Advice on some issues for a first time owner?

[Lereas]

Summary: Lab/BC mix with maybe other stuff in there, very smart, but resource guarder and barker at people out window and children. Looking for best threads dealing with these behaviors, or any specific advice.

 

My wife and I talked about getting for a number of years, and finally started looking in earnest. We checked all the shelters because we wanted a rescue dog. She wanted a golden retriever, but we didn't find any, and really never found "our dog"

 

Then, a week later, we saw an adorable little pup on petfinder at a nearby rescue. We spoke with the foster owner and were told that she was "half black lab, half golden retriever." Loving her cute face and funny sounds when she was sleeping, and finally being ready, we took her home.

 

As time went on, we saw more and more signs that she may not have any golden in her at all. She has double dewclaws, which the vet suggested may be from a newfie...and that she's 65lbs at 10 months suggests it may be.

 

That said, more and more, everything about her temperament points to her having a significant amount of border collie in her. She's extremely intelligent. We got her one of those "treat puzzles" called a "treat tornado" or something, and even though it's classified as hard and explains you have to introduce it to your dog slowly so they understand it, I just filled it with food and put it down in front of her. Within 3 minutes she had solved/emptied the whole thing.

 

I take her for a walk of about two miles every evening, except days when she goes to doggy daycare and is too tired for it. Alternately, I take her to a big open field and just run around with her for 20-30 minutes. I'm pretty sure this is enough exercise, as she's always panting when we finish either one, and flops down on the carpet to rest when we get home.

 

Despite her intelligence, she's still a pup, and she uses her smarts to realize she can be bad. Here are my major issues, and I was hoping that you guys could tell me the best way to deal with them, or point me to the best threads dealing with them.

 

1. Resource guarding. We got her when she was about 3 months old, and I do not think she was properly weaned, and who knows what happened when she was feeding. She eats her food as if there is no tomorrow. If you put your hand near her head or food while she is eating, she will freeze and growl and sometimes snap at you. At the advice of the trainer we were using when we first got her, we fed her all food by hand slowly for the first week...then two weeks...then three weeks....she never got better. Now we feed her off a baking sheet just so she eats slowly. The trainer suggested free feeding as a solution, but the night we decided to try it, she ate two FULL bowls of food and wanted more, and then was sick for two days with vomiting and diarrhea. I was afraid to let her eat more, though I'm wondering if we let her keep going if it might have worked.

 

She'll usually trade toys for high-value treats without much of a problem, so it's -usually- just a problem with food.

 

2. Barking out the window (house or car). Even if we close the shades, she uses her nose to push them aside and looks out the window. Anytime someone walks by, she goes nuts, barking at them for about 10 seconds, and then no matter where we are in the house, she runs to us making a weird growl/whine/whimper sound. We've taken to telling her NO! when she starts barking, getting between her and the window, making her sit and down, and then rewarding her as she goes down and calms, but she still insists on barking. Similarly, if we're in the car with her, she'll bark at anyone that comes close to us, be it people walking if we're at a stop light or gas station, or a person on a motorcycle. I am hoping she never figures out that there are people inside cars.

 

This may be general guarding behavior for what she sees as her property, or our property, or it may be a desire to play, as her tail is almost always wagging when she barks, and it is usually not a truly aggressive sounding bark. We have to restrain her when someone is at the door, and I'm not sure how we're doing to deal with Halloween.

 

Any suggestions on preventing this? We want her to be able to bark at an intruder, but not at every person who walks on our sidewalk.

 

3. Barking at people in the house, or at people at their house. We've had guests over, and after about 15 minutes of them being there, she'll calm down and relax. Even then, though, if someone stands up to go get a drink or something, she again freaks out and starts barking again. She does the border collie "push" with her head, though for people who don't know it's coming, they jerk away when she starts moving toward them. We try to let her get adjusted to people slowly, or to ignore her, but it's not working very well. That said, we don't have a whole lot of guests over, so she doesn't get a ton of practice with it.

 

4. Barking at kids. When we're on walks, she'll often bark at kids that she sees. Granted, most of these are 8 year olds screaming PUPPY!!! and running full tilt right at her, so I don't blame her for being spooked. Or gangly high schoolers on scooters going up and down the block. That said, I'd like her to be better at ignoring things going on around her in general.

 

 

All in all, she's a beautifully behaved dog when it's just the three of us at the house. She is still working on heeling all the time, but she will do sit and down and leave it and stay 95% of the time, though we're still working on a solid recall. Mostly she responds to "Molly, Come get a cookie!", though if it's just a matter of more words as a replacement for "come", it doesn't bother me too much.

 

She completed her puppy classes and earned the STAR PUPPY award with flying colors, but unfortunately in her next set of lessons she encountered a dog that bothered her and she couldn't concentrate the whole time we were there for weeks. We take her once a week to doggy daycare for the day, and we've asked the people who run it and they say that she is well behaved and doesn't fight or anything.

 

 

 

I know there are already some threads here on a few of these subjects, but I was hoping you guys could point me to the very best of them, rather than trying to dig through years of stuff, and possibly see if you had any insight into how to train her best based on the combination of things she's displaying.

 

Thank you!

[MaryP]

There's a lot going on here and I think your best bet is to get help from a good trainer. You have a dog with guarding and fear aggression issues. You want to get a handle on these issues as soon as possible because they will only get worse the longer she practices them. Reading some threads won't be enough. You need hands on help from a good trainer who has experience with behavior issues. In the meantime, you could do yourself a lot of good by educating yourself on dog behavior and how to interpret canine body language. A book that I really like is "The other end of the leash." It's a good book for teaching the basics about dog behavior and why dogs do the things they do. Another good book for reactive dogs like yours is "Control Unleased." There is a DVD called "Calming Signals" that is good, too. There's lots of other resources out there and I'm sure that others will suggest some of their favorites. But, get a good hands-on trainer. Your dog has already given you some warning signs that she finds some things to be scary and/or overstimulating. You don't want her to progress from barking to biting, because biting is the next step.

 

As far as how to handle Halloween, crate your dog in another room, preferably far away from the front door. Give her a nice bone or chewy to occupy herself.

 

Oh, also, Google "Nothing in Life is Free." This approach can be very effective at helping to correct problem behaviors.

[Lereas]

Thank you! I've got myself in contact with the obedience club in town that also does sporting/agility type things, and hopefully there is someone there with experience with BCs and willing to work with us.

 

A lot of people say "oh, well, she's just a puppy..." but I know better than to think that her behavior is acceptable.

 

I'm trying my best for us to be great owners, so thanks for the resources that will help us with this. When Molly barked at a kid and the dad of the kid looked frightened, it was possibly the worst feeling that I've ever felt in my life, realizing that my dog that I love makes him fear for the safety of his child. That said, anytime they interview someone who owns a dog that bit someone they say "oh, I never imagined that fido would bite someone!" so I have no illusions that it's possible no matter how much you think it won't happen.

 

I'll keep trying to find a good trainer. In your opinion, what is a reasonable per-lesson cost with someone who truly knows what they're doing?

[BorderlineCrazy(:]

...I'm trying my best for us to be great owners...

 

The fact that you're actually looking for good advice is more than most owners do.

 

Also, do you know what defines a "good" trainer? It's possible that you may be looking at the wrong type of trainer...just a thought.

[PSmitty]

Mary's advice is spot on. Where are you located, in case any of us can recommend a trainer?

[Lereas]

I'm in Memphis, TN.

 

We started with a trainer recommended by our veterinarian. She has had show dogs and gives lessons in a large photo studio with a ton of room for all the dogs. Molly did very well with the first series of six when it was just her and another dog, but when there were more dogs she found it very hard to concentrate because she wanted to play all the time and not learn. She spent the entire lessons panting very hard, taking treats hard, etc. She really did seem to know what she was doing, but it just wasn't the ideal setting. I became a little upset when the last three hour sessions we went to, she basically just had us put molly in down-stay for almost the entire hour, trying to calm her down. She never calmed down the entire time, and didn't learn anything else.

 

We've since called up the Shelby County Obedience Club, recommended to me by a woman I saw while walking. This lady had FIVE BCs off leash, all of whom were acting totally controlled and friendly.

 

The SCOC has beginner classes registration coming up, and though they probably focus on the main commands, being in that setting with trainers from an obedience club that probably have dealt with these things before may help.

[MaryP]

She spent the entire lessons panting very hard, taking treats hard, etc.

 

This is a sign of stress. It was probably more than your dog was ready for at this stage. A traditional obedience class is probably not what you need, or are ready for, right now. In obedience classes, they are going to focus on teaching basic obedience commands. You need a trainer that will help you develop a behavior modification program for your dog. If you can't get one-on-one training, then look for a "reactive dog" class or a Contol Unleashed class. In these classes, the focus will be on working toward changing your dog's reaction to various stimuli and on desensitising her to the things that cause her to react inappropriately. Ideally, a vet behaviorist would be best. Not because there aren't great behavior modification trainers out there, but because it's not always easy to know if the trainer you selected has the skills that you need. At least with a vet behaviorist, you know that they have met some standard of knowledge and training and will most likely have the skillset to help you. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there are any certified vet behaviorists in your area. It looks like the closest one is in Knoxville.

 

ETA: A good start might be to contact West Tennessee Border Collie Rescue and ask if they can recommend a trainer in your area. They are probably going to be very knowledgeable about who would be the best trainer to work with your particular dog's issues.

 

www.tnbordercollierescue.com

[Lereas]

As much as I love my dog, driving seven hours across the state every week or so is not really an option for me.

 

I'll see if anyone at the club has experience in behavior modification.

 

That first trainer suggested a month of doing it with some kind of medication. What are your thoughts on this? She said it's pretty common, but dosing her up just didn't sit well with me. That said, if a month of having her on "doggy downers" or whatever and consistent training will rid her of these issues, I'd probably be okay with it.

 

 

While the classes perhaps were overwhelming, I guess we felt that because she learned so quickly how to sit and down and such just with us training her (and not being professionals whatsoever) that she could handle it.

 

 

As an example of both her intelligence and obsession with food, here's a video of her emptying out her puzzle thing.

[shysheperdess]

I would definetly recomend this obedience club...nothing can beat years of experience training/working with dogs. Good trainers usually are not only succesful themselves with there dogs, but are creative problem solvers who have worked with and helped hundreds of dogs...

 

I know the trainer who is my mentor has taught me SO MUCH and is so highly respected in the dog community..she has helped hundreds of owners get on the right track with there dogs and she has over 40 years experience training...hopefully you will find a good fit!!

[Lereas]

 

ETA: A good start might be to contact West Tennessee Border Collie Rescue and ask if they can recommend a trainer in your area. They are probably going to be very knowledgeable about who would be the best trainer to work with your particular dog's issues.

 

www.tnbordercollierescue.com

 

 

Just sent an email to the contacts on that site. Thank you for the suggestion! Hopefully if the obedience club can't help, the people at the rescue will know someone.

[SecretBC]

She is the age right now when SO MANY young & energetic dogs get surrendered to shelters. It is a trying time and I applaud you for putting so much effort into this when there are a lot of people who would just give up.

 

Loved the video, she is definitely a bright one.

 

Much of this is a stage. If not addressed some behaviors can get worse, but if handled properly you should be able to extinguish them.

 

Absolutely get a handle on the resource guarding issue. That food bowl belongs to you. I wouldn't let her have one single meal with free access to that bowl until the guarding behavior is gone. If you don't want to hand feed her meals (which can be done through training sessions as well), I would stand with my feet touching her bowl as she eats and periodically back her away from it and ask her to sit (and make eye contact) before releasing her to eat again. I saw you asked her to sit before she got the puzzle in your video, but she completely released herself -- that needs to change. She should not be allowed to touch the food until you say okay. And she needs to stop eating when you say to. If she snaps at you I would take the food away entirely. Too bad so sad. You control the food, not her.

 

More exercise could help the barking out the window at home issue -- If she's sleeping, she can't bark at people. She's looking out the window because she's bored and looking for something exciting. With my Lab/Shepherd, I honest to god ran him into the ground when he was younger because when he was awake and not engaged, he was a menace. So every morning we would play frisbee or chuck-it, we'd bike to work (1.5 miles), play midday, bike home, he'd go to the barn with me after work and run around the whole time and then we'd play frisbee or chuck-it again when we got home. It was the only way I survived the first two years of his life, he was VERY full of energy.

 

In the car I suggest a crate, then cover that crate with a blanket so that she can't see and be overstimulated. You can start to lift the cover when she learns to ride quietly, but as soon as she makes any noise that cover needs to go back down again.

 

My dogs don't care for kids either, so I'm not much help there. I just avoid places where I know there will be lots of children and I watch like a hawk to make sure none come running up to us. I'm very good at saying, "No" when I get asked if they can pet my dogs. Because my dogs have learned that I will watch out for them and not let the screaming small humans run up to them, they are far less reactive and the growling/barking has more or less stopped.

[Lereas]

She is the age right now when SO MANY young & energetic dogs get surrendered to shelters. It is a trying time and I applaud you for putting so much effort into this when there are a lot of people who would just give up.

 

We've got no intention of surrendering her, regardless of if we can't fix this. If it truly came down to it, we would find new owners for her ourselves.

 

Loved the video, she is definitely a bright one.

 

Much of this is a stage. If not addressed some behaviors can get worse, but if handled properly you should be able to extinguish them.

 

Yeah, it's difficult trying to differentiate what's just "puppy stuff" and what are truly troubling behaviors

 

Absolutely get a handle on the resource guarding issue. That food bowl belongs to you. I wouldn't let her have one single meal with free access to that bowl until the guarding behavior is gone. If you don't want to hand feed her meals (which can be done through training sessions as well), I would stand with my feet touching her bowl as she eats and periodically back her away from it and ask her to sit (and make eye contact) before releasing her to eat again. I saw you asked her to sit before she got the puzzle in your video, but she completely released herself -- that needs to change. She should not be allowed to touch the food until you say okay. And she needs to stop eating when you say to. If she snaps at you I would take the food away entirely. Too bad so sad. You control the food, not her.

 

She usually eats from a baking dish to slow her down. I'll occasionally put my hand in it, and if she growls I take the food away for a little bit. I haven't been consistent with that, because I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do, and if it could cause her to reinforce her idea that we might take her food away so she has to eat it quickly. She always sits before she gets anything, and she knows it. Before she gets out of the kennel, before she gets food or treats, etc. If I had told her stay she would have stayed, but if she just sits to get a reward, when the reward is offered (in this case put down) she goes for it. I might work on making her auto-stay in cases like this, though, so thanks for the suggestion.

 

More exercise could help the barking out the window at home issue -- If she's sleeping, she can't bark at people. She's looking out the window because she's bored and looking for something exciting. With my Lab/Shepherd, I honest to god ran him into the ground when he was younger because when he was awake and not engaged, he was a menace. So every morning we would play frisbee or chuck-it, we'd bike to work (1.5 miles), play midday, bike home, he'd go to the barn with me after work and run around the whole time and then we'd play frisbee or chuck-it again when we got home. It was the only way I survived the first two years of his life, he was VERY full of energy.

 

That's my usual solution...I tire her out so she doesn't even have her head up to look out the window. That said, I'd really like her to be able to watch stuff outside without freaking out.

 

In the car I suggest a crate, then cover that crate with a blanket so that she can't see and be overstimulated. You can start to lift the cover when she learns to ride quietly, but as soon as she makes any noise that cover needs to go back down again.

 

Sort of the same thing here. Aside from humans being close to the windows, she's totally fine and loves riding in the car. When she was even younger, we drove 7 hours straight and she spent the whole time just watching out the window quietly, or resting her head on my shoulder while I drove, watching out the windshield.

 

My dogs don't care for kids either, so I'm not much help there. I just avoid places where I know there will be lots of children and I watch like a hawk to make sure none come running up to us. I'm very good at saying, "No" when I get asked if they can pet my dogs. Because my dogs have learned that I will watch out for them and not let the screaming small humans run up to them, they are far less reactive and the growling/barking has more or less stopped.

 

As the trainer we had said, you don't go up to every person in the city and ask to shake their hand, and you don't let everyone pet your child, so why would you let your dog be treated that way? Your dog doesn't have to "meet" every other dog it sees, nor let every kid pet it. I just don't want kids in my neighborhood having a fear of my dog, mostly. When she barks, I tell them "she doesn't know english, so she has to bark to say hello!" and it usually works on them, but their parents are still wary. Her tail is always wagging and she doesn't lunge aggressively, but it's the fear part.

 

My responses in bold...thanks for all the advice!!

[brady's mom]

I second Control Unleashed, even if it's just buying the book. It really helps with confidence issues in dogs along with calming and focus exercises.

 

Also, maybe try and do more mental stimulation like teaching silly tricks to help divert that fast thinking brain. Kikopup on youtube has a lot of fun things you can teach your dogs.

[brady's mom]

ack double post.

[Root Beer]

I also recommend the Control Unleashed program. It will set a good foundation to help you with many of these things.

 

In addition to getting the book, once you read it, you can join the yahoo list where the author will answer questions (but you have to have read the book to post). You could also get recommendations there for a trainer who uses the program. You might luck out and find someone near you.

 

Another book that I recommend, particularly for the resource guarding, is Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. She has a section specifically on resource guarding and has a pretty good protocol that you could try. She also has a new DVD out called TACT. I have not yet seen it, so I'm not sure if it would help, but it might be something else to consider as a resource.

 

I wish you the best. I had a Border Collie/Lab Mix girl for almost 10 years and she was a fantastic dog.

[simba]

My responses in bold...thanks for all the advice!!

 

Just about the tail wagging- I've only ever had one dog seriously try to bite me, but every time she tried she was wagging her tail. Dogs usually wag their tails out of excitement (for example when they're very afraid or angry). Obviously the tail wag looks different from the big sweeping wiggle-butt tail wag you get when the dog's enthusiastically greeting someone.

[Lereas]

Well, when she's very bothered and aggressive, her tail sticks straight out and up.

 

She did actually bite me last night (hard enough to bruise and scrape, but not puncture) after I ignored her growling and tried to look at her foot, on which she has a seeping hot spot.

 

We ended up just taking her to the vet today so they could drug her up and take a look or something, because she's simply not letting us near it.

 

I've also tried emailing a few trainers and behaviorists in the area, but have yet to hear back from a single one.

[sixx]

Just about the tail wagging- I've only ever had one dog seriously try to bite me, but every time she tried she was wagging her tail. Dogs usually wag their tails out of excitement (for example when they're very afraid or angry). Obviously the tail wag looks different from the big sweeping wiggle-butt tail wag you get when the dog's enthusiastically greeting someone.

 

Yes, absolutely. A tail wag doesn't mean happy. There is a great book called Canine Body Language by Brenda Aloff. It's a picture book with descriptions, very helpful in learning your what your pups body language means.

 

"Never before has canine body language been so thoroughly documented with photographs and text! Hundreds of images in this almost 400 page book illustrate the incredible variety of postures, behaviors and situations that the typical dog either manifests or encounters in his day-to-day life. There isn't a dog trainer or behaviorist who won't learn something new in this incredible volume. And there isn't a dog owner who won't welcome the new insights they will gain into the behavior of the family dog. "

[Maralynn]

I wouldn't keep pushing her at meal time. IMO it teaches a dog that there is something to be afraid of, a reason to guard food. I would either eliminate the dish altogether and feed by hand (throughout the day using NILIF) or feed her in a crate after she earns her food (ie, put the food in, she sits and gives eye contact you release her to go eat).

 

IMO, randomly messing with her food doesn't teach her anything but that a person might take it away from her so that she can't quite trust you.

 

For when you're out and about just keep her focused on you. Right now just tell the kids that she's in school and learning so she needs to stay focused on you. It sounds like meeting people is stressful for her so try not to let get get in that spot right now. When you go out and about take a baggie of high value treats and reward, reward, reward for correct behavior. She glances at you, reward. She walks nice on the leash reward. You want her in the attitude of "who cares about those people over there, I've got goodies here that I want to earn!!!!"

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

In her first post, the owner wrote: "We've since called up the Shelby County Obedience Club, recommended to me by a woman I saw while walking. This lady had FIVE BCs off leash, all of whom were acting totally controlled and friendly.'

 

So, okay. You've seen five Border Collies who were mannerly offleash. Their owner recommended a training club. Why wouldn't you give that club a try?

 

As a new owner you should know there are at least three major pet dog training schools and none has much use for the others. Each believes his method (and his/her particular subset) is the only way to train a dog. Picture an Evangelical, a conservative Muslim and a Zen Buddhist deciding: "What is truth?"

 

Depending on your diligence and (importantly) your instructor's talent and experience, any of these schools can produce a reasonably well behaved pet.

 

Away from a sheepdog trial, five Border Collies mannerly off leash is an exceptional sight, Take the lady's advice. Somebody at the Shelby County Obedience Club knows what they're doing.

 

Donald McCaig

[Lereas]

Dear Doggers,

 

In her first post, the owner wrote: "We've since called up the Shelby County Obedience Club, recommended to me by a woman I saw while walking. This lady had FIVE BCs off leash, all of whom were acting totally controlled and friendly.'

 

So, okay. You've seen five Border Collies who were mannerly offleash. Their owner recommended a training club. Why wouldn't you give that club a try?

 

As a new owner you should know there are at least three major pet dog training and none has much use for the others. Each believes his method (and his/her particular subset) is the only way to train a dog. Picture an Evangelical, a conservative Muslim and a Zen Buddhist deciding: "What is truth?"

 

Depending on your diligence and (importantly) your instructor's talent and experience, any of these schools can produce a reasonably well behaved pet.

 

Away from a sheepdog trial, five Border Collies mannerly off leash is an exceptional sight, Take the lady's advice. Somebody at the Shelby County Obedience Club knows what they're doing.

 

Donald McCaig

 

His first post, actually

 

We're going tonight over to the club to register for classes, or at least find out who there is willing to help us out.

 

That said, I did appreciate all of the other advice! Your analogy actually works really well, because all three are equally correct and unable to truly prove that theirs is best, and thus I could learn about all three and increase my overall knowledge even if I don't choose one of them.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

Mr. Lereas corrected me:

"His first post, actually "

 

I apologize for carelessness.

 

Donald McCaig

[Northof49]

Dear Doggers,

 

Away from a sheepdog trial, five Border Collies mannerly off leash is an exceptional sight, Take the lady's advice. Somebody at the Shelby County Obedience Club knows what they're doing.

 

Donald McCaig

 

well maybe you need to come up to my neck of the woods- it's not an unusual sight around here.

[sixx]

well maybe you need to come up to my neck of the woods- it's not an unusual sight around here.

 

Same here. When at the farm, there are multiple borders off-leash and being obedient.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Phooey. Multiple dogs offleash on the farm are commonplace. Every day I walk four Border Collies, three guard dogs and a hound mix puppy. The pack takes a walk. So?

 

But the original poster met a lady with 5 Off-leash Border Collies walking where that dog pack might meet and did meet strangers. That's a different story.

 

Off lead reliability is the express goal of everyone who ever wrote a dog training book. Translated (since dog writers get vague about these details) that goal seems to be: a single dog obedient enough off leash to be safely taken to public places among modest distractions (children playing, kissyface strangers, other dogs, food scraps on the ground, squirrels) etc. Our offlead dog needn't be reliable while his owner is mugged or when the dog is attacked by a Carne Corso. Dogs that perform brilliantly in the obedience ring or agility course but won't listen outside the competitive venue don't qualify. Nor do dogs that wear an ecollar all the time.

 

I travel a lot, almost always with dogs, and reliable dogs as defined are extremely rare. Hell, most pet dog trainers' dogs are on lead almost always. Let alone five of them.

 

Sheepdoggers train offlead and I've never got used to the damn things. I don't like them and have relatively poor "leash handling skills". For fun get two leashed dogs through an automatic revolving door!

 

I can walk four trial dogs offlead across a motel parking lot to the poop and pee grass - BUT. I sure as hell wouldn't do that on a Friday or Saturday night and even on quiet Sunday afternoons, I'm nervous as hell keeping four out of trouble.

 

One offlead sheepdog is a piece of cake in office buildings, municipal squares, market places, outdoor cafes, beaches. elevators and airport check in counters. Two aren't bad. More than two in public places test my comfort level - and my upper tolerance of dog safety.

 

I have had off lead dogs caught in traps. They've jumped elk, deer, coyotes and bears. They've broken through the ice. They've met schizophrenics, drunks, gun toters, reckless drivers, dangerous dogs and once had a chinnook helicopter nearly land on them.

 

I haven't lost any. Knock wood.

 

Donald McCaig