brndlbc Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Competitive shooting and barrel racing are passtimes while hang gliding and show jumping are sports. With permission, I would like to move barrel racing and other equine speed events to the sport category as, if you are a guy, it is a good idea to have "the boys" secured (tight jeans aren't just for looks) because if that horse drops his shoulder too soon.... :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 I think the main difference that still exists is that in stockdog competitions, the focus is still largely on the dog and its skills--not necessarily whether a particular dog wins (e.g., Tommy's Sly doesn't win every time she goes out on the field, but stockdog people still recognize her for what she is and how good she is, winning trials or not). For most sports, the real end goal is the win, and the value of the animal or person participating is based almost entirely on the wins. J. I think this is a very important distinction. There are a number of dogs that may never win a trial, but they have still demonstrated their ability to do quality work on varying courses and stock, under different conditions. The sports mantra of "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" does not apply to sheepdog trials - or, if that's a handler's point of view, I think they don't have their priorities right. A win is great - a good run or a dog demonstrating good work is most important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I think this is a very important distinction. There are a number of dogs that may never win a trial, but they have still demonstrated their ability to do quality work on varying courses and stock, under different conditions. The sports mantra of "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing" does not apply to sheepdog trials - or, if that's a handler's point of view, I think they don't have their priorities right. A win is great - a good run or a dog demonstrating good work is most important. Good point there. The trials do often influence breeding and dog purchase decision (and the purchase decisions in turn can influence who is getting bred as well) regardless of who actually won or not. I bought my last two based on what I saw at trials. In one case it was a bitch whose work I liked and I found afterwards she had just been bred. I think she did win that day but that wasn't why I got a pup out of her; I just liked how she worked. In the other case, I really liked how a dog worked and when I inquired where he was from I was told his breeding had just been repeated for a third time, so I ended up getting a pup from that breeding. I don't think that dog I saw won, or at least, I never bothered to even check; again, I just liked how he worked. Now I've trialed that pup only once (she is only 19 months right now, first trial was at 17 months) and she didn't win, but I still got a number of people asking me where she was from because apparently they saw some qualities in her they liked (imperfect 'baby dog' work and all). So trialing is more than a mere competition - it's a great showcase of the dogs and the first place I'd go if I was looking for what line to buy a dog from, to just watch and see what I liked. I don't base it on who wins - there are sometimes dogs who place very high but I just don't care for them, and then others will make a mistake somewhere or not be handled well, but you can still see it's a good dog. This is why it's important that certain elements are always kept in the trialing and difficulty is at a good level, so you really get a chance to see who the good dogs are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I noticed when watching the trailer for the documentary, "Away To Me", that it calls sheepdog trials a competitive dog sport. Doesn't bother me, of course, but wondered if it would get some feathers ruffled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 With the somewhat common attitude seen here towards "sport" I thought it might offend some. I for one think it's a sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 With the somewhat common attitude seen here towards "sport" I thought it might offend some. I for one think it's a sport. No surprises here - you've expressed that opinion before. There is still a valid difference between recreational sport and trials that test and prove working dogs. Whether or not a person regards both as sport or only one as a sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I don't think the attitude anyone perceives is toward sport; it's the breeding that follows. But then we've said that till we're blue in the face and some persist in believing that the working folk are against sports. Guess there's no convincing some.... J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 With the somewhat common attitude seen here towards "sport" I thought it might offend some. I for one think it's a sport. I don't know that the word the word "sport" offends many, it may be that it goes back to the whole idea that working stock was the Border Collies' reason for existence , -they are work dogs. Anything else they do may be thought of as "sport" in many folks minds. I think you are missing it-whether it is agility or working stock call it what you please, just please do not bred out the Border Collie by breeding for anything other than working stock. Sheepdog trialing evolved from the UK shepherds/farmers "testing" their good dogs on a Saturday , the same dogs that worked for a living all week on a farm. Same as the skills that my reined cowhorses exhibit when they compete against other cowhorses. These are skills that originally came from the vaqueros and their cowhorses who worked the ranches in California . Many of these working border collies and these reined cowhorses could still go out and do a day's work today. Can't you just enjoy your dog , no matter what the "event", "trial", "sport" you choose to do and not worry about validating your choice of "activity"? It baffles me why you want to label things and seemingly equate various activities with the Border Collie. Just enjoy your dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Oh I'm not missing anything, this is not a spin off the other ETS thread, rather a perception gained from years on this board. I need no validation from anyone here, and I do enjoy my dogs, so not sure why crock is going off on that tangent. Not offended, just find it amusing. BTW I never said working people (hey wait, I work!) are against sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Oh I'm not missing anything, this is not a spin off the other ETS thread, rather a perception gained from years on this board. I need no validation from anyone here, and I do enjoy my dogs, so not sure why crock is going off on that tangent. Not offended, just find it amusing. BTW I never said working people (hey wait, I work!) are against sports. Clearly you have missed something here and yes this is a result or incredible coincidence that you ask this question following hundres of post about the agility dna problem. We're done, it's like talking to a sulky kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I'm not going round and round with you on your incorrect assumptions. Have a good weekend all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I've always viewed it as a sport. not sure if I would be able to explain my reasoning behind it. But its a competition and the goal is winning or showing off your dog ability. I can watch an agility trial and be able to tell you who is farm/bred and who is sports breed. I know the type of dogs I like to see even if they didn't past you can tell they are very good. And I know breeding get done base off how a dog ability to perform. But none of that changes the fact agility is a sport. While its help the ranchers, sheep trial-ier, and shepherds pick out their up coming dog it will have little impact on an agility person or a flyball person or a pet person how well the dog trials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I think there is a good amount of grey area in what constitutes "sport" or not in certain disciplines. Often "sport" is in they eye of the beholder, and the participant. I grew up watching NASCAR racing and the debate, "is car racing a sport" was a popular one. Some argued vehemently "yes". That driving a race car for 500 miles is extremely physical. And, of course, it is highly competitive. On the other hand, others would say "it's driving cars", so it can't be a sport. Those who feel that it is continue to consider it a sport. Those who do not, do not. Obviously, the sports channels consider it to be one. But there certainly are people who don't. Being involved in Canine Musical Freestyle, the same question comes up. Is it a sport? Well, we do train our dogs and compete, much as those who are involved in competitive Agility or Obedience do. But it is also an art. We choreograph, we strive to entertain, we create costumes and props and, hopefully, a good visual effect, and often we use our Freestyle in definite non-sport contexts like nursing homes and fundraisers for things like dog rescue. But we also compete for titles and ribbons - or, at least, some of us do. I consider Freestyle to be both an art and a sport. Personally, I am drawn more to the art side. Some are drawn very heavily to the sport side. Which is it? It really does depend. As an observer, sheepdog trails strike me as just such a grey area. I can see why some consider it to be sport and why others would not. There is a competitive aspect to it, even if the goal of all participants is not mainly to come out on top. It has rules and those rules do determine an order of placement (whether ribbons are awarded or not). And there certainly is a physical component to it. And there is also the practical application to work aspect to it, as well, of course, and the role of trials in breeding choices. Not to imply that is secondary by mentioning it second. The order of mention was arbitrary. Since the topic of the discussion is sport, I started with that. As an observer, I see an artistic aspect to it, as well. Not artistic in the sense of dance or music, but in the "it's an art" kind of sense. But to me that doesn't negate the possibility that a discipline is a sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brndlbc Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Can't you just enjoy your dog , no matter what the "event", "trial", "sport" you choose to do and not worry about validating your choice of "activity"?.... Just enjoy your dog. Yes, this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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