Informing Peers About Border Collies -- Would love some input

[sixx]

I don't think I'm assuming anything. You stated yourself that this behavior went on daily. The BCs ability to focus is true. Terms like hyper and obsess become relevant when people fail to channel the focus correctly or simply allow the dog to create their own outlets for that focus.

 

That seems like a lot of work to teach her to hyper focus on a duck instead of a fly.

 

I'm going to be honest with you, I think you are really confused. You misunderstand your own statements, and there seems to always be confusion with you and your replies in multiple topics/posts.

 

You said:

"why not take the time to teach her to disengage and channel her energy into something positive like paying attention to you?"

 

Exactly what I did.

 

I can teach you since you don't understand...

There are two easy ways to teach a dog not to hyper-focus, one being to target something (duck), two is teaching the dog to make eye contact with you. Well, I did both of these, so I'm not understanding how you are confused about this, seems pretty simple and self explanatory. If she were hyper-focusing on the toy, she would obsess over the toy not breaking her stare and would not be engaged in activity with me. This never once occurred. She payed complete attention to me and got rewarded for this. This was a game and we were having fun.

 

I'm sure you have a much better technique, please do tell.

[havenjm]

Who voiced that "fallacy"? Certainly not the person whose post you quoted and were apparently replying to. What she spoke of was "the absolute joy they take in doing something with you."

I gave voice to that fallacy after what, IMO, were numerous allusions to that mode of interaction.

 

Not that I think there's a black and white difference between the two concepts. If anyone HAD said that "dogs take joy because it makes us happy," I would have to explore what they meant by that -- WHY, in their opinion, the dogs take joy because it makes us happy -- before I could conclude that the difference between what they're saying and what you think they should say is anything more than semantics. There's a lot of mutual joy in dog-person relationships, and I don't think anyone who observes that they seem to enjoy our happiness, just as we enjoy theirs, is expressing a pathological or destructive concept.

Would you consider it destructive if your husband thought you only existed to make him happy?

 

 

 

Why on earth would treating to the point of morbid obesity result from people thinking that dogs take joy in making us happy?

Because when, in your mind, your dog exists to make you happy, the needs of the dog don't really matter. It doesn't matter that the dog needs fewer treats and more exercise because the dog is only a tool to bring you happiness, and giving a dog treats makes you happy. There are a million other examples of this in dogdom, and entire methodologies and industries have developed around exploiting the concept.

[brndlbc]

Would you consider it destructive if your husband thought you only existed to make him happy?

 

I'm probably going to get into trouble for this one too but

 

[Eileen Stein]

Would you consider it destructive if your husband thought you only existed to make him happy?

 

Well, I could truthfully say that I take joy in making my husband happy, and I observe that he feels the same toward me, which is the concept you seemed to be disparaging with regard to dogs. But now you've evidently slid from condemning the concept that "dogs take joy because it makes us happy" (which nobody said but you) to condemning the concept that "dogs only exist to make us happy." Now THERE are two concepts between which there's a black and white difference.

 

Did you really perceive that anyone was claiming anywhere in this thread that dogs only exist to make us happy? You would have to go a long way here to find someone who believes that dogs only exist to make us happy, and if you found such a person, it wouldn't be someone who alludes to the joy dogs derive from our company. It would be someone who couldn't care less whether dogs feel joy or not.

 

Because when, in your mind, your dog exists to make you happy, the needs of the dog don't really matter. It doesn't matter that the dog needs fewer treats and more exercise because the dog is only a tool to bring you happiness, and giving a dog treats makes you happy. There are a million other examples of this in dogdom, and entire methodologies and industries have developed around exploiting the concept.

 

The people you're caricaturing now don't give treats because they think their dog only exists to make them happy. They give treats because they think -- misguidedly -- that they are making the dog happy. They are taking joy in the happiness their dog displays when it gets the treat. They are the polar opposite of someone who thinks their dog exists to make them happy.

[ejano]

You know, my dogs are smart enough to know that there are no sheep in the bottom of the clothes basket, and yet they follow me anyway. Not because they're looking for ways to please me (and ejano never said that was why -- nor did she say that dogs work sheep to please us or that dogs exist to make us happy). It's because they like being with me. They like doing things with me, even if it's not their favorite thing that we're doing, and even if they know from experience that I'm not going to be doing any of their favorite things any time soon.

 

Why do they like this? I don't know. Maybe because dogs back in their ancestry who showed that trait were the ones who got bred. Maybe because it's boring to lie there doing nothing, and I'm the most interesting thing around. Maybe because they're pack animals, and just moving in the company of the leading member of their group is pleasurable to them. Maybe for evolutionary reasons they've come to find a feeling of pleasure and "all's right with the world" in cooperating with their pack leader. Maybe it's because they like me -- they really, really like me. Maybe it's all of these things -- who knows? But to me it's silly to deny what I see every day -- the absolute joy most border collies take in doing something with you -- and to try instead to convert that into "doing what works for them" in some superficial way.

 

 

 

Thanks, Eileen...you said it much better. It's rather funny really -- the ACK world talks about a "companion" dog and our working dog is the best companion ever -- in the true sense of the world. My dogs remind me every day to lead a purpose driven life. Sure, they make me smile -- who wouldn't, seeing three expectant faces lining up before you as you tie your shoes, "Okay, lady, what are we going to do today?" And when you're not feeling so good, they lie quietly beside you, not asking for anything, just giving. They're good dogs, these Border Collies of ours.

[havenjm]

Well, I could truthfully say that I take joy in making my husband happy, and I observe that he feels the same toward me, which is the concept you seemed to be disparaging with regard to dogs.

That's not the concept I'm disparaging at all. It's the concept you're stuck on.

 

But now you've evidently slid from condemning the concept that "dogs take joy because it makes us happy" (which nobody said but you) to condemning the concept that "dogs only exist to make us happy." Now THERE are two concepts between which there's a black and white difference.

I haven't slid at all, you're attempting reposition my stance by leaving out the fundamental article: "only". There is a vast difference between "dogs take joy because it makes us happy" and " dogs only take joy because it makes us happy."

 

 

Did you really perceive that anyone was claiming anywhere in this thread that dogs only exist to make us happy? You would have to go a long way here to find someone who believes that dogs only exist to make us happy, and if you found such a person, it wouldn't be someone who alludes to the joy dogs derive from our company. It would be someone who couldn't care less whether dogs feel joy or not.

Again, you're failing to see the point I'm actually making, and only arguing with the point you've fabricated. My point is that people often mistake their own joy for the joy of the dog, and IMO that's due to the idea that dogs only want to please them. Numerous anecdotes and videos celebrate disfunction in dogs. The majority even. Why is that?

 

 

 

The people you're caricaturing now don't give treats because they think their dog only exists to make them happy. They give treats because they think -- misguidedly -- that they are making the dog happy. They are taking joy in the happiness their dog displays when it gets the treat.

Exactly. They are taking joy from their dog, to the detriment of the dog.

 

They are the polar opposite of someone who thinks their dog exists to make them happy.

This is where think you're wrong. In many people its unconscious, but just because it's unconscious doesn't mean it's the opposite of doing something on purpose.

[brndlbc]

.....people often mistake their own joy for the joy of the dog....

 

You see this attitude occasionally in agility where the handler justifies over training because the dog "loves" it so much. Handler becomes obsessed and creates the same obsession in the dog. Sadly, sometimes the dog doesn't hold up. Solution? Retire first dog and get another dog. This was the exact program taken by one of my former students after their first dog developed crippling arthritis at the age of 5. Not sure how getting the second dog proves the first one loved agility so much.....

 

I admit that I like agility more than my dogs do even though they vibrate at the sight of equipment. They also vibrate at the sight of tug toys, balls, me opening the car door so they can get in and of course, the sight of the lake we go to hike around. All things I like to do....hmmm

[Pippin's person]

Havenjm, in post #48, you state, "The fallacy that i was pointing out is in ***people thinking that they take joy because it makes us happy****" (asterisks mine).

 

Eileen notes that no one has said this to which you reply in post #52, "I gave voice to that fallacy after what, IMO, were numerous allusions to that mode of interaction."

 

You then go on to expand the fallacy, in the same post, to people thinking dogs exist to make us happy (which you do via implication by asking Eileen about her husband)

 

Eileen responds back with your original concept of "joy" and then notes that no one on this forum is likely to believe that dogs exist to make us happy.

 

Then, in post #56, you say that Eileen's comments about taking joy in making her husband happy and vice versa is not the fallacy you had in mind, but one she is "stuck on."

 

Given that you yourself voiced this exact fallacy (as you note in post #52), it is difficult to understand what you are talking about.

 

Nowhere in the original posts did you include the critical *only* you note in your rebuttal to her point about your sliding.

 

You can't simply change the terms of the conversation and then blame your interlocutor for misunderstanding you. What, exactly, are you trying to convey?

[Eileen Stein]

I haven't slid at all, you're attempting reposition my stance by leaving out the fundamental article: "only". There is a vast difference between "dogs take joy because it makes us happy" and "dogs only take joy because it makes us happy."

 

Yes, there is, but it was you who said (in post #48) that "The fallacy that i was pointing out is in people thinking that they take joy because it makes us happy." The "fundamental article 'only'" made a more recent appearance in your sliding explication, I believe.

 

You know, I'm beginning to think my problem arose from trying to relate your disagreement/disparagement to something that was contained in the comment you quoted and seemed to be replying to, or at least to something that related somehow to something said earlier in this thread. I was looking for a nexus or connection to the rest of the thread, and I guess you didn't mean for there to be one.

 

So okay, I'll gladly agree that if there's someone somewhere who thinks that dogs only take joy because it makes us happy, or that dogs only exist to make us happy, that person is mistaken.

 

ETA: I took a long phone call in the middle of writing this post, and therefore failed to see Robin's post before I posted. I appreciate the clarity of her explanation of the difficulty I was having in this discussion.

[ejano]

That's not the concept I'm disparaging at all. It's the concept you're stuck on.

 

I haven't slid at all, you're attempting reposition my stance by leaving out the fundamental article: "only". There is a vast difference between "dogs take joy because it makes us happy" and " dogs only take joy because it makes us happy."

 

 

Again, you're failing to see the point I'm actually making, and only arguing with the point you've fabricated. My point is that people often mistake their own joy for the joy of the dog, and IMO that's due to the idea that dogs only want to please them. Numerous anecdotes and videos celebrate disfunction in dogs. The majority even. Why is that?

 

 

 

Exactly. They are taking joy from their dog, to the detriment of the dog.

 

This is where think you're wrong. In many people its unconscious, but just because it's unconscious doesn't mean it's the opposite of doing something on purpose.

 

 

Since I believe it was my post that triggered the "happiness" debate, I'll jump in, though Eileen and others all ready answered far better than I ever could and I'll likely be very sorry...

 

Here's the thing... I love my Red Dog. He's very special to me for several different reasons. I'm pretty sure that my Red Dog at least likes me. We, I believe have a certain kinship that is an ability unique to Border Collies. The other two dogs like me too, though their special person is my husband. I am a Fun Person. My husband is a Fun Person too. He lets them sit on his lap and nuzzle his ear. He also lets them get on the bed, even with muddy paws. I don't let them do that.

 

Ladybug is a rescue dog who came to us at 4 years old. Robin and Brodie came to us as puppies. Brodie was my husband's dog and it was up to him what to do with him. I tried a few other things with Robin from puppyhood through his first year -- obedience, rally, even some agility -- he did well at all those things, and he clearly wanted to please me but there was no zest in him for what he was doing. We were practicing one night in a friend's outdoor ring while she was giving a herding lesson in her pasture. He was about ten months old. We paused to watch, Robin and I. He looked at me and said, perfectly clearly, "I want to do that."

 

So we did. We've stumbled along, a few lessons here and there, some good advice, some trial and error on our own...working our way through problems. Tonight Robin, my Red Dog, is full of quiet pride. He did his first real outrun, lift and fetch -- not a big one, say about 400 feet - but it was wonderfully successful and just to show it wasn't an accident, he repeated it. Watching that red dog streak through the green grass then slow down, perfectly under control, everything movement just right...it was magic indeed. Even the sheep were happy -- they trotted along at a nice pace, respecting him, but not worried by him. So seldom is the world so right.

 

Afterward, we sat on the bench under the pear tree looking out over the paddock, watching the sun set and just feeling good about the whole thing, him and I together. He felt so relaxed when I touched him, so at ease with himself.

 

I had a moment like this with Brodie a few days ago. We take things slow and easy...a few minutes working on just one piece of the puzzle and stop when we get some success to celebrate. No pressure. When we get to the farm, Brodie's crate is rocking, he is thumping is tail so loudly -- dare I think with joy?

 

We've got all the time in the world. Some days I take Ladybug for a walk in the orchard and have a look for rabbits and a swim in the creek. That's one happy Ladybug working her way through the fields. Picture a K-Mart shopper at a blue light special...that's Ladybug looking for frogs by the creek...

 

We had a rescue dog, Scotty, who I lost several years ago, -- he'd never run in a field before he came to us. Imagine his joy in being turned loose in the near field behind our barn...

 

What I am doing with my dogs is, I think, pretty honest.

 

You might find this all perfectly silly and you are certainly free to do so but please don't kick philosophic sand in my face. Tell me instead what you do to ensure that your dogs lead joyful lives.

 

Respectfully,

Liz

[sixx]

Since I believe it was my post that triggered the "happiness" debate, I'll jump in, though Eileen and others all ready answered far better than I ever could and I'll likely be very sorry...

 

Here's the thing... I love my Red Dog. He's very special to me for several different reasons. I'm pretty sure that my Red Dog at least likes me. We, I believe have a certain kinship that is an ability unique to Border Collies. The other two dogs like me too, though their special person is my husband. I am a Fun Person. My husband is a Fun Person too. He lets them sit on his lap and nuzzle his ear. He also lets them get on the bed, even with muddy paws. I don't let them do that.

 

Ladybug is a rescue dog who came to us at 4 years old. Robin and Brodie came to us as puppies. Brodie was my husband's dog and it was up to him what to do with him. I tried a few other things with Robin from puppyhood through his first year -- obedience, rally, even some agility -- he did well at all those things, and he clearly wanted to please me but there was no zest in him for what he was doing. We were practicing one night in a friend's outdoor ring while she was giving a herding lesson in her pasture. He was about ten months old. We paused to watch, Robin and I. He looked at me and said, perfectly clearly, "I want to do that."

 

So we did. We've stumbled along, a few lessons here and there, some good advice, some trial and error on our own...working our way through problems. Tonight Robin, my Red Dog, is full of quiet pride. He did his first real outrun, lift and fetch -- not a big one, say about 400 feet - but it was wonderfully successful and just to show it wasn't an accident, he repeated it. Watching that red dog streak through the green grass then slow down, perfectly under control, everything movement just right...it was magic indeed. Even the sheep were happy -- they trotted along at a nice pace, respecting him, but not worried by him. So seldom is the world so right.

 

Afterward, we sat on the bench under the pear tree looking out over the paddock, watching the sun set and just feeling good about the whole thing, him and I together. He felt so relaxed when I touched him, so at ease with himself.

 

I had a moment like this with Brodie a few days ago. We take things slow and easy...a few minutes working on just one piece of the puzzle and stop when we get some success to celebrate. No pressure. When we get to the farm, Brodie's crate is rocking, he is thumping is tail so loudly -- dare I think with joy?

 

We've got all the time in the world. Some days I take Ladybug for a walk in the orchard and have a look for rabbits and a swim in the creek. That's one happy Ladybug working her way through the fields. Picture a K-Mart shopper at a blue light special...that's Ladybug looking for frogs by the creek...

 

We had a rescue dog, Scotty, who I lost several years ago, -- he'd never run in a field before he came to us. Imagine his joy in being turned loose in the near field behind our barn...

 

What I am doing with my dogs is, I think, pretty honest.

 

You might find this all perfectly silly and you are certainly free to do so but please don't kick philosophic sand in my face. Tell me instead what you do to ensure that your dogs lead joyful lives.

 

Respectfully,

Liz

 

 

 

[Root Beer]

Oh heck, me too! And they DO love us, you know, this I know for a fact. And I would rather be She Who Provides Good Things For Dogs than anything else I can think of, actually, because I adore the furry beasts.

 

I know this is going back a ways in the conversation, but D'Elle, I can really relate to this.

 

Back when Tessa first came here, she expected nothing good - ever. She was completely shut down. Her eyes were just "dead" most of the time.

 

When I saw the first glimmers of joy in her eyes as she started to come out of that, it was an amazing experience.

 

Now she clearly anticipates good things from me on a regular basis and that pleases me more than I can say. Of course, our relationship is not just about me being She Who Provides Good Things - there is plain old affection and wonder and her just being one of the crew in our everyday lives - but that particular element is something that I treasure because it took a long time for her to find the trust to regard me that way. As that deepens and she expects more and more good things, I am grateful to be the one who gives her those things.