Question about working dog breeding practices

[PSmitty]

I totally agree. I've come to firmly believe that we can preserve or build up a dog's temperament. We can mishandle, reinforce weaknesses or even ruin a dog. But a dog's basic temperament is still the clay we have to work with.

 

Also agree.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Mark, in my experience, fear biters adapt poorly and learn slowly. There are other signs of these characteristics besides the biting, which can be spotted long before the dog gets to that point.

 

In training terms, one simply needs to take care to be aware of every source of pressure on the dog when a new concept is introduced. One pressure to assimilate at a time. The flooding point is reached very rapidly.

 

Clearly, these dogs are going to wash out quickly as working dogs. I have workex with many and have been able to wirk out the social issues, but they are never suitable as workers in a tight partnership siruation.

 

They do extremely well in patterned Behaviors though. This is the Yang to the Yin of this personality. It is both the weakness and what can be used to overcome their confusion, and also the outlet for the dog to find a place in the world.

 

These are the dog who gladly learn any silly made up human behaviors, by the bucketful, the more the better. The more patterned behaviors fill their heads, the less room they have to think about Scary New Stuff.

 

Mark, the short answer to your question is yes, I've calmly taken bites from so-called fear biters. There is no point saying or doing anything to a dog that has gotten to that point other than being the one with the opposable thumbs and largish prefrontal cortex.

 

I bring them both into play to protect the dog, and help the dog calm. Not through petting, but by being totally neutral and asking for familiar behaviors at the first sign that the stress hormones are subsiding.

[Liz P]

The longer I own, train, rescue and breed dogs the more I think that genetics plays a huge role. You can influence the reactions of a dog with training and show them that the world isn't such a scary place, but you can't change their underlying temperament.

[1sheepdoggal]

great thread! Lots a POV's and wonderful exchange of ideas, and experience, and experiences. What a great Q to discuss. You may proceed! Lol

[Barefoot]

On the other hand we have raised three sets of littermates and in all three sets the two pups are different in personality/temperament.

 

I believe it is 90% nature and 10% nurture

 

It's hard for humans to see it or accept it because we don't see it in our own species; however, there isn't a controlled breeding program in humans.

I would be apt to disagree with most of this. I'm more of the 10% nature 90% nurture school of thought. And also believe examples are rife within our own species; controlled breeding or not. Sure there are personality differences and different ways of learning from a genetic standpoint, but the nurturing component determines what personality/temperament traits become manifest in both humans and dogs.

 

If 90% of temperament were nature based, it would be nearly impossible to "rehabilitate" a dog that showed temperamental issues. I've worked with 100s of such dogs, and haven't found one yet in which that is the case. I don't imagine I'm that lucky.

 

I've raised BC pups in close proximity to litter-mates, and had my own pups turn into great dogs while the litter-mates are downright temperamental nightmares. And in a couple of cases I've traded dogs for a period of time and found that within a few days (it takes much longer for issues to creep in) the dogs were basically switching places from a temperamental standpoint; great stable 3 year old beginning to have issues, and 3 year old nightmare dog very much on the path to not having any issues.

 

That said, different dogs require very different approaches, and perhaps that was Mark's point, but I think that you can absolutely take dogs from opposite ends of the temperamental spectrum and have them display perfectly sound temperaments if you're willing to alter your methods.

 

I think that's the crux; people have their preference for a type of dog based on how they want (know how) to train/handle, and if it doesn't work they prefer to call it a genetic issue instead of altering the approach.

 

Of course you can't change the underlying genetics of a temperament, but I believe you can show any dog how relate their inherent temperament to the world in a positive way.

[Mark Billadeau]

So is what you're seeing really temperament or learned/taught behavior?

 

One can cover up genetics with training but when the dog is stressed it will revert to what genetics has programmed into the dog. A great example in working livestock is how the dog responds to a sheep which turns on the dog. Is the dog genetically inclined to fight or flight? You can train on the dog that is programmed to flight to stand to a sheep but with enough stress that dog will revert to flight.

 

 

[G. Festerling]

To me personally it is hard to put a percentage on it. Although I am inclined to lean towards assigning more importance to genetics.

I have watched a fair amount of litters (planned breedings = known backgrounds as well as foster litters = unknown backgrounds) grow and find that in discussions like this a lot of focus seems to be on individual dogs out of litters. I always see ranges in temperaments and characters with the overall temperament of a litter being a dead give away for me as to if I truly consider the genetics of mom and dad a bad match or if something happened later on.

Having said that, I love training and messing around with all temperaments out of sheer curiosity and a, at times with somewhat naive belief that every animal deserves at least a chance. The naive part about that to me is that I have come to realize that a bad character and temperament may be able to be managed or disguised but never totally altered. And for many situations that simply won't do. I am facing this with a foster at the very moment.

So to me, my choices in breeding have rarely been based on the extremes but on a reliable and workable balance.

I have high expectations. I allow flaws in my dogs. But I also know which I am willing to work with. And one thing I feel terrible for are the dogs that have to spend all of their lives being managed because they are simply not able to cope. And to me, based on my limited experience, that level of anxiety and fear is based squarely in genetics.