aust imports. The AKC has only granted full status to the border collie I thought just recently(1995). Just curious what an pure AKC dog mean? You are going to have a hard time finding a strict conformation AKC dog. A border collie that has no other registry in its 5 generations background. Actually am curious to see if there is sucj a breeder. If you know one can you PM me? Am curious to see what they look like. I know I dont look at many conformation people sites and my interaction through them is generally agility base... so limited. The ones I do know as I stated before generally have either ABCA dogs or ISDS in their 5 generation background. Right off the top I can think of at least 2 possible 3 dogs that are dual register and used in some conformation lines. I remember reading one person website how X was pointed but she didnt want to finish him since she like him having ABCA papers(dual usage ). That was over 3 years ago, dont know who it was since I wasnt interested, heck I dont even know how I found her website to begin with. Looking at BCSA AOM I saw some ABCA open level dogs used in a varitity of AKC breeding even with some CH offspring. If those dogs are 2 generation removed does that make it an AKC line dog? Specially since they had to have AKC papers(at least I think? Dont know if you are able to have mutiple registery on an AKC litter. I know dogs can be dual register but can you have an ABCA dog breed to an AKC bitch and register the puppies as AKC?). How would you know if the dog was dual or not specially if it is the great grandfather to your pup? Say I have a dog that is dual register. If he sire an AKC litter would not it look as if he is only AKC if that is all that shows up in the pups pedigree? If that offspring has puppies. All you would see is their grandfather was AKC. and so on and so on. I would guess it would be the same for ABCA. How would you be able to tell if any of your ancestors were dual based off the pedigree? The OP choice of wording or how I am taking it makes me heistate on forming an opinion of either dogs since it screams novice owner. I dont approve of novice people breeding. But I fail to see how just because a dog has ABCA paper makes it better then an AKC dog. ABCA papers doesnt mean the breeder had a breeding goal. Or that the breeding was any better then AKC. Specially since according to this board he was also associated with AKC. I dont know the breeder but whats to say he wasnt in the puppy making business? and not caring what he produced? ETA: hoping it make sense. sometimes my poor spelling makes me laugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 An AKC-registered animal can not then be registered with ABCA, but an ABCA (or ISDS) animal can be registered with AKC. AKC's stud books for the Border Collie are open. Those for ABCA and ISDS are not open to AKC or KC-registered animals (or animals of unknown or unregistered parentage), unless a dog can qualify through the Registration on Merit (ROM), proving its worth as a working dog. You've been on these boards long enough to have seen topics that point out that if you do not breed for working ability, and particularly if you breed for other traits (like those required for the show ring), the probability of a dog having enough of the whole "package" to be a worthwhile working dog declines very rapidly. With poor choices in breeding, that decline can be seen in just one or a very few generations. That is why, even though there are people who purchase (or use the services of) working-bred ABCA and/or ISDS dogs to use in breeding choices that are not based on producing pups of working ability, there are so many dogs that have not been bred for working ability that still have working-bred animals in fairly recent generations. As for AU/NZ imports, since virtually all Border Collies imported from those two countries come from show-bred lines (that have been show-bred for many generations), they are usually as pure conformation lines as you can find. In fact, the Kennel Club (and the AKC) based its original show standards on those in Australia because that is where the majority of the KC Border Collie lines originated, at least the successful show lines. What most people here would mean by "pure AKC" dog is one that has been produced by breeding for something other than working ability for a number of generations, probably three or more, I'd guess. And, if its pedigree went back to AU/NZ lines, as many of the more well-known conformation/show breeders lines do, that would be many more generations. Just because AKC can, like a whirlpool, suck in ABCA/ISDS working-bred dogs because of their open registry; just because there are people who don't think there is an issue with dual-registration and working with the AKC; and just because people don't care if they sell on ABCA/ISDS-registered dogs to folks who will register with AKC, doesn't make it beneficial for the future of the working Border Collie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 26, 2012 Report Share Posted January 26, 2012 Cressa, You admit you're talking largely about sport dogs and I think it's fair to say that many of those are indeed of mixed (AKC/ABCA) lineage, and I'd guess that in many cases the AKC registration came about as a result folks dual registering to compete in AKC sports and then just continuing to register with AKC. If they bring in working line dogs, those dogs would need to be dual-registered first (I think) so they all look like AKC dogs on paper when in fact they're not (at least from a lineage standpoint). I have no doubt that some (maybe many) of those dogs have good working lines up close. But those dogs are not generally the dogs you see making a big name for themselves in the breed show ring. Strict conformation lines are those based on the dogs who were originally imported into this country for conformation showing. Most of those dogs go back to Australian and New Zealand genetics, with some UK show genetics included as well. The dogs I have worked with are dogs who are strictly show dogs, no ABCA mixed in anywhere, because obviously that sort of mixing isn't likely to gain the breeder anything in the *show ring*. It's a completely different world than AKC dogs that are being used for sport and the like, which seems to be the world you're coming from. (In other words, I think you're equating comments about conformation-bred with AKC-registered, when I think those are two entirely different things, even though obviously both sets of dogs are registered with AKC, they don't necessarily share a lot of, if any, genetics.) In answer to your question regarding breeding an ABCA dog to an AKC bitch and registering the puppies, I suspect (but that's something you'd have to check with AKC) that the dog would first have to be dual registered with AKC so that both parents had AKC numbers and then the pups could also be AKC registered. In other words, although the AKC stud book is open, I suspect that they wouldn't register pups from parents that both didn't have AKC registry numbers, but I don't know if they'd do so after the fact, so to speak (that is, accept a dual registration on the sire after the pups are born so that the pups could then be AKC registered). It seems to me that if an owner wanted to be able to register pups with AKC they'd first make sure that both stud and bitch were registered, which I imagine is just a matter of providing the ABCA papers and paying your money. They could never be ABCA registered unless the bitch was able to obtain ABCA registration on merit. At any rate, I always qualify my statements by saying conformation-bred or show-bred for that reason--to differentiate those dogs from other AKC-registered dogs whose bloodlines are a mix of registries or that simply aren't strictly geared toward conformation showing. It also the reason that whenever someone says something like "show dogs can and do compete in the open level at USBCHA trials" I always ask if these are dual-registered dogs (generally the case) or strictly conformation lines. As I noted earlier, the dogs I have worked with that are from strictly show lines don't have working-bred dogs up close in their pedigree and generally don't have working bred dogs in their pedigrees at all. They are *not* the same thing as dogs who have been AKC registered for a generation or two but are a mix of dogs from show and working lines or are in fact working line dogs (of one sort or another) that have been dual registered but have never been shown and were never intended to be shown. That's not to say some won't be able to get a conformation championship, but just that the conformation Ch criterion is not the main one being used in making breeding choices. One of the first AKC conformation dogs I ever worked was trying to get points (don't remember exactly what) and so had a friend of hers enter a working-bred dog in the class to fill it out. Her dog was a merle (not a popular color when it comes to winning shows), and the other dog was a split-face black and white, good amount of coat, and sort of airplane ears. The filler dog won the class, so in that case, yes, a working bred dog was placed. I'm not saying it's impossible. But as with anything, people who want to win concistently in the show ring are going to breed to and buy from show ring winners, and those dogs generally aren't dogs from mixed lines. As for the OP, I took him on his word that his bitch came from a conformation breeder. I also took him on his word that he had no wish to get in bed with the AKC. Those two statements made by him mean that his choices are limited (practically non-existent) when it comes to breeding his bitch and registering pups. He'd have to ROM the bitch with ABCA and as Pearse noted, the ROM process means that the dog needs to be doing open-level (USBCHA) work. It's a rare novice handler who is going to take a first dog and train it to open level, and those who do are usually starting with top-notch working genetics. And yes, the owner is a novice who has never trained working dogs, which is why some of us commented that he probably didn't have the experience to judge the working abilities of either dog, especially not in such early days of training. P.S. What is AOM? J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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