roscoe11 Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Hey I found bordercollie.org today. I then spent a good part of the afternoon reading through the forums, what a great resource. When you answer this question please remember I am a newbie. While reading through the forums I notice a rather condescending attitude toward sport dog breeders vs. the working dog breeder. How would you characterize the difference between the two types of breeder? Are their traits in a BC that a breeder that does agility our disc dog competitions would wont and that a working dog breeder would not? It seems to me that both breeders are looking towards and striving for the same thing. The trait that makes a good working dog also makes a good sports dog….. right? The reason I ask is that I am looking for a BC puppy. My interest is mostly in agility and disc dog competitions (because I live in the city). Should I by pass the sport dog breeder and go right to the source (the working dog breeder) or is there a good reason to stay with the type of breeder that competes in the same arena that I intend too competes in? Thank you Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 It seems to me that both breeders are looking towards and striving for the same thing. The trait that makes a good working dog also makes a good sports dog….. right? I guess the place to start is to identify what traits are needed for a good working stock dog and compare them to the traits needed for a dog to be a good sports dog. I have seen plenty of dogs that were great sport dog prospects that were not worth a lick when it came to stock work. The ability to control and handle livestock is not needed nor valued in dog sports (valued as in there is no reward issued in the form of a ribbon or trophy). Might want the drive, intensity and self control but not the inate feel and natural reflexes to the motion of the livestock that a great stockdog would have. ETA: Welcome to the boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 If you like Border Collies then you like a dog that has been carefully and strictly selected for a high standard of stock work for over a hundred years. In other words, if you like Border Collies then buy from a working breeder. Breed to any other standard and you will, over several generations, get a totally different breed. If breeding for agility got the same results as breeding for work then agility Shelties, Corgis, Papillons, JRTs and others should all act and look exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd's Mom Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 I have dogs from rescue with unknown breeding, sport bred, and working bred. I will tell you for certain my working bred dog is much easier to live with and train than the sport bred dog. Both of them are in agility training though the working dog is still a pup of only 7 months old so only doing ground foundation work. Of the two rescues one is wonky and is a double merle and the other is ABCA. They both had rough starts and I didn't get the ABCA dog until he was older. I love them all, but from a training aspect I will only ever go working bred again. Doing so has also gotten me into sheep herding (just starting out with lessons) and I am addicted! I will never be able to own a farm with stock to work daily, but watching these dogs do what they are intended to do is nothing short of magical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diana A Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Welcome to the boards :-) To answer your question - breeding for stockwork for so many generations is what made the border collie what it is today. Then along came dog sports, and it was discovered that these border collies far surpassed other breeds in drive, focus, work ethic, and athletic ability, to the point where they dominated many of the dog sports pretty quickly. So I would take that as evidence that yes, a working bred dog should have the traits needed to be a good sport dog, as a by product of it's being bred for work. On the flip side, breeding for sports values many of those same factors (drive, focus, etc), but the stock sense and talent is absent, not part of the breeding equation. I believe it is the stockwork that keeps all those other traits in balance - you need drive but you need self control and the ability to think clearly even in very high excitement situations, you need a strong desire to work but you still need biddability and the desire to yield to the handler, you need focus, but not obsessive focus to where the dog becomes neurotic. You need lots of stamina to work, but also a dog who can settle when there's no work to be done. A GOOD border collie is a balance of a lot of pretty extreme traits, and I think it's the hard selective pressure of the work they were bred to do that has kept all those things in balance. As an example, take a look at show ring bred border collies. They have very different drive and work ethic, and it's interesting that you do not see that many of the 'show' type in dog sports these days. Now I won't say that if you go to a sport breeder you won't find a nice dog for whatever is your sport of choice. You probably will. Not necessarily a better dog than you would have got from working lines, but I imagine they would be good at whatever sport they were bred for. But I believe as time goes on you're going to see the sport bred dogs branch off and become a different type of dog - that balance created by the stockwork will be missing, certain things emphasized, others diminished. Why mess with perfection? This whole sport thing has only been going on for a pretty short time in the grand scheme of things, so the changes may not be that evident yet. If you want to contribute to preserving this marvelous and unique breed of dog for what it was meant to be, then it's better to support the working breeders, and you will still get a nice dog too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Well said Diana! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted July 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Diana that was an amazing answer stated with such elegants. OK now that you have thoroughly persuaded me to get a working bred dog, how do I find a good breeder? I would love to try sheep herding it is such a wonderful thing to watch but living in the city it seems like it would be rather impractical. Thank you all for your input. steve Well said Diana! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rushdoggie Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Welcome to the boards :-) To answer your question - breeding for stockwork for so many generations is what made the border collie what it is today. Then along came dog sports, and it was discovered that these border collies far surpassed other breeds in drive, focus, work ethic, and athletic ability, to the point where they dominated many of the dog sports pretty quickly. So I would take that as evidence that yes, a working bred dog should have the traits needed to be a good sport dog, as a by product of it's being bred for work. On the flip side, breeding for sports values many of those same factors (drive, focus, etc), but the stock sense and talent is absent, not part of the breeding equation. I believe it is the stockwork that keeps all those other traits in balance - you need drive but you need self control and the ability to think clearly even in very high excitement situations, you need a strong desire to work but you still need biddability and the desire to yield to the handler, you need focus, but not obsessive focus to where the dog becomes neurotic. You need lots of stamina to work, but also a dog who can settle when there's no work to be done. A GOOD border collie is a balance of a lot of pretty extreme traits, and I think it's the hard selective pressure of the work they were bred to do that has kept all those things in balance. As an example, take a look at show ring bred border collies. They have very different drive and work ethic, and it's interesting that you do not see that many of the 'show' type in dog sports these days. Now I won't say that if you go to a sport breeder you won't find a nice dog for whatever is your sport of choice. You probably will. Not necessarily a better dog than you would have got from working lines, but I imagine they would be good at whatever sport they were bred for. But I believe as time goes on you're going to see the sport bred dogs branch off and become a different type of dog - that balance created by the stockwork will be missing, certain things emphasized, others diminished. Why mess with perfection? This whole sport thing has only been going on for a pretty short time in the grand scheme of things, so the changes may not be that evident yet. If you want to contribute to preserving this marvelous and unique breed of dog for what it was meant to be, then it's better to support the working breeders, and you will still get a nice dog too. Really nicely put. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Excellent answer Diana. Steve, welcome to the boards! Where are you located? Members will be better able to help with that piece of information. (Sorry if I missed that information.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Roscoe, First off, tell us where you are located (a region is fine; doesn't have to be an exact location) and then we can supply you with the names of good working dog breeders that are relatively close to you. Diana put it beautifully, so no need to add to that part of the discussion. As for working your dog and living in the city, it depends on your motivation and whether there is a competent trainer within driving distance. You may find that you won't have time to do it all and that you'd rather concentrate on sports, but if you do want to get serious about working stock somewhere down the road, it's possible to do without owning a farm and your own livestock. The key is finding a good mentor within a reasonable driving distance. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnottyClarence Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Diana's had a really good day of posts all the way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I live in Atlanta Ga. If you could point me to a good breeder near by, that would be great. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Just a suggestion from an experienced dog sports competitor/trainer/teacher ... If you're looking to learn these sports, I suggest getting a young adult dog so you can start the learning process right away. By getting a pup, you have to wait for the pup to grow up before doing much other than baby-dog foundation work, in which you might lose interest. To get to the end result quicker, give yourself a head start with a young adult. If you're new to BC's, this will also help you find one to suit your personality and lifestyle as well. There are even people who look to re-home already-trained sports dogs. Talk to your local training clubs (I suggest http://www.siriusdogagility.com/). Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Plus, there are also people who are looking to rehome young adult working dogs. Some agility people who train with working people might give you hints there, if you keep your eyes and ears open. And of course, there are some rescues with connections to people who are experienced in sports, who can properly evaluate candidates for various pursuits. For instance, there's a husband and wife rescue family near me who have been competing in disc dog and flyball for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cindy Evans Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Go here and do your homework. http://www.gsda.org/ Give the breeders here a call, introduce yourself and what you want. Someone should be able to help. Cindy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 My own Sam is out of some good old Georgia breeding so I can speak highly of the lines there. Sports? Yeah. We've only tried lure coursing formally but let me put it this way, when Sam comes out, the operator is told to hammer the button and keep a foot over the cord (for when Sam catches the lure). We are also working on disc and dock diving. Sam is my service dog, and also works here on my little sheep farm. Some of the old working stock preserved down there is just a treasure. The lines go back to the first dogs imported from the UK, back before there was even a UK registry! Be really careful because in your area you have a wide choice of breeders. From puppy mills, to pet dog breeders, to farm breeders who honestly have no idea what they are doing, to breeders still seeking to produce a balanced and useful working dog, to MANY very high dollar sport focused breeders, and a smattering of pure show breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe11 Posted July 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Cindy i have seen that list of Breeders and i plan to give them a call. i am just not sure i know enough about the BC and their bloodline and or working dog competitions to make an educated decision. My last dog (a german shepherd) was titled in Schutzhund. I know there were Schutzhund trials where confirmation breeders would title their dog so they could call them a Schutzhund dog. These trials where not the same as trials that the working dog would compete in. I am sure this is true with herding dog competitions also. I just don't know the difference. It's funny, in Germany if your german shepherd can't be titled with at lest Schutzhund I, you don't really have a german shepherd and you can't breed it. The hips have to be certified good or you can't breed it ether. They take their german shepherd dog very seriously, consequently a german shepherd from Germany is a vastly different dog the an American german shepherd. So your argument of watering down the BC's working line rings true to me. i am looking for a puppy because i think the year you spend doing baby-dog foundation work is when the strongest bond is formed between you and your dog. My german shepherd and I had a very strong bond. He would have jump through a hail of bullets if i ask him to. He was an amazing dog. I also think that during that year you learn how your dog learns. I may not have been the best dog trainer around but I did know how to train my dog better then anyone else. Again thanks for all your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Roscoe, I sent you a PM. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Welcome to the boards! Collies, sub adult, on up to adult, if well bred, tend to bond very strongly and quite quickly to new owners/handlers. I agree that a more mature dog would be a good idea. Even with newbies starting to learn stock work, it is highly reccomended that one get a ''started dog'' so that both u and ur dog arent floundering. Just my 2 cents, but i say this because we all want to pick out and raise a cute lil pup, i bucked the system myself when i first started out this working dog romance, i wouldnt say i ruined my first dog, but what i will say, is that had i listened to those in the know, and not have been so stubborn, and started out with a started dog, im sure id have become a better trainer and handler a lot sooner, and it would have been much easier for the dog as well. Please look at considering a herding drop out, one that isnt quite enough dog on stock, and id be willing to bet, you two together could make one heck of a team, in no time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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