Which kibble?

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Canine Nutritionists,

 

I feed kibble and when I’m butchering: bones and scraps. My dogs kill an ocassional small creature and browse on sheep poop. My diet dogs get half and half kibble and unsalted green beans. When I’m on the road, they get fed twice a day, doggy bag scraps and a sprinkling of Wendy Vollhard’s enduro formula.

 

I don’t worry about dog food - they adapted without problems to a UK diet. On the road I buy whatever expensive WalMart dog food is available in 8 pound bags.

 

But Fly has anallergy and she scratches. To cure it, Bev Lambert fed her “the dog food with the wolf on the front.” So I did too and, yes, Fly stopped scratching.

 

Problem is, wolfy is expensive and won’t be available in Bowman South Dakota or the Pecos Truckstop in West Texas.

 

SO here’s my question. Can anyone suggest a more widely available dog food. Be nice if it’s cheaper too.

 

Thanks for your advice.

 

Donald McCaig

 

 

I am feeding Exclusive - Lamb & Rice Adult Formula which makes Fly scratch

 

 

Ingredients:

Lamb, lamb meal, rice flour, brewers rice, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal,

chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E), dried beet pulp, flaxseed, dried egg product, natural flavor, fish meal, brewers dried yeast, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid

 

Guaranteed Analysis

Protein: 22%

Fat: 12%

Fiber: 3%

Moisture: 10%

 

The wolf dog food is:Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken. Protein seems high to me.

 

 

Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Potato Starch, Turkey Meal, Peas, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), Potatoes, Tomato Pomace (source of Lycopene), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flaxseed (source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids), Alfalfa Meal, Whole Carrots, Whole Sweet Potatoes, Blueberries, Cranberries, Barley Grass, Dried Parsley, Dried Kelp, Taurine, Yucca Shidigera Extract, L-Carnitine, L-Lysine, Turmeric, Oil of Rosemary, Beta Carotene, Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Niacin (Vitamin B3), d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Biotin (Vitamin B7), Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Choline Chloride, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Salt, Caramel, Potassium Chloride, Dried Yeast (source of Saccharomyces cerevisiae), Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product, Dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

 

 

Guaranteed Analysis

Crude Protein 34.0% min

Crude Fat 15.0% min

Crude Fiber 6.5% max

Moisture 10.0% max

Calcium 1.3% min

Phosphorus 0.9% min

Omega 3 Fatty Acids* 0.3% min

Omega 6 Fatty Acids* 3.0% min*Not recognized as an essential nutrient by AAFCO Pet Food Nutrient Profiles.

[Mark Billadeau]

Donald,

 

Renee had a dog that was allergic to lamb/mutton. Anytime this dog got that source of protein (in kibble or raw) she got bad gas and was very itchy.

The two kibbles you list have the major difference in the protein source; I'd try a small bag of a less expensive and readily available kibble made from chicken.

 

Mark

 

 

[rushdoggie]

Do you have access to a Cosco? The Kirkland Chicken food is decently priced and I know a lot of people who use it and like it.

[Crawford Dogs]

I'd recommend looking into Proplan's Sensitive Skin formula. I feed Proplan because all my veterinarian friends who have border collies feed it and its the only food I've found that my allergy dogs (they were all spayed) did well on. Also the Proplan performance is great for the high metabolism dogs- I usually call it "Loki's Rocket Fuel" since Loki needs 1200 kcal/day for maintenance and its the only food I've found that can keep up with his energy needs. I've actually had some allergy dogs do well on Proplan's maintence formula as well. Proplan is a bit pricey (just under $40 for 37 lbs) but you can join ProClub and get coupons, free checks to your vet, etc. Also Proplan is almost always on sale at Petsmart/Petcos & coupons are a dime a dozen- I rarely go buy some without a coupon in hand!

 

P.S. Nice to hear from you again Donald- I love your stories and missed you!

[Pam Wolf]

Had a test run with the Costco stuff the working dogs lost weight and condition on it when it was cold and they were running hard. And the stools were gummy and not pleasant. It may be a good food for the average pet but I won't use it again for working dogs.

[gcv-border]

Just a couple of thoughts:

I agree that the most obvious difference appears to be the protein source. Does Exclusive (is that a Southern States brand?) come in chicken? Many dogs with allergies seem to have a problem with the grain components within feed, but both of your kibbles seem to be fairly "grain-free" - or at least lower in grain (vs. a kibble with corn as the 1st ingredient. Yikes!)

 

Logistically, would it be too much trouble to send kibble ahead to folks you are visiting on your travels? (I am guessing you want to 'travel light' and not carry a bag of kibble with you?) Not sure if this makes economic sense on one level, but on another level compare using a kibble that keeps a dog allergy-free (i.e. no expensive visits to the vet!!) vs. sending food ahead or bringing food with you so that Fly can stay on a diet that prevents symptoms.

 

Good Luck, allergies can be a tough nut to crack.

 

Jovi

[toney]

Blue Buffalo is sold in Tractor Supply stores around here. And the franchise has really expanded over the last few years, so it's possible the "wolf brand" may be easier to find than expected.

[Joellen]

I am not a nutritionist, but I agree, it sounds like the grain and/or the protein source is giving Fly the problems. I would stick to a grain free, chicken based formula. Unfortunately, you kind of get what you pay for, but that being said, you should also be able to feed less and keep the condition on a higher quality food because the calories are usually denser and the food better utilized. Plus, your dogs will be healthier, too. I would get the bigger bags and find a way to store it, at least that will buy you time if you can't find what you need, plus the bigger bags, pound for pound, are way cheaper.

 

If you do feed a food with grain, I would stay away from corn, wheat, and soy. They tend to be the biggest culprits in causing allergic reactions.

 

I happen to be feeding 3 different foods right now to my pack because of individual needs. 4 of my BCs get Wellness Supermix chicken formula, which does have grain. 1 BC gets Instinct, because she has cancer and needs a high protein, high fat, low carb diet, it is grain free. My Rottweiler gets Taste Of The Wild lamb, he gets gas from chicken, this is also grain free.

 

Hope this helps some.

[Liz P]

If you want optimal performance out of your dogs you really need to feed them a quality diet. Diet has a big influence on speed, endurance and heat tolerance.

 

34% protein is not too high, but 12% to 15% fat might be quite low depending on how much work you ask out of your dog. I would be giving that much fat to a pet, retired dog, weekend warrior or light duty working dog.

 

The Pro Plan Sensitive Skin and Stomach is a great food for budget feeding allergic dogs that are not being asked to work hard. It should be widely available in pet stores and feed stores but not Walmart.

 

ETA, at bulk prices I am getting Red Paw Perform32 for just over $1/lb and the PowerEdge32 for just under $1/lb. It is not widely available but it has been worth the effort to get it. The dogs are doing fabulous on it. They look sleek and well muscled, their heat tolerance and endurance have improved and I am feeding a lot less in volume (about 1/3 to 1/2 less). Prior to switching I was rotating several more widely available working dog formulas but was not happy with them.

[bc friend]

I have fed Nature's Recipe grain-free chicken formula for the last few years- they have a number of different formulas and are available at Petco or Petsmart and some feed stores. Their website has a store locator. My dogs maintain a good weight, no skin or coat issues, etc. The price is consistent with Pro Plan.

[Gloria Atwater]

I can't swear to availability in points east or south, but right now I'm feeding a 50/50 mix of "Chicken Soup For The Dog Lover's Soul," Adult formula kibble and "Premium Edge Skin & Coat." CS gets its protein from chicken and fish, and the PE skin & coat gets it from salmon. Both have 24-25% protein.

 

On this mix (or either kibble), our dogs' poop is moderate-sized and firm, and they look and act the pictures of health. Shiny coats, lots of energy. The only incidents of runny poop we have are when someone gets into the chicken doo in the pasture or gobble one of our cats' dead treasures.

 

Links for comparison:

http://www.petfooddirect.com/Product/4652/Premium-Edge-Adult-Dog-Skin-and-Coat-Salmon,-Potatoes-and-Vegetables-Formula

 

http://www.petfooddirect.com/Product/45/Chicken-Soup-For-The-Dog-Lovers-Soul-Adult-Dog-Formula

 

Hope this helps.

 

~ Gloria

P.S.

These are both feed store brands, which may or may not improve availability.

[Laura L]

Donald,

I had a dog that was allergic to lamb too. I feed Diamond Naturals Chicken & Rice (readily available in lots of places) and sometimes I feed Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul.

Laura

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Nutritionists,

 

Thanks for your helpful advice. After I run out of Wolfy I'll try a small bag of chicken exclusive. I was pleased to learn that Diamond is available in Bowman ND.

 

Donald

[3msmom]

Most dog foods (and vets) recommend mixing the foods when you cnange over so you might want to buy the new food BEFORE you run out of "wolfy" and mix the new in at increasing amounts until changed over.

[Jedismom]

If the grain turns out to be the culprit, Nutrisource makes a fairly inexpensive grain free kibble. One of the employees at my pet food store says his dogs do very well on it. It also has a lower protein amount than the Blue Wilderness. It is widely available, with lots of vendors in North Dakota.

 

http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutrisource/products/gf_chicken

[Pam Wolf]

Infinia is also a very good grain free. I've fed the bison and the salmon formulas with good results

[gcv-border]

I was interested in the Diamond dog food since it was mentioned in this thread several times - so I surfed through their website.

 

FYI -- Diamond dog food does have grain sources in it - usually 2nd and 3rd ingredients. The company does make a Diamond Naturals line which is corn- soy- and grain-free.

 

The website also has a store locator feature.

 

Jovi

[NCStarkey]

Hi Donald,

 

I have been feeding Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice to my Border Collies and Maremmas for a number of years, and I have been very pleased with the results. However, the formula for this product and the Exclusive Lamb and Rice product is quite similar, so the Diamond Naturals Lamb product may also cause Fly to scratch. Should lamb be the source of Fly's itchiness, then I would suggest (as others have) Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice formula. These products are reasonably priced and available in most places around the country.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Nutritionists,

 

Ms. 3msmom writes:

 

"Most dog foods (and vets) recommend mixing the foods when you cnange over so you might want to buy the new food BEFORE you run out of "wolfy" and mix the new in at increasing amounts until changed over."

 

Some years ago, on the theory that my dogs guts were sensitive I carried home water and home feed with me. Hard to do when I'm flying them.

 

Turns out: dogs aren't sheep.

 

So long as I don't add fatty doggybag scraps (and only a few scraps per dog) they do fine on motel water and any old (high dollar) WalMart (sometimes truckstop) feed. Sheep DO need a gradual changeover.

 

Nowadays I rarely carry more dog food than will cover me until I can get to a store.

 

Donald McCaig

[Sue R]

Well, I am firmly in the "make the change gradual" camp because I have found that sudden diet changes can bother some dogs - and absolutely have no ill effects on others. Whatever works for you, works!

 

I also feed Diamond Naturals Chicken and Rice. I find it very affordable, quite available, and with an ingredients list that I feel is quite reasonable. I supplement a bit of fat, and like to feed a raw egg daily (the dogs like that, too), some raw meat daily (when I have it), and some cooked veggies (for my dogs that seem to like some fiber in their diets). Sometimes, some homemade yogurt goes in the bowl (I know, I digress, as these add-ons are not travel foods).

 

We once had an Aussie who scratched. Our vet recommended avoiding beef in Mac's kibble as he thought it could allergy to beef. A dog food change to a poultry-based food and the problem was solved. That would not have worked for another dog we had who would become violently ill with even the smallest ingestion of turkey.

 

Good luck with your trip!

[3msmom]

I have several dogs whose guts must be cast iron, nothing seems to bother them, but have others that a rapid change in food or an addition of scraps or a too fatty beef bone is good for three or more days of cleaning up diarrehea splattered crates for several feet in any direction. Not worth it in my book!

[AW1688]

I'm a newcomer to herding, but not to the dog world in general. I've found that some of my dogs can do fine with changing, but others will get sick, so I tend to err on the side of caution and change over gradually. I also feed two different kinds of food in case only one is available or one has a recall, they still have one they're used to. I feed Diamond Naturals (either large breed puppy lamb and rice since, extreme athlete chicken and rice, or adult chicken and rice to give variety) and Blue Buffalo Chicken and Brown Rice for adults. This also helps bring down the cost since Diamond Naturals is much cheaper than Blue Buffalo. Have you tried feeding just chicken or fish Blue Buffalo instead of Blue Wilderness? The wilderness is really expensive. Just a thought!