Informing Peers About Border Collies -- Would love some input

[Pippin's person]

Liz, what do you mean when you say that Border Collies are "moral creatures of a higher order than the average canine?"

 

I'm definitely not a philosopher, but I'm skeptical in general of thinking about dogs as *moral* beings (Though of course that depend on how one defines morality. In the review you linked to, morality seemed to be defined as kindness, cooperation and fairness, which to me are different than morality [but without having read the book, it's probably best not to go there].)

 

Regardless, it seems to me that Border Collies are intensely willing (driven even) to cooperate with humans in joint activities in a manner that seems to differ from many (most?) other breeds of dogs (this is their famed biddability). IMO, this is what makes them both so wonderful to be with and also a challenge if you didn't intend to have your life center around doing things with your dog. I think this is also what helps them keep us humble. We are routinely reminded of the benefits and responsibilities of living a joint life in a way that can't easily be ignored (as it can be with our conspecifics).

[ejano]

Liz, what do you mean when you say that Border Collies are "moral creatures of a higher order than the average canine?"

 

I'm definitely not a philosopher, but I'm skeptical in general of thinking about dogs as *moral* beings (Though of course that depend on how one defines morality. In the review you linked to, morality seemed to be defined as kindness, cooperation and fairness, which to me are different than morality [but without having read the book, it's probably best not to go there].)

 

Regardless, it seems to me that Border Collies are intensely willing (driven even) to cooperate with humans in joint activities in a manner that seems to differ from many (most?) other breeds of dogs (this is their famed biddability). IMO, this is what makes them both so wonderful to be with and also a challenge if you didn't intend to have your life center around doing things with your dog. I think this is also what helps them keep us humble. We are routinely reminded of the benefits and responsibilities of living a joint life in a way that can't easily be ignored (as it can be with our conspecifics).

 

As a breed within a species, the Border Collie seems to me to be to be higher evolved on several different levels. The part to which I refer -- We tend to hear the phrase, "It's a dog eat dog world out there," I watch my three interact and see a sense of justice between the three of them - they demand a certain respect from one another, and expect to not be back bitten - and they expect the same of me. In this sense, they remind me (on my grumpy human days) how to be, well, moral. Another breed of dogs in a similar pack -- might not be acting this way...but maybe it's just my fancy...

 

I agree the definition of morality as defined by the text can be put up to discussion. It is pretty straightforward -- don't lie, cheat or steal. But maybe we humans complicate things too much?

 

You mentioned their biddability -- the absolute joy they take in doing something with you -- if it's hanging out clothes, for Pete's sake! This just makes me smile. I'll never forget explaining to our dear Lucky girl how to sew on a button, just to be talking with her while I was doing something (she liked to talk, our Lucky girl). She hung on my every word and I'm convinced had she possessed opposable thumbs, she would have been equal to the task.

[havenjm]

The way you lay out your presentation will depend greatly on what you hope to accomplish in doing such presentation. In the spirit of protecting the breed, I would outline a presentation which includes mlany of the of the above mentioned issues, but also delve heavily into the history of the breed. Highlighting the fact that the breed ascended to the top of the intelligence food chain by being bred for its ability to do the very complex job of managing livestock. I would then outline how the intelligence combined with a very intense desire to do that type of work makes the breed very problematic for the person who cannot offer the dog the opportunity to engage the intelligence that was bred into the dog.

 

In any presentation on dog breeds i wouldn't pass up the opportunity to inform the general public of the pitfalls of breeding animals for beauty contests, using the Labrador and Golden retrievers as examples of breeds that grew popular but fell victim to popular culture and the effects of breeding for the show ring.

[havenjm]

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[manasquan_jim]

We love our BC for all the reasons already mentioned by other people, but as long as somebody brought it up, that prey drive is really annoying. He cant be trusted off leash unless it's an area without cars, bikes and animals such as cats, rabbits, deer etc. On the leash if he sees an animal he will try to take your arm off he bolts so fast.

He loves kids and seems to know that he has to be gentle.

[Maralynn]

We love our BC for all the reasons already mentioned by other people, but as long as somebody brought it up, that prey drive is really annoying. He cant be trusted off leash unless it's an area without cars, bikes and animals such as cats, rabbits, deer etc. On the leash if he sees an animal he will try to take your arm off he bolts so fast.

He loves kids and seems to know that he has to be gentle.

 

This is a training issue - he chases becuase he has been allowed to and it's highly reinforcing. By training for self control and rock solid obedience you eliminate the chasing.

 

Out of my three high drive BCs only the youngest will take off and chase something - they've been trained not to. And with the youngest it's slowly but surely fading away with training (and not putting her in a situation to find that it is rewarding).

[sixx]

I would say that the common, although not universal, tendency for Border Collies to hyperfocus on some type of movement is important for someone new to the breed to be aware of.

 

Definitely. Just the other day North saw a fly in the corner window. She continually obsessed over the window from then on, looking for a fly. She would stand on the couch and just stare at the window (completely still) for as long as we'd let her and this happened daily.

[Sue R]

I think that perhaps the single most important thing that people need to realize is that what you do with a dog of any breed has an enormous impact on how that dog behaves. Sure, some breeds are more independent, some more pushy, and so on. But people expect a "smart" breed like the Border Collie to practically train itself, and then often have unrealistic expectations of other breeds, as well. It takes time and effort, along with understanding, to train a dog reasonably well.

 

A dog, like any other creature, is a product of its nature and its nurture. Having a "smart" dog does you little good if you don't nuture that intelligence. I had Celt in the feed store the other day and a young woman remarked to her mother, "Why can't our dog be smart like that dog? He's doing what she's telling him to do."

 

I tried to explain briefly that it was not a matter of intelligence (which does play a part) so much as training, socializing, and expecting what is appropriate for the breed of dog in question - and hers was a Maremma cross, which might predispose it to being a much more independent dog. Not a "dumb" dog as she called it, but a different kind of dog - and one that certainly did not have the training and socializing that Celt has had. I doubt I made an impression on her, though, but I tried.

 

We once had two dogs, an Airedale Terrier and a Redbone Coonhound. Everyone remarked how "smart" the Airedale was - but she wasn't, she was very biddable and eager to please. People remarked how "dumb" the Redbone was - but she wasn't, she was very smart, but she wasn't very biddable or eager to please and she was very independent.

 

Way off topic in a way, but perhaps not. People need to view the whole picture, both the dog's nature and the dog's nurturing environment. I hope your presentation went well!

[havenjm]

as long as somebody brought it up, that prey drive is really annoying.

That "annoying" prey drive is absolutely essential to what the border collie is. It's your job as a responsible owner to engage it.

[havenjm]

Definitely. Just the other day North saw a fly in the corner window. She continually obsessed over the window from then on, looking for a fly. She would stand on the couch and just stare at the window (completely still) for as long as we'd let her and this happened daily.

My question would be why you would let her continuously obsess over the window looking for a fly. If you took the time to notice she was doing it, why not take the time to teach her to disengage and channel her energy into something positive like paying attention to you?

[skiba]

I'm not sure if this is relative or even if any dog would do this and not just a Border Collie, but...

The other night around 3am I was woken up by my dog, whining and pacing. My first thought was 'Is something wrong?', thinking he was hurt or something. I soon realized that I'd forgotten to let him out one last time before we went to bed and that he really had to go. (Stupid human.)

 

For the record Oliver is the first dog I've ever been primary care giver to and I'm constantly being amazed at how smart he is. I don't know if another dog would do the same in the same situation or if it would just go on the floor and not bother waking me up. (I'm a heavy sleeper, I'm sure it took him a few minutes to wake me up.)

I guess I'm just applauding my dog's decision to wake me up to let him out instead of taking a dump on the floor.

I hope this helps your presentation in some way, lol.

[havenjm]

As a breed within a species, the Border Collie seems to me to be to be higher evolved on several different levels. The part to which I refer -- We tend to hear the phrase, "It's a dog eat dog world out there," I watch my three interact and see a sense of justice between the three of them - they demand a certain respect from one another, and expect to not be back bitten - and they expect the same of me. In this sense, they remind me (on my grumpy human days) how to be, well, moral. Another breed of dogs in a similar pack -- might not be acting this way...but maybe it's just my fancy...

 

I agree the definition of morality as defined by the text can be put up to discussion. It is pretty straightforward -- don't lie, cheat or steal. But maybe we humans complicate things too much?

 

You mentioned their biddability -- the absolute joy they take in doing something with you -- if it's hanging out clothes, for Pete's sake! This just makes me smile. I'll never forget explaining to our dear Lucky girl how to sew on a button, just to be talking with her while I was doing something (she liked to talk, our Lucky girl). She hung on my every word and I'm convinced had she possessed opposable thumbs, she would have been equal to the task.

I think you're over complicating things. Dogs do what works, people do what they think should work whether it does or not, and then make up all sorts of rationalizations as to why they should continue to do something that isn't working. Dogs prefer peaceful, ie fair, interaction because it works better. To humans, who seem to feed on injustice, or at least the perception of it, I can see how their interactions appear moral. I don't think thats at all exclusive to the border collie, however.

 

I think the notion that dogs take absolute joy in pleasing people is one of the greater misconceptions in all of dogdom, and quickly leads down a slippery slope of personification and human rationalization that is unfair to dogs. I don't pretend for a second that my dog works sheep to please me. I don't pretend that he listens in order to please me. He works sheep because every strand of his DNA is telling him to, and he listens because then he's allowed to work sheep longer.

 

When he follows me around while i hang clothes, i don't imagine he's looking for ways to please me, but that he's hoping theres a sheep in the bottom of the clothes basket and that i will give him something to do. Dogs do what works, over a few thousand years we've bred dogs that please us by doing what works for them, but i think it's selfish to imagine that our dogs exists to make us happy and often prohibits us from giving our dogs what THEY need.

[brndlbc]

 

I think the notion that dogs take absolute joy in pleasing people is one of the greater misconceptions in all of dogdom, and quickly leads down a slippery slope of personification and human rationalization that is unfair to dogs. I don't pretend for a second that my dog works sheep to please me. I don't pretend that he listens in order to please me.........Dogs do what works, over a few thousand years we've bred dogs that please us by doing what works for them, but i think it's selfish to imagine that our dogs exists to make us happy and often prohibits us from giving our dogs what THEY need.

 

 

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[Kelleybean]

My trainer says about BC's "being that smart isn't always a good thing". I recently was walking my dog in town when a couple stopped me to ask what breed she is, then the woman said to her husband, "that's the kind of dog we should get", I immediatly felt compelled to tell her how much work a BC is. I just hate that people will get a dog based on looks without researching the breed first. Too many people get BC's because they are smart and pretty, without realizing that they require a lot of interaction.

[D'Elle]

Dogs prefer peaceful, ie fair, interaction because it works better.

 

I think the notion that dogs take absolute joy in pleasing people is one of the greater misconceptions in all of dogdom, and quickly leads down a slippery slope of personification and human rationalization that is unfair to dogs.

 

When he follows me around while i hang clothes, i don't imagine he's looking for ways to please me, but that he's hoping theres a sheep in the bottom of the clothes basket and that i will give him something to do............. but i think it's selfish to imagine that our dogs exists to make us happy and often prohibits us from giving our dogs what THEY need.

I like what you said here, and agree.

I know that my dogs have a strong sense of fairness, but it isn't really morality, as such, it's just that fair=peaceful, and they are peaceful beings. If I behave in an unfair way (which is rare, but sometimes I do have a Really Bad Day)they will let me know it, and I am ashamed and straighten up.

Jester and Kit are the same way, following me around, only they aren't looking for a sheep in the clothes basket, but a ball or frisbee, or my hiking boots or something else that equals A Good Thing For Dogs. Even Kelso, my foster dog from the Texas puppy mill, who won't usually even let me touch him, and has no training, and has no desire to please me, follows me around if he thinks Something Good might happen. (I guess I specialize in Good Things For Dogs when I am home. )

[Sue R]

...a ball or frisbee, or my hiking boots or something else that equals A Good Thing For Dogs. Even Kelso, my foster dog from the Texas puppy mill, who won't usually even let me touch him, and has no training, and has no desire to please me, follows me around if he thinks Something Good might happen. (I guess I specialize in Good Things For Dogs when I am home. )

And all along, I was thinking my dogs were devoted to me. You all are right but it still doesn't dull the joy of having Celt sleeping at my feet or Megan cuddling on the bed or Dan simply looking totally expectant.

 

For my dogs to think that I (and the Chuck-It, or putting on socks or shoes or boots or jacket or hat, and the whistle and the stock stick) am the Good Things for Dogs Specialist, is okay with me. Actually, it's more than okay with me - it's great!

[sixx]

My question would be why you would let her continuously obsess over the window looking for a fly. If you took the time to notice she was doing it, why not take the time to teach her to disengage and channel her energy into something positive like paying attention to you?

 

That's a pretty big assumption...

 

I am a dog trainer. I do not allow this kind of behavior. I was just pointing out the fact that the ability to hyper focus is true, and i gave an example. In the beginning of the thread the OP asked for good stories and bad stories. This was a good example of bad behavior. North is both mentally and physically stimulated and challenged daily, yet she still displayed this behavior... not for the novice Border Collie owner. I find this information would be useful to relay to the OP's peers.

 

If you really care, here is what I did:

I used a clicker to shape a behavior I wanted, which was to target her toy duck. When she went to the window I would click any head movement towards me. I slowly introduced targeting the duck until I was able to give her her first "touch" command. This was the first step. Next I taught her the command "couch" to get on the couch. I wanted to put it on a command, since she offered the behavior on her own. Then we played a game of "couch and target." I would give her the command "couch" where she would get on the couch and wait for me to release her to the target, 5 feet away on the floor. Then I would release and say "touch" and she would target the duck. It's kind of like crate games. She had a blast and forgot about the window and was focused on me. We ended on a positive note and left the front room.

 

 

On a great note... North found her new forever home with some BC savvy people, Congratulations North!

[D'Elle]

And all along, I was thinking my dogs were devoted to me. You all are right but it still doesn't dull the joy of having Celt sleeping at my feet or Megan cuddling on the bed or Dan simply looking totally expectant.

 

For my dogs to think that I (and the Chuck-It, or putting on socks or shoes or boots or jacket or hat, and the whistle and the stock stick) am the Good Things for Dogs Specialist, is okay with me. Actually, it's more than okay with me - it's great!

Oh heck, me too! And they DO love us, you know, this I know for a fact. And I would rather be She Who Provides Good Things For Dogs than anything else I can think of, actually, because I adore the furry beasts.

[urge to herd]

Oh heck, me too! And they DO love us, you know, this I know for a fact. And I would rather be She Who Provides Good Things For Dogs than anything else I can think of, actually, because I adore the furry beasts.

 

I don't think it's either/or, it's probably both. Yes, they are very aware of where their meals, walks, jobs come from. And yes, they do love to snuggle up, wrestle with, and otherwise get silly with their humans just for the joy of it.

 

Humans are the same way. I love the work I do, AND I love getting the paycheck. I love my DH for who he is AND I love having him around to take me out to dinner, and gift me with a nice piece of jewelry every now and then.

 

Just because we all do what works, doesn't mean there isn't real love and attachment along with it.

 

Ruth

[Eileen Stein]

 

You mentioned their biddability -- the absolute joy they take in doing something with you -- if it's hanging out clothes, for Pete's sake! This just makes me smile.

. . . . I think the notion that dogs take absolute joy in pleasing people is one of the greater misconceptions in all of dogdom, and quickly leads down a slippery slope of personification and human rationalization that is unfair to dogs. I don't pretend for a second that my dog works sheep to please me. I don't pretend that he listens in order to please me. He works sheep because every strand of his DNA is telling him to, and he listens because then he's allowed to work sheep longer.

 

When he follows me around while i hang clothes, i don't imagine he's looking for ways to please me, but that he's hoping theres a sheep in the bottom of the clothes basket and that i will give him something to do. Dogs do what works, over a few thousand years we've bred dogs that please us by doing what works for them, but i think it's selfish to imagine that our dogs exists to make us happy and often prohibits us from giving our dogs what THEY need.

 

You know, my dogs are smart enough to know that there are no sheep in the bottom of the clothes basket, and yet they follow me anyway. Not because they're looking for ways to please me (and ejano never said that was why -- nor did she say that dogs work sheep to please us or that dogs exist to make us happy). It's because they like being with me. They like doing things with me, even if it's not their favorite thing that we're doing, and even if they know from experience that I'm not going to be doing any of their favorite things any time soon.

 

Why do they like this? I don't know. Maybe because dogs back in their ancestry who showed that trait were the ones who got bred. Maybe because it's boring to lie there doing nothing, and I'm the most interesting thing around. Maybe because they're pack animals, and just moving in the company of the leading member of their group is pleasurable to them. Maybe for evolutionary reasons they've come to find a feeling of pleasure and "all's right with the world" in cooperating with their pack leader. Maybe it's because they like me -- they really, really like me. Maybe it's all of these things -- who knows? But to me it's silly to deny what I see every day -- the absolute joy most border collies take in doing something with you -- and to try instead to convert that into "doing what works for them" in some superficial way.

[brndlbc]

Usually when two divergent species come together in association there is some sort of symbiotic relationship there. Every now and then a relationship will form that seems to be just.... friendship.

 

http://www.elephants.com/tarra/TarraBella.php

[havenjm]

That's a pretty big assumption...

 

I am a dog trainer. I do not allow this kind of behavior. I was just pointing out the fact that the ability to hyper focus is true, and i gave an example. In the beginning of the thread the OP asked for good stories and bad stories. This was a good example of bad behavior. North is both mentally and physically stimulated and challenged daily, yet she still displayed this behavior... not for the novice Border Collie owner. I find this information would be useful to relay to the OP's peers.

I don't think I'm assuming anything. You stated yourself that this behavior went on daily. The BCs ability to focus is true. Terms like hyper and obsess become relevant when people fail to channel the focus correctly or simply allow the dog to create their own outlets for that focus.

If you really care, here is what I did:

I used a clicker to shape a behavior I wanted, which was to target her toy duck. When she went to the window I would click any head movement towards me. I slowly introduced targeting the duck until I was able to give her her first "touch" command. This was the first step. Next I taught her the command "couch" to get on the couch. I wanted to put it on a command, since she offered the behavior on her own. Then we played a game of "couch and target." I would give her the command "couch" where she would get on the couch and wait for me to release her to the target, 5 feet away on the floor. Then I would release and say "touch" and she would target the duck. It's kind of like crate games. She had a blast and forgot about the window and was focused on me. We ended on a positive note and left the front room.

That seems like a lot of work to teach her to hyper focus on a duck instead of a fly.

[havenjm]

You know, my dogs are smart enough to know that there are no sheep in the bottom of the clothes basket, and yet they follow me anyway. Not because they're looking for ways to please me (and ejano never said that was why -- nor did she say that dogs work sheep to please us or that dogs exist to make us happy). It's because they like being with me. They like doing things with me, even if it's not their favorite thing that we're doing, and even if they know from experience that I'm not going to be doing any of their favorite things any time soon.

 

Why do they like this? I don't know. Maybe because dogs back in their ancestry who showed that trait were the ones who got bred. Maybe because it's boring to lie there doing nothing, and I'm the most interesting thing around. Maybe because they're pack animals, and just moving in the company of the leading member of their group is pleasurable to them. Maybe for evolutionary reasons they've come to find a feeling of pleasure and "all's right with the world" in cooperating with their pack leader. Maybe it's because they like me -- they really, really like me. Maybe it's all of these things -- who knows? But to me it's silly to deny what I see every day -- the absolute joy most border collies take in doing something with you -- and to try instead to convert that into "doing what works for them" in some superficial way.

I think you've mistaken my point, almost completely. Nowhere did I say, or imply that dogs don't take joy in doing things with us, or in being with us. The fallacy that i was pointing out is in people thinking that they take joy because it makes us happy. There is a black and white difference between the two concepts.

 

One celebrates the human/dog relationship, and the other denies the needs of the dog and makes the entire relationship human centric.

[havenjm]

Oh heck, me too! And they DO love us, you know, this I know for a fact. And I would rather be She Who Provides Good Things For Dogs than anything else I can think of, actually, because I adore the furry beasts.

Of course they love us. I'm pointing out the notion that its selfish to assume they love us for the sole reason that they get to make us happy. I think that mentality prohibits many people from giving dogs what they really need, and you end up with horribly lopsided relationships where people feel great because they're getting "unconditional love", but the dog isn't getting anything that a dog really needs.

 

Instead they get treats because that makes the person feel good, and the dog ends up morbidly obese with chronic arthritis. Just one example.

[Eileen Stein]

I think you've mistaken my point, almost completely. Nowhere did I say, or imply that dogs don't take joy in doing things with us, or in being with us. The fallacy that i was pointing out is in people thinking that they take joy because it makes us happy. There is a black and white difference between the two concepts.

 

One celebrates the human/dog relationship, and the other denies the needs of the dog and makes the entire relationship human centric.

 

Who voiced that "fallacy"? Certainly not the person whose post you quoted and were apparently replying to. What she spoke of was "the absolute joy they take in doing something with you."

 

Not that I think there's a black and white difference between the two concepts. If anyone HAD said that "dogs take joy because it makes us happy," I would have to explore what they meant by that -- WHY, in their opinion, the dogs take joy because it makes us happy -- before I could conclude that the difference between what they're saying and what you think they should say is anything more than semantics. There's a lot of mutual joy in dog-person relationships, and I don't think anyone who observes that they seem to enjoy our happiness, just as we enjoy theirs, is expressing a pathological or destructive concept.

 

Instead they get treats because that makes the person feel good, and the dog ends up morbidly obese with chronic arthritis. Just one example.

 

Why on earth would treating to the point of morbid obesity result from people thinking that dogs take joy in making us happy? If the dog takes joy just from making us happy, why would they need treats? You'd be more likely to give them treats if you believed they're just "doing what works for them" in seeming to love you, because you'd be afraid if you didn't give them the treats they'd decide following you and listening to you wasn't "working for them" and would stop doing it.