Do you think sheepdog trials are a competitve sport?

[Rave]

Just curious...

 

Wikipedia defines a sheepdog trial as "a competitive dog sport," do you agree?

[source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheepdog_trial ]

[juliepoudrier]

Your link didn't work for me, so I'm trying again: Sheepdog trials.

 

Trials are competitions. I think whether they are entirely a sport is open to interpretation. To me sport means something that is pursued for its own sake (no practical, human-help value), but certainly plenty of people run in sheepdog trials purely for the sport of it (i.e., they don't raise livestock, don't use their dogs in such operations, aren't really concerned about that aspect of the work, etc.), and in some cases I think that has been to the detriment of the dogs (note: I'm not saying this is always the case, but people who approach stockwork purely as a sport tend to have a different viewpoint about the work, its purpose, and the livestock themselves, which isn't necessarily a good thing--and I've seen a lot more of this lately, as more people who don't raise livestock and who really do view it as purely a sport have entered the ranks of trialists).

 

But inasmuch as the competition/sport itself helps to refine breeding choices for a work purpose I think the "sport" of stockdog trialing is somewhat different from other dog sports that are generally pursued purely for enjoyment of the competition.

 

That's not to say that folks like Tommy Wilson and Alasdair MacRae (or the rest of us) don't enjoy the competition of stockdog trialing, but rather that they also see it as part of a larger picture that includes testing and selecting the best workers under a variety of tough conditions and situations for a purpose that at least can affect some people's livelihoods or the ease with which they manage their livestock.

 

As for the poll, I would answer sometimes one, sometimes the other, depending on the type of trial and the people/dogs involved.

 

J.

[Pearse]

Yes and No.

 

Yes: A trial is a competition. Teams compete for prizes. Humans do it for fun (the dogs have fun too but they DO it because every fiber of their being tells them they must).

 

No: Too many variables for it to be a sport. Judging is subjective, sheep change by the hour, weather affects runs which means that the best team doesn't always win. Trials are trials, meaning they are a TEST of dogs' abilities against other dogs.

 

 

For some more than others.

 

For some people, sheepdogs trials and training are pure sport. They don't have sheep. They never will. They train and trial dogs purely for the fun of it. Others need dogs for work. Training is serious business as is breeding. Trialling is fun, but more than sport.

 

And that's OK, as long as we never lose sight of the bigger picture, that TRIAL = TEST and that dumbing down the test part to make the sport part more "accessible" is a very very big mistake (in my opinion).

 

Pearse

[Tea]

I agree with Julie and Pearce.

[Mark Billadeau]

I would put stockdog trials in the same category as lumberjack competitions, firefighter competitions, sled dog races, etc. All are based upon skills that were/are used in a job but were crafted to test the skills of the competitors on the same playing field.

 

I think of sports as something where there is no career analogy where the skill set is not used for any job. For example, hitting a golf ball into a small hole in a green is not used in any job (except for golf pros).

[Sue R]

^^^ What they said.

 

I personally feel that calling it a "sport" demeans it, makes it strictly optional and entertainment. Its primary purpose and function is as another test for the working stockdog, alongside practical and real-world farm/ranch work.

 

So, I would not answer "yes" or "no" or "undecided". I am decided but feel that neither yes or no is a suitable answer for how I feel.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Sheepdog trials = competitive work

[Diana A]

I would put stockdog trials in the same category as lumberjack competitions, firefighter competitions, sled dog races, etc. All are based upon skills that were/are used in a job but were crafted to test the skills of the competitors on the same playing field.

 

I think of sports as something where there is no career analogy where the skill set is not used for any job. For example, hitting a golf ball into a small hole in a green is not used in any job (except for golf pros).

 

Totally agree. It IS a competition, but one with a bigger purpose beyond mere sport. There are outside influences shaping what the sport is and constraining how much you can change certain things without losing the point. This is unlike other true sports where it's all pretty arbitrary, and in the end its only true value is in terms of entertainment and recreation.

[WildFlower]

I agree with Julie, Mark, and Pearse.

[brndlbc]

 

 

No: Too many variables for it to be a sport. Judging is subjective, sheep change by the hour, weather affects runs which means that the best team doesn't always win.

 

 

Bull Riding, bareback/saddleback bronc riding are a subjective activity where the stock can change by the hour as well. Outdoor PBR/PRCA events are subject to weather too. Where do we put these events? I always called them "sport" . I suppose it is all semantics anyway.

[juliepoudrier]

Bull Riding, bareback/saddleback bronc riding are a subjective activity where the stock can change by the hour as well. Outdoor PBR/PRCA events are subject to weather too. Where do we put these events? I always called them "sport" . I suppose it is all semantics anyway.

I suppose. But some of us did qualify the "big picture" aspect wherein the animals are being tested for some useful purpose. And since we're talking dogs and dog sports, I guess bull riding, etc., don't really qualify for the discussion. You're better off comparing the sports of obedience, dock diving, flyball, agility, etc., with sheepdog trials if you want to make a comparison that actually applies to this topic in any meaningful way.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Sport is recreation or play. Sheepdog trials, long before they solidified into a formal test of Sheepdog breeding stock, really were just "busmen's holidays."

 

I think today we have a recreational environment with a test of breeding stock embedded within it. Some people are there for fun, some are there to see what monkeys fall out of the training and genetic potential of the dogs.

 

The fabulous thing is that the trial is set up such that the serious trainer and rancher can enjoy herself too, and a spectator can learn a great deal about the real working ability of the dog whose handler is just there "for fun."

 

I am speaking strictly of open level training, of course.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

One thought. If you learn to ride a bull, a saddlebags or bareback bronc, or even sports like team roping and cutting, these don't necessarily translate well to ranch work.

 

Most open handlers and open dogs are handy to have around. Sunday teams are a treasure.

 

The way these dogs develop their full potential had become inextricably linked to the trials. Some of the old documents seem to indicate this was deliberate.

 

It would be interesting to document whether this is true, once for all. It so, then indeed the trials WOULD be the defining standard of the breed called "Border Collie." Sport or not.

[Rave]

One thought. If you learn to ride a bull, a saddlebags or bareback bronc, or even sports like team roping and cutting, these don't necessarily translate well to ranch work.

 

Really? I'm no rancher, but I've always been led to believe the opposite. Except for the bull riding, the other events of the rodeo are (or were originally) based in real work.

[airbear]

I've kind of wondered about rodeo and rough stock events too. I've watched Team Penning with some experienced cattle men and they *hate* it, and not just a little bit either. But the roping, the reining/cutting horse competitions ... I can see how these might be based in real work.

 

I'm off to the Calgary Stampede this weekend, where my two dogs will be competing in something called the World Stock Dog Championships. It's an arena trial held in the Saddledome. Now ostensibly, the Calgary Stampede has as its purpose "to preserve and promote western heritage and values". I'm not 100% sure how moving three sheep around barrels in a hockey arena contributes to this, but perhaps I am being too literal.

[brndlbc]

I suppose. But some of us did qualify the "big picture" aspect wherein the animals are being tested for some useful purpose. And since we're talking dogs and dog sports, I guess bull riding, etc., don't really qualify for the discussion. You're better off comparing the sports of obedience, dock diving, flyball, agility, etc., with sheepdog trials if you want to make a comparison that actually applies to this topic in any meaningful way.

 

J.

 

:lol:

[geonni banner]

I wonder if the people who do competitive carriage driving see what they do as a sport. It certainly is called that. I doubt if many of the people who charge through streams, whip around pylons and maneuver a four-in-hand or a pair around a tough course drive home behind a team of horses. But a horse that can do those things without freaking out, running away or breaking down might be a better breeding choice if you wanted a good driving horse.

If I was making a breeding choice of either a sheepdog or a driving horse, I would be interested in how the animals did in their respective competitions. But of course that would only be one of many important factors to consider. In both instances - the sheepdog trial and the carriage competition - you can learn a lot about an animal's temperament, stamina, athleticism and ability. So I think that yes, both could be called sporting events, but they have a component that, say, Frisbee competitions lack, and so have greater meaning and value.

[Lewis Moon]

I would put stockdog trials in the same category as lumberjack competitions, firefighter competitions, sled dog races, etc. All are based upon skills that were/are used in a job but were crafted to test the skills of the competitors on the same playing field.

 

I think of sports as something where there is no career analogy where the skill set is not used for any job. For example, hitting a golf ball into a small hole in a green is not used in any job (except for golf pros).

 

How would you catagorize the javalin or the biathalon, both stemming from skills learned in warmaking?

[juliepoudrier]

^^I think Mark answered that in his post. If it's not now a job skill, then it's a sport. Of course, if the folks entering lumberjack competitions and the like aren't actually lumberjacks (I think you have to actually be a fireman to participate in those competitions), then it moves things more toward the sport category IMO, same as is happening with sheepdog trials. That is, as more folks with no livestock background, no interest in livestock aside from training or trialing, etc., enter the competitions, then the competitions move more toward sport (as opposed to early days when nearly everyone who competed was also a stockman of one sort or another).

 

I think the main difference that still exists is that in stockdog competitions, the focus is still largely on the dog and its skills--not necessarily whether a particular dog wins (e.g., Tommy's Sly doesn't win every time she goes out on the field, but stockdog people still recognize her for what she is and how good she is, winning trials or not). For most sports, the real end goal is the win, and the value of the animal or person participating is based almost entirely on the wins.

 

J.

[Shoofly]

I think one different thing in sheepdog trials vs sport is the breeding aspect. There's no denying that winning dogs influence the gene pool, whether on a local, regional or national level.

[Mark Billadeau]

How would you catagorize the javalin or the biathalon, both stemming from skills learned in warmaking?

How far one can throw a javelin was not really the object in war making. Biathlon at least assesses accuracy (which is an ideal skill in war making). These are like archery, target shooting, cross country skiing, fencing, various forms of hand-to-hand combat (i.e. kung fu); all can be or have been part of war making but none really tests all the basic skills of war making. Military war games are more in line with the ones I've already listed since they involve all the basic skills in war making not just one very small aspect. It would be like calling a shedding competition a good test of a working sheepdog to be useful on the farm or ranch.

 

Sorry, I only gave you my reasoning not my answer to your question. I would call the ones you list sports.

 

 

[Lewis Moon]

My dad was an old school athlet trainer. His opinion was that it wasn't a sport unless you needed a jock or a helmet (this was pre-title nine). Everything else was just a passtime.

[Rave]

I think one different thing in sheepdog trials vs sport is the breeding aspect. There's no denying that winning dogs influence the gene pool, whether on a local, regional or national level.

 

Since that happens in both sheepdog trials and agility/flyball/whatever, I don't think that's a different aspect between the different types of dog competitions, whether classified as "sport" or not.

 

Or were you referring to the difference between dog sports and people sports?

[Mark Billadeau]

My dad was an old school athlet trainer. His opinion was that it wasn't a sport unless you needed a jock or a helmet (this was pre-title nine). Everything else was just a passtime.

Competitive shooting and barrel racing are passtimes while hang gliding and show jumping are sports.

[Lewis Moon]

Competitive shooting and barrel racing are passtimes while hang gliding and show jumping are sports.

I have 150 skydives in my log and only about 10 of then were with a helmet. Go figure.

 

Back on subject: IMIHO everything is a continuum and we really don't do service to anything having "lumper/splitter" discussions. Sheepdog trialing is sheepdog trialing.