Border Collie "Types"

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

She has no tail and I really don't know if she is a different kind of BC.

This is the sort of thing you need to know about a breed before you become a breeder. It's not really becoming a "grandfather" (although you wouldn't want a human daughter to produce children just for fun either). There are a BUNCH of unwanted Border collies already out there - only those who really know the Border collies inside and out should be breeding.

 

Here is an explanation: http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...ic;f=1;t=008029

[Sophia D]

Thanks for the info.

I am really new at this forum, and to be honest, I do not consider myself a breeder. I just love BC and I will like to see newborns from Sophia.

 

Maybe I am in the wrong forum. We (my wife and I) just enjoy our life with Sophia. I became a member to know more about BC and I promise I will more about it.

 

Sorry again.. but Sophia newborns are not going to be a BUNCH of unwanted BC... and ... I will become a Grandfather !!! not a Breeder

[Lunar]

I do not think you are in the wrong forum - I just think you're a little new to the BC world.

 

The problem with "Just one litter" is that, honestly, that's how most dogs end up in the shelters. From "just one litter." It's like "just one piece of trash" thrown out the window... all those "one"s end up to form a whole lot of puppies.

 

Are you going to keep EVERY one of Sophia's pups? If not, will you be prepared to take them all back if the new owners are unprepared/unable to handle them in the future? If something comes up? Are you going to be able to afford a c-section (which can run in the thousands) for Sophia if, god forbid, something goes wrong with the birth? ARe you willing to risk losing her if something goes very wrong?

 

I see you're from Puerto Rico - most of us here are speaking from a US/Canadian viewpoint, so some of it might not apply. I don't know what your situation is with dogs down there. But up here, there are SO MANY dogs - including border collies - in shelters. Tons and tons. How they got there... well, it depends. Some have behavioral problems. Some of their owners moved. Some, especially the BCs, were simply too much dog for their unsuspecting owners to handle. So many people get a dog from an ad in the newspaper, from some backyard breeder (which is what you would be classifed as, sorry to say), who didn't check the adopters thoroughly enough, or a petstore which don't care who buys a puppy. So that's why we up here just don't want people adding MORE puppies to the mix, unless they're 100% top-grade herding dogs (which obviously are required to continue the breed!). For every puppy that is brought into the world and finds a home, that is one less home for a dog in a shelter, who will probably be put to death.

 

About the grandfather/breeder... as much as we like to consider ourselves parents, and view our dogs as kids, they are still dogs, not humans. So technically, yes, you would be a breeder if you bred your dog. As I mentioned earlier, you would be a "backyard breeder" - which is one who does not do health checks, herding trials and/or herding work, etc. I know so many people out there love their dogs so much that they want a puppy (or more) of the same bloodline. But - and I'm sure others will have more examples - you are not likely to get any puppies like your dear Sophie. Offspring or not, every dog is very unique. If you love her, and love the breed, why not try to find another dog - another BC - who needs a good home? It truly is a wonderful feeling to help out one in need.

[Falcon]

Breeding dogs, even once, makes you a breeder.

 

Here's a thread you might want to check out about breeding/breeders/etc. There is a TON of good info in that thread.

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...c;f=11;t=000008

 

As well as...

http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...1058;p=1#000010

They wanted to have offspring from their beloved pet too.

[juliepoudrier]

Originally posted by Willikers:

So nobody else thinks that the lovely Sophia is an Aussie? I have an Aussie boy that looks like her twin but I am too technically challenged to post a photo. Looks like a fine specimin of Aussie to me.

Willikers,

She looks very aussie to me, but it seems that Jose disagrees.

 

Jose,

How do you know Sophia is a border collie? Do you have registration papers for her? I ask because she really does look like an Australian shepherd, especially if you consider the docked tail. Her looks and docked (?) tail don't mean she's not a border collie, but the two breeds are difficult enough to distinguish without, say, working them on livestock and observing them closely, so I'm curious as to why you're sure she's a border collie and not something else. Your original post asking about different types leads me to believe that you don't have a lot of experience with border collies or the border collie culture, so I still wonder how you know she's a border collie?

 

I'll leave the discussion of breeding to others here. I'll say only that we all understand that you will do whatever you want, but I hope you will take the comments of the people on these boards in the spirit they were given.

[Sophia D]

I do really appreciate all your comments. I do have papers for Sophia that states she is a BC. Mi initial questions was to clarify if there are different types of BC. I was told that there are different kinds.

 

In regard to the breeding issue, I don't see that kind of problem in PR. In fact sophia's puppies will remain within our family

[Caroline]

I believe there are many street dogs in Puerto Rico, am I wrong about that? Will all of Sophie's puppies be spayed/neutered? That is THE ONLY WAY to guarantee that there will be only one litter that results from your choice of breeding her. Please wait and research more.

Caroline

[Sophia D]

Thanks Caroline.

Jose

[Claire Owen]

She certainly is a gorgeous dog, I can see why you would want to share her with your family! But I do share the same concerns about unwanted pups.

She was an adorable puppy too, very nice pictures!

 

Claire

[Allie Oop]

Jose, when you asked about " types " of Border Collies I assumed you wanted to know about variations in ear position, coat length, etc.

 

There are BCs with both ears that stick up that are "prick-earred", there are others with one ear up and one ear down, others with tip-tilted ears and some with ears that are mostly in a down position. Coat lengths also vary from short smooth coats to medium long to very long. The thickness also varies. Color is one of the most varied things about BCs and they come in a multitude of colors. (My own BC is a tri-color). This is a link that covers a lot of the variety of the Border Collie.Border Collie Museum - Diversity

 

Sophia is very beautiful and I love her red color. She does appear to have several characteristics of an Australian Shepherd (her docked tail, her size - she's a bit bigger than the average female BC). If you have her papers, then you would know best -- we've only seen her lovely picture.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

When you breed an animal, it should be for a good reason. You are very welcome here, but it must be said that your possible pleasure at seeing puppies is not a good reason for breeding.

 

Why? you are saying? Doesn't she exist for my pleasure anyway?

 

Well, possibly - I suspect there's little other reason to keep a sheep herding dog in a city in Puerto Rico. However, have you considered that you may get much more pain from the process and possibly lose the dog you say you love?

 

Border collies aren't good breeders in general. There's breeds that have much better luck at it.

 

Read this story again: http://www.bordercollie.org/cgi-bin/ultima...1058;p=1#000010

 

That is NOT unusual. Border collies are edgy, weird dogs - my own Ben's grandmother habitually ate her puppies if they didn't stop her.

 

Then they had to feed the little things by hand - only half usually lived.

 

How would it feel to hold one of your "grandchildren" in your hand and watch the little thing die?

 

This is why you don't breed Border collies without good reason. A good reason is if your dog is an excellent sheepdog.

 

Does she do well moving your sheep around? Have you done reasonably well in trials? If both are true you would have no problem finding a "husband".

 

And you'd be less likely to breed a dog that will produce unhealthy, fearful, aggressive, or genetically unsound puppies (all these are MAJOR problems in Border collies that are bred for no good reason).

 

Sophia is lovely but there are lots of lovely Border collies out there. Please don't breed her and just enjoy what she offers as a beautiful and loyal companion, not a puppy producer.

[Sophia D]

Thanks for you advice Rebecca.

 

Remember, I am totally new at this. Is it true that if I don't let sophia become a mother at least once she may experience helath problems like cancer, etc ?

 

In regard to Sophia papers, it says she is a Border Collie. She might be an Australian Shepard, I really don't know. Her ears are always in down position

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You are quite welcome, Jose.

 

It is absolutely NOT true that Sophia has to have puppies to remain healthy. Quite the opposite. Spaying her will reduce her chances of developing cancer of the reproductive organs.

 

If she is not spayed she can also be at risk for serious life-threatening infections that can result from heat cycles, whether she is bred or not.

 

You might be thinking of cats - an intact female cat needs to be bred to remain healthy. This is NOT true of dogs. And we fix this problem in cats by spaying the female!

 

I've had numerous female dogs that have never had puppies, usually because I had them spayed. I just took my 13 year old female to the vet (spayed when she was six months old) and the vet could not believe how old she was!

 

Maggie has the health of a four year old dog - in part because she's never had the stress of heat cycles and raising puppies!

 

The only real way to tell whether your dog is purebred Border collie, since her looks can go either way, is to work her on sheep. It is not usual to bob the tail in a Border collie, especially in those who are selling to pet homes. Her face looks very Australian shepherd. Her build reminds me more of an Australian shepherd, being more blocky (the puppy picture looks just like a friend's puppy - very nice Aussie!).

 

Some breeders will fake papers to cover up a litter that happens accidentally - maybe not your pup's breeder, but a breeder of HER parents.

 

This would all make me very hesitant to breed even a dog that was good on sheep. Australian shepherds have some unique problems that I wouldn't want to pop up in the puppies - your pups could end up being nothing like either of the parents, taking after their own grandparents.

 

Australian shepherds are nice dogs but it would not be a nice surprise if you thought you were making Border collie puppies and you got Aussie puppies instead!!

 

If Sophie's health is your main concern then you can set your mind at ease. She is at much greater risk if you DO breed her. Others with more experience can address that but there's many ways you could end up losing your dog through problems with the pregnancy and birth.

 

Speaking of health, before you bred Sophie, you'd have to do an awful lot more research on her pedigree. You need to have assurances that her parents, and her parents' parents, were all sound in body and mind, and capable of working long and hard. Then you need to find out the same on the dog you want to use as a sire. We have no formal way to record or enforce health certifications on our breeding stock, so it's all up to you to find out whether Sophie's future pups would be at risk for Collie Eye, hip dysplaysia, epilepsy, PRA, hearing problems, overheating problems, soft tissue weaknesses, and numerous other things that you'd only find out by knowing the lines.

 

It would be a really sad thing to bring pups into the world and then have to have some of them euthanized because of severe hip dysplasia. Or puppies that can't play frisbee because they have Collie Eye and can't see. Remember that in most of these conditions, Sophie can carry the gene and pass it on without having the disease herself. There's a test for Collie Eye but it's not cheap. there's no test for hip displaysia other than knowing the lines and that's not 100%.

 

Well, I can see you are thinking about it and I don't want to overwhelm you! Happy Memorial weekend!

[Sophia D]

Thanks Rebecca !!!

[muddy bob]

Hello Jose,

Every one of the five spayed females I've owned has lived well beyond thirteen years.

Your girl's a beauty.

 

muddy

[Beth G]

In my opinion, the risks of not spaying your female are not worth it unless you are a proffesional breeder.

 

One whole summer, I volunteered at a vet's.The awful things I saw...let me tell you. They will stay with me forever!

 

We ended up a couple times spaying a pregnant female due to the owner lying, or their just not knowing she was pregnant, as they had let her run loose and get bred.. it made me cry seeing those little pups in there.

 

Another couple times we had dog's come in with infected uterus'- all avoidable if only the owner had spayed their dogs.

[ErinKate]

Jose welcome to the boards! Sophia is a pretty pretty girl. My first thought as well was Aussie, but hey, who am I to say.

I would just like to say, as it has been said on here many times before, to love the breed is to protect and preserve it.

BCs are a working breed. Has your dog shown any working ability? That is the #1 trait wanted in a BC. This is what people breed for. It is more than just having a pretty dog.

Do you have any reason why you wouldn't spay yours, and if your family wants dogs, go adopt from BC rescue, or another rescue organization. That is the most responsible thing to do for someone new to the breed. It will help give more beautiful dogs homes. Imagine if a pretty gal like Sophia was sitting in a rescue kennel. There are more. I adopted 2 BCs, and they are the best! (one is the picture under my name)

Please please reconsider breeding that dog. I think you are being a bit foolish/irresopnsible (excuse me) for jumping into a breed you know nothing about, and breeding. Family pets are great, let her be just that.

[Joe Anne]

HI Jose, Over the years, I too have had all of my (many) females spayed and all have lived to 14-15 yrs old. I also have my males neutered.

Hopefully Ak Dog Doc will chime in on this discussion. We all count on her for very sound medical "advice".

I too understand the feeling of wanting offspring from an incredible dog... but the right thing (although sometimes hard, being the humans we are), is to have your Sophie spayed.

They are so much happier & healthier, as they grow up, and you will not have to worry about the mess of heat, and the possiblilty of who knows who becoming her "husband". It can happen in a nano second, and when she goes in heat, you can bet all the male dogs in the area WILL know! fer shur!

She is a very beautiful girl, and we sooo welcome you on our boards.

Please know, that we all have varied opinions and personalities, BUT, everyone here (like you) loves our dogs and everyone else's dogs too. You may as well count on getting some serious feedback on certain issues and sometimes it will get you a bit on the angry side (maybe even a lot on the angry side, but it is usually ment in good spirit).

In any case, you are in the right place to learn about BC's in particular and dogs in general! PS.. Sophie looks alot like one of my students, who looks alot like a BC, but is an Aussie,

(cept my student is black & white). The biggest difference I see in her (my student), and BC's is her stockiness, weight and the cropped tail. She sure fooled me when she was only about 12 wks old, and started her training with me! I even remember approaching her human Mom, and saying, aaaaaw, you have a Border Collie!... and Mom said No she is an Aussie!!! hmmmm, coulda fooled me and she DID! She is now 1 yr old and there is no doubt at all. She is a very beautiful black and white Aussie, yep she is!

Pats to beautiful Sophie!!! and once again

WELCOME